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  • Guangxiao si

    I recently went back a few days to Guangzhou mainly to visit my chan master Shi Jieding and sub master Shi Fengfa.

    That was very interesting and i think u might be interested to know a bit

    U should not sit before ur master allows u, even if he is invisible. Pay great respect to ur master

    Shaolin wuseng are not good because they eat meat. Shi Jieding and Fengfa insisted a lot on vegetarianism

    Shi Jieding is very kind on serving other people and beings, for instance cooking by himself 4 others

    If u want a plan to end suffering become a bodisatva

    The secret is to laugh

    Budism and violence r not something u should joke at

    Dont sit when the monks r chanting

    Give teachings without money


    Monks outside the temples are also very nice, fake or not i dont know, some shaolin guys around there. They r giving pictures of Guanyin pusa and asking 4 money. I guess they ask people to let go of material attachment and practice the virtue of giving, but lot of people seem pissed off even if they go in budist temple

  • #2
    Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    Shaolin wuseng are not good because they eat meat. Shi Jieding and Fengfa insisted a lot on vegetarianism
    shaolin wuseng dont necessarily take precepts against meat eating. their precept levels are secular, so the bodhisattva precepts (which contain the precept against meat eating) are not required.

    you should take a moment to inform your teachers. protect shaolin reputation from misinformed judgments.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, Shi Jieding just said shaolin wuseng eating meat r not good... He is entiltled to his opinion and has been monk 4 30 years so i dont think i could explain something about shaolin

      What about the precept 4 bodisatvas not to eat meat. I think it is not found on the tibetan tradition blossoming from Tsongkhapa that i posted. Do u have any reference or text please?

      Peace and love

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
        Well, Shi Jieding just said shaolin wuseng eating meat r not good... He is entiltled to his opinion and has been monk 4 30 years so i dont think i could explain something about shaolin
        if he is not a shaolin monk and clearly is unfamiliar with shaolin tradition, then it doesnt matter how many years he has been a monk.

        if you know his opinion is misinformed, you should let him know. there's nothing wrong or disrespectful about that.

        What about the precept 4 bodisatvas not to eat meat. I think it is not found on the tibetan tradition blossoming from Tsongkhapa that i posted. Do u have any reference or text please?
        the bodhisattva precepts are in the (mahayana/sanskrit) brahmajala sutra, with 10 major and 48 minor precepts. the precept on eating meat is number 3 of the minor precepts.

        all chinese monastics take the full pratimoksha (bhikshu/ni) precepts coupled with the bodhisattva precepts. it is a two-part ordination, making them bodhisattva-bhikshu/nis.

        ven. jieding apparently took it for granted that since shaolin monks are chinese, that they follow this ordination system, which he is correct, they do... but the wuseng are not fully ordained. they take a minimum of the 5 lay precepts (sometimes 10), but not necessarily the bodhisattva precepts, which contain the precept on meat eating.

        i doubt ven. jieding would just say some people are not good because they eat meat, unless he was assuming they've taken a precept to abstain from it.

        next time i would clear it up with him. dont just let misinformation go, or respect a monk and what he says just because he's been ordained. if he's not familiar with shaolin tradition, it really doesnt matter. you should politely correct him. maybe later his opinion would change and he'd be able to let other monastics know about shaolin tradition, where they'd usual disrespect it based on misinformation.

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        • #5
          I dont know

          Do u know he is misinformed?

          Do u know he is wrong to say shaolin wuseng do not plant correct karmic seeds by eating meat? (for instance i tend to think that shaolin political philosophy and politics is quite low, but i think that of most budist political philosophy)

          Maybe u r right, but i think he is playing his role and that too many people r dogmatic the other way by saying nature is non violent, food chain is perfect, animal life is peaceful, killing is ok. I guess it is not very chinese way of thinking but rather indian (and little greek>>>) Though laozai said heaven and earth show no mercy

          I dont know how an ignorant person like me, and probably u, could correct somebody else... It wouldnt be socratic dialectic

          He does speak quite a bit in favor of vegetarianism, on what basis would i correct him about the bad habits of shaolin wusengs? Maybe i can ask question and speak about some facts but to pretend to correct him would seem arrogant and narcisstic to me

          Do u know Shi Jieding?

          Thks for the reference to brhamajala, i will check it out...

          Peace and love
          Last edited by liutangsanzang; 06-26-2009, 03:53 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Or maybe u mean correct his dogmatism? Dogmatism is a big problem in my mind these days and i think many people, including budist, pretend to know when they dont know and that is a form of violence.

            But he is dogmatic or playing his role? Or maybe he is a hidden luohan and knows?

            And why shouldnt i correct the dogmatism of meat killers first?

            I dont know

            Peace and love

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post

              And why shouldnt i correct the dogmatism of meat killers first?

              I dont know

              Peace and love
              Well, how would you deal with the animals called carnivores? How would you stop them from eating each other?
              "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                Do u know he is misinformed?
                i doubt he would negatively judge most of the worlds population as being "bad" because they eat meat. as they say, its what comes out of your mouth, more so than what goes in it.

                it would appear that he was simply assuming shaolin wuseng take a precept against meat eating, because all fully ordained chinese monastics must take the bodhisattva precepts to complete their ordination. then based on the fact that many of them eat meat, he came to his conclusion.

                but since shaolin wuseng are in fact not fully ordained sangha members, and dont necessarily take the bodhisattva precepts, that would mean ven. jieding is misinformed.

                Do u know he is wrong to say shaolin wuseng do not plant correct karmic seeds by eating meat?
                i didnt say that. it appears that he was making the judgement based on misinformation of shaolin wuseng being fully ordained monks, collectively breaking a precept, and not on the simple act of eating meat. otherwise, why should shaolin wuseng be singled out of the worlds population of meat-eaters?

                I dont know how an ignorant person like me, and probably u, could correct somebody else... It wouldnt be socratic dialectic

                He does speak quite a bit in favor of vegetarianism, on what basis would i correct him about the bad habits of shaolin wusengs? Maybe i can ask question and speak about some facts but to pretend to correct him would seem arrogant and narcisstic to me
                on the basis that you might know more about the shaolin monastic tradition than he does. which if he assumes shaolin wuseng are fully ordained and therefore take the bodhisattva precepts, and you know that to be incorrect, you do in fact know more, and are therefore in a position to protect shaolin tradition and inform those who are misinformed.

                it really doesnt matter how long he has been a monk. he may not be aware of the shaolin monastic tradition. believing anything he says as complete truth, and being unwilling to correct him seems to be the most "dogmatic" action here.

                Comment


                • #9
                  lol, lfj u r right!

                  yet it is deep question to know wether killing an animal that seems not want to die is or isnt obscuration to contemplation of non violence

                  maybe shi jieding is amitofo and he know it is obscuration???

                  lol

                  well if u can laugh about killing a being that just like ur son seems not want to die

                  i am not saying it is bad but i have the following questions

                  why while chinese people r traditionally atheists and that most westerners turn to be, do they still think the food chain is perfect, animals are non violent, just like if a perfect god created it...

                  That is my question master splinter

                  I think there is a fear of madness in it, seeing reality as illogic or imperfect....

                  If u help me resolve it to reach non violence, i am not attached to veg, i just want to know if that can be a cause of obscuration to contemplation of absolute non violence. My question is not budism, but non violence. Is that correct?

                  Hