fareheit 9/11 review - Roger Ebert

[zachsan]

lol, because they loved us before.

i'm not sure it was a good idea to go to iraq. but, if we take care of it the way we should - which means a lot of money and, sadly, more lives yet - it has the potential of being an incredible force of change in the middle east. the reasons for going there may have been questionable, but the good that could potentially come from it really can't be disputed.

none of us like the saudis, but we're dependant on them for oil, and as a key ally in the mideast political climate. ok. let's say we turn iraq into a functional democracy and oil market. we won't need the saudis anymore, and they'll know it. and they'll change their policies because they'll be scared ****less of us.

instead of complaining about how saddam came into power decades ago, let's keep our eyes on the road.

[lester1/2jr]

it may have negative repurcussion too. Less people may want to join the army. Bin laden has already used it to recruit tons of new terrorists. Alot of people think the only reason Germnay and France and Russia didn't back us in this effort is because they were buying oil from him but I don't think that's true. I think they knew ho crazy it would be if we went in there. As crazy as going in to any of those friggin countries. Imagine if we went in to syria. Every jihadi in the world would come there. That's what's happening in Iraq too. The reason rumsfelt and those guys thought iraq was "do-able" was because they thought that wouldn't happen, which is basically admitting they knew he had nothing to do with terrorism.

[zachsan]

well, that's a whole lot of speculation on motive for one paragraph, and i won't comment on all that. but anyway, sure, it could have negative repercussions, but only if we handle the situation irresponsibly, that is, fail to take what steps are necessary to ensure security. and if we make the required sacrifices, that goal is not so far out of reach as some would have us believe. my point is, we're there already, so we'd better make sure that we take those steps.

[Steve]

Wow, you guys have been busy this morning... I need to go back and read everything again, but from what I skimmed thru, looks like no personal attacks or name-calling, good debate. Thank You.

[dogchow108]

GODDAMNIT i couldnt resist, ill just post this and then i really will be done with this stupid thread-

Originally posted by lester1/2jr
Who has 2 wars in one presidential term?

Are you seriously asking this??? About Bush??? LOOK AT OUR ENEMIES!!! This logic is flawed beyond excuse.

have a nice day, and Lester nothing personal you just pissed me off. I love you, kisses.

[RJW]

http://jam.canoe.ca/JamMovies/jul28_binladin-ap.html

Wednesday, July 28, 2004

Bin Laden brother disputes Moore film

PARIS (AP) -- A half-brother of Osama bin Laden says he enjoyed most of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11," except for what he called "inaccuracies" about his family.

"It's a moving film," Yeslam Binladin, a Geneva-based tycoon and one of the
al-Qaida leader's 54 siblings, said in an interview with the French magazine VSD.

"I even laughed at times," said Binladin, adding, "but a lot less when he states errors or inaccuracies about my family, knowing perfectly well that he's deceiving the public."

In the film, Moore states that U.S. President George W. Bush tried to cover up his family's longtime business and personal ties to the family of Osama bin Laden and other
prominent Saudis because many of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.


One of his main points is that the U.S. administration helped 142 Saudis -- including two dozen members of bin Laden's family -- fly out of the United States two days after the Sept. 11 attacks, even though commercial air space was closed.

"That's false and can be verified by anyone," said the Saudi-born Binladin, who intentionally spells his name differently from Osama, the prime suspect in the Sept. 11 attacks. "They benefited from no exceptional authorization to leave American territory."

A recent 9/11 panel report states that the chartered flights took place starting Sept. 14, once airspace had reopened.

Binladin, who has lived in Geneva for many years and has Swiss citizenship, told the magazine that his U.S.-based family members flew into Geneva on Sept. 20 before taking off again for Saudi Arabia.

The movie also states that several family members attended a 2001 wedding of one of Osama bin Laden's sons in Afghanistan -- a claim Binladin says is exaggerated.

"Nobody from my family was at this wedding in Afghanistan except for the mother of Osama," said Binladin. Yeslam and Osama are among the 54 sons and daughters of the late Saudi construction magnate Mohammed bin Laden and his 22 wives.

Binladin, the founder of Geneva-based financial company Sico, said the last time he saw his younger half-brother was before Osama left Saudi Arabia in 1981.

[meattosser]

Dogchow, I wasn't just hating on Bush, I guess you don't seem to read everything I say very accurately. I was often pointing out events that occurred in the 1960's, well before Dubya ever got into power. And I wasn't necessarily "Dwelling" on the past. I simply pointed those details out because I felt that people should know how these dictators get into power in the first place. Many times its our great nation's foreign policy that comes back to bite us in the ass. I agree with Zachsan though, that we're in this ****hole mess now, so we should now look forward and try to hope for the best.

P.S. Dogchow, "Bush is bad and we should all hug trees"? What the hell man, hahaha. Now you're just running out of things to say. ANY president, whether Bush or whoever, that knowingly supports and arms dictators, or trains extremists (mujihadeen), for self-serving corporate/military industry reasons, is pretty much a certified piece of trash in my book, and deserves to be given a swift elbow to the face.

Anyway folks, stay strong and keep an open mind...

[zachsan]

meattosser, we do have a history of helping dictators when it suits our interests. that was during the cold war, though, when we were scared ****less that at any moment the world would come to an end in nuclear holocaust, and we were willing to take extreme measures to keep that from happening, even temporarily going against our own ideals of democracy.

we were protecting our country and the world. while some of the results of our actions might not be something to cheer about, to focus on those mistakes, without mentioning the little fact that we resolved a potentially apocalyptic conflict, is incredibly misleading.

the united states of america is a capitalist country. to much of the world, then, anything we do to defend ourselves is really just for "self-serving corporate/military industry reasons". it's this kind of gross oversimplification that anti-american groups use to recruit. but i would hope that, in our own country, we would know the difference.

[meattosser]

Zachsan, everything that was done during the cold war wasn't necessary man. The leaders in our government at that time weren't exactly "scared ****less" as much as you may think. Many times, self-serving interests came as priority BEFORE the safety of our people at home in US. Many times it's a misconception that many people here at home believe those steps were NECESSARY to survive against the "soviet threat". I guess in the end, the propoganda here at home worked, in a way. They kept almost every citizen "Scared ****less" indeed; the so-called Soviet threat was grossly exaggerated man, it was meant for people to stay in a stasis of fear. It's common logic, when the masses are kept in fear, they ask less questions, and are more willing to give up their personal freedoms. It's simple psychology. If I remember correctly, it was Herman Goehring (from the Nazi Nuremberg trials) that responded this, after he was asked how did they succeed in convincing his people to support their aggressive wars, he stated that it doesn't matter what type of government your in, whether it's a democratic monarchy, Communist, Capitalist, socialist democracy, etc., all you have to do is make the people AFRAID, keep them in a state of fear, then when others protest against it, call them un-patriotic, or traitors, (I forgot where the exact quote was, I'll try to find it), then basically after that, you could have the whole country rallying for you.

I'll use Augosto Pinochet as an example of unnecessary wars. Why the **** was that a NECESSARY war for the safety of Americans? Many of our 'dirty little wars' during that time stopped people from gaining independence in THEIR OWN COUNTRY. That, to me, is disgusting, since our own nation needed a violent revolution to gain its own freedom. What US Foreign Policy has shown for the past 40 or so years is that it cares more for stability in foreign regions, whether or not those people are oppressed, what they want is stability; that's one of the reasons why Saddam was so well-liked and helped for so many years. He kept the nation stable; brutalized the **** out of it, but stable nonetheless. This makes it easier for companies to come in and make business. Often, it all comes down to making business. Not always, but often, sadly, it does. But all of this is in the past now, it cannot be changed. What I hope now is that our leaders today do not continue to make these horrendous mistakes in the future. Because it's always the people that end up suffering, not the faggot ass politicians. Like you had stated before Zach, we should now look to what's going on today, the past is the past and cannot be changed.

[meattosser]

On a side note, Zachsan, I just noticed how many posts you have. Damn! I remember when we had more or less the same amount of posts, now you beat me by about 300, damn hahaha. You are now officially one of the immortals of the Russbo community.

[zachsan]

no meat, i just have a very, very big mouth. when the server crashed a few days ago, the first thing it was telling me was that i couldn't post more than once every 60 seconds, when i hadn't posted at all. i was sure this was some sick joke on doc's part to tell me that i need to keep my mouth shut.

anyway, meat. that post was chock full of unsubstantiated claims about motive. i don't really want to get into an historical debate, i really only meant to point out my problem with second-guessing decisions that could be the reason we are alive today. i don't mean this to say that the ends justify the means, not at all... i'm just saying that it's wrong to concentrate on the decisions we made without any mention whatsoever that the cold war happened to be going on at the same time.

and come on man, honestly, both of us were born in 1983. when the cold war ended, we were both asking ourselves when puberty was gonna start. it's saying a hell of a lot to assert that we were never in that much danger, when we didn't live through it.

[meattosser]

Zachsan said: "...i'm just saying that it's wrong to concentrate on the decisions we made without any mention whatsoever that the cold war happened to be going on at the same time."

Actually, I very much mentioned that the cold war was going on. I apologize if I didn't state that clearly enough.

