Two things: Arthritis and Asthma

[Nightstrike]

one- My asthma.
What are some TCM stuff to deal with this
another
knuckles, I have arhritus/parkinsons in teh family, and allready my knuckles are sore and aching, now what am I supposed to do for striking?
and how is a good way to treat my knuckles and ways to do open hand strikes?
thanks.

[Maestro]

conditioning..for your hands before you go making makiwara, for the finger tips make a cranes beak and strike your palm, you should build up your resistance so that you can whack your hand full force..this trains the palm as well

knife hand strike your first row of knuckles..again you should build up to a high level of resistance where you can bang em real good

after that you know you need something harder

amitabha

[doc]

Remind me to get back to this. This is going to be a long one.

[emre]

Maestro, he says his knuckles are aching and you tell him to hit hard objects to condition his hands?

Nightstrike, I don't know about the TCM way of dealing with Asthma but practicing qigong might help. It would definitely help your hands.

You haven't told us how your hands got into their current condition, why do your knuckles ache? Did you hit hard objects or did it just happen from working with a punching bag? If you didn't abuse them and they still ache, you might want to evaluate your eating habits to begin with. If you did abuse them, then stop doing so.

Either way, avoid anything that makes your knuckles hurt in anyway until they're healed completely. Don't hit anything, not even punching bags. Practice a lot of qigong, Yi Jin Jing would be very good, practice for at least one hour everyday.

Don't even think about conditioning your hands until they're completely healthy.

[doc]

You might want to consider not conditioning your hands at all. I'm surmising that you're relatively young, as most people who visit this forum are. And, if you've got arthritis already, more than likely it's not DJD (degenerative joint disease), which older people get from wear and tear. Rheumatoid arthritis (RA) can hit younger people, with some pretty devastating results. RA results from an autoimmune disorder, where the body's immune system attacks various tissues of the body, including the joint tissue. Inflammation of the joints results in pain, deformity, and destruction.

Regardless of what kind of arthritis you've got, hand conditioning is probably not a good idea. Repeated trauma to the hands, though from what I've heard, does not cause DJD in normal individuals (a point that can be discussed, as I tend to question that belief, just look at some martial artist's knuckles) can result in inflammation and eventual joint damage. Repeated trauma to someone who has arthritis will only aggravate an already bad condition. It's not worth it.

Some exercises, found in qi gong, work the hands and fingers, which might be good for you. Gentle exercises to keep the joints mobile is good in any type of arthritis, within reason, and within your limits. Immobility is not good, though, in most people with RA, this tends to be the end result to some degree. Practicing gong fu is not going to hurt your hands, as long as you don't strike anything. If some of the hand movements result in pain, you can always alter the fists to an open hand or knife strike.

Again, hand conditioning, even in normal individuals, might result in long term damage to the delicate joint structures of the hands. It must be done with care, slowly, and carefully, with patience, and without overdoing it. Those with diseases of the joint structures of the hands would most likely be better off avoiding it altogether.

[daodejing]

Ok, so here's a bit of advice for anyone who ever asks about tcm remedies for their medical conditions. The equivilent western diagnosis is not enough to make a tcm diagnosis.

For example, arthritis is usually called Bi pain in TCM (bi pronounced "bee" and meaning a painful obstruction of the joints). There are many types of bi pain, all of which involve some dampness. You can have cold damp bi, damp heat bi, wind cold bi, wind damp bi, wind damp heat bi, and more. It all depends on the presentation of the pain and the accompanying signs and symptoms.

Having asthma is not enough to make a TCM diagnosis. There are dozens of different patterns that can present with asthma. The accompanying signs and symptoms are neccessary for differentiation. For example, how long have you had asthma? What circumstances make your asthma worse? Do you find it harder to inhale than to exhale? Do you have soreness or weakness in the low back or knees? Do you have a productive or non productive cough? If you have a productive cough what color is the phlegm? What is your diet like? How are your bowel movements? Does your urine tend to be more watery and clear or is it dark yellow and scanty? Do you get frequent colds, sore throats, or sinus infections?

All of this and more has an impact on diagnosis. Until I know all that stuff, I can't honestly tell you anything about how to help your asthma, except to practice qigong everyday.