Good ol' Zachsan Also Said: "...and come on man, honestly, both of us were born in 1983. when the cold war ended, we were both asking ourselves when puberty was gonna start. it's saying a hell of a lot to assert that we were never in that much danger, when we didn't live through it."

Hahaha, indeed, we are still only 20-21 years old. All the same though, since we didn't live through most of it, you can't go around saying that we actually WERE indeed in that much danger and all actions taken were for American people's safety. Besides, I have many good friends/family that DID live through that time. Indeed, and if someone during that time was scared ****less, it pretty much proves my point to begin with: that the government's domestic agenda was to successfully keep the average citizen in fear of the "Evil Empire". Worked for the most part.

P.S. On a side note, I noticed you got the Lou Reed quote. You know that Lou studies Chen Taiji with famed master Guangyi-Ren?

[doc]

Indeed, and if someone during that time was scared ****less, it pretty much proves my point to begin with: that the government's domestic agenda was to successfully keep the average citizen in fear of the "Evil Empire".

Sorry Meat. That's utter bull****. Your statement has absolutely no basis in fact.

If you look at the history of the times, from WWII to the Vietnam war, and all inbetween, including all of the actions in Korea, Cuba, China, Vietnam, East Berlin, etc, our government made absolutely no attempts to falsely convince the population to live in fear of the evil empire, without good reason. The Cold War was real, the threat was real, the danger was real; foreign policy, especially the nightmares of the Vietnam and Korean wars, was based upon it. The covert actions of the CIA, along with various terrorist actions in the 60's and 70's, had most of their activities associated with dealing with the potential dangers of communism. I had the opportunity to travel around behind the Iron Curtain before it came down in 89. Communism was not only an incredible thing to experience first hand; it was a very dangerous one also.

You need to stop spending time with this moron Michael Moore's books, and start reading some real, investigative and detailed history books of the last fifty years. I think it will open your eyes a bit.

[meattosser]

Yes, and destroying nationalist movements in individual countries was for the safety of Americans? Lol. Come on man, you're just being naiive if you believe that. I respect you though Doc, you're willing to stand up for what you believe, I can't hate on that.

The good Doctor said: "I had the opportunity to travel around behind the Iron Curtain before it came down in 89. Communism was not only an incredible thing to experience first hand; it was a very dangerous one also."

No one said Communism in several countries was not dangerous; what I DID say is that the "Evil communists-out-to-take-over-the-world and rape your babies" mentality was GROSSLY exaggerated. Remember McArthyism? Reminds me of the "witch" trials of the 1600's. That's just one example. Vietnam, another nation that was thought to create a "domino effect" around the region. It didn't. They had no intention to do this, for the most part. They were more interested in making reforms in THEIR OWN country, for THEMSELVES. NVA's perhaps were "bad" or whatever, but, if anything, South Vietnam was just as corrupt. The South Vietnamese leader was corrupt as hell, so it was a bad situation either way.

Doc also said: "You need to stop spending time with this moron Michael Moore's books, and start reading some real, investigative and detailed history books of the last fifty years. I think it will open your eyes a bit."

Haha, yes, like Sean Hannity's "Let Freedom Ring", perhaps? Lol. Seriously though, what's with bringing up Michael Moore? Screw Michael Moore, when did I say that his books are my be-all-end-all evidence? I DON'T EVEN HAVE any of Moore's books. I HAVE OTHER books that detail OFFICIAL and DE-CLASSIFIED, as well as CLASSIFIED documents and memos, from Pentagon, former CIA, and other intelligence agents regarding foreign policy during the Cold War. I don't hate Michael Moore or anything, but I know that there are better, more well-documented books on the subject.

Doc also said: "I had the opportunity to travel around behind the Iron Curtain before it came down in 89."

That's all good and well, but you ain't the only one. I have friends and family that also lived through that time, and don't exactly agree with you. On a side note, a few days ago, I met a friendly person from Ghana, Africa, that went into deep discussion with me on politics. Let's just say he didn't have happy things to say about our foreign policy. He didn't hate this country or anything, he just hated the fact that so many Senators and politicians were constantly lying over the years to the American people.
Again though, like Zachsan said before, all of this has happened ALREADY. We can't go back in the past to change it obviously, so our priority should be to focus on what's going on right now. Hopefully our government can learn from its mistakes and do a better job in the future...

[meattosser]

Hahaha, it's funny, I always try to keep a post brief, but I end up making it massive. On a side note, Doc, you'll be back to Vegas in August, right? I'm gonna try to go to Vegas in August, but only if you'll be there by then. I think it'll be cool to meet the great Doctor himself, haha.