Oh yeah, if you're coughing up yellow phlegm, and the tip of your tongue is red, it wouldn't hurt you to eat pears every day, but only between 11 am and 3 pm.

[Maestro]

i didnt tell him to hit "hard" objects

"knuckles, I have arhritus/parkinsons in teh family, and allready my knuckles are sore and aching, now what am I supposed to do for striking?"

he never said he had arthritus or parkinsons, he says his knuckles are sore, well for what reason?

anyhow, doc always likes to take a negative standpoint towards conditioning, for what reasons i do not know, regardless, you dont want to abandon conditioning, infact hand and arm conditioning is key to training TCMA. like my sifu says, TCMA is like dropping water in a bucket, you progress at a steady rate, i never said you should start whacking the hell outta your hands or deforming them, my sifus hands arent deformed at all, neither are his arms, but his arms are hard as wood and his hands are conditioned to a point where he can do all those exercises i talked about above at full force, try em out, they hurt pretty bad if you havent done any conditioning, but if your gonna do em, take your time, use dragon balm or DDJ or something, i use both, usually only the jow for my arms though

to progress in TCMA you need to train smart and regularly, this kid wants to be able to strike, he should condition, just as all of us do or should

amitabha

[doc]

I have nothing against conditioning. I actually do it myself, to some degree. I have problems with people who do conditioning wrong, or who do conditioning when their medical condition warrants against such practice.

[doc]

Dao, very astute about the asthma stuff. From my experience with a bunch of "lung specialists" in the TCM field, in China, I've gotten a far less critical evaluation.

I've looked into various TCM remedies for bronchospastic disease. From my evaluation of this stuff, I find most of it to be ephedra based products. It works, mainly because ephedra is a sympathomimetic agent which will cause bronchodilation. The problem is, the dosage suggested can me like using a hand grenade to kill a mosquito.

One doctor had me take these "ram horn" pills, large things that I had to tear apart and roll into little balls to swallow. Not bad, actually found it helpful. Some teas that I took I also thought had helped, but they also gave me one hell of a headache at times. I knew my blood pressure was elevated from the TCM medications. Another doctor gave me a bottle of these little brown balls, much easier to swallow, but she had wanted me to take 15 of them, three times a day. I thought it was the better part of valor to take five three times a day, but even at that dosage, my blood pressure became elevated, and I had facial flushing. I reduced the dose to two balls, twice a day, or as needed, and I find that to be much better tolerated. I also think, though I haven't really done any sort of scientific studies on this, that they do something beneficial.

I'm not against this stuff, I just think that it's not looked upon in a scientific fashion. Telling me to take fifteen balls three times a day because I'm a big guy, as opposed to five balls three times a day (for the average Chinese), is just a wrong guestimate, with no data to support it. It reminds me of the tea I drank a year ago, that blew my blood pressure through the roof. I think western medicines, which China is starting to lean towards now, is more accurately dosed, with less side effects. The actions of the western medicines for asthma are more effective, more directed towards the disease state, and are more carefully evaluated.

Oh, and Maestro, I've had some difficulty typing these last few days. Banged my hand up during some Muay Thai sparring. Guess I should condition them some more...

[Maestro]

indeed! maybe if you could spare an hour a day you could become an iron palm master! heheheh

what part of your hand did you hurt? the last 2 fingers usually get alot of people who arent used to holding a tight fist, i doubt that was the case

hope you got dragon balm! dragon balm rules

amitabha

[doc]

Stubbed my first metacarpal, didn't have my hand tight enough in these Muay Thai gloves. They're difficult to keep a tight hand in, until the gloves are really, really beat up and torn apart, lol.

[zachsan]

haha, maybe that's the idea.

[daodejing]

Doc, I'm only a second year medical student now, and I can tell you right away ephedra is not a proper herb to be using for chronic spastic bronchitis. Ephedra releases the exterior, and is great for acute respiratory conditions where the pathogen is still in the exterior lair and needs to be released from the body (which is usually done by inducing diaphoresis, with a diaphoretic medication like ephedra stem).

The problem is, even after the communist government standarized the medicine, its still a long way from being standardized. From what I've heard, the best TCM hospitals in the world are in south korea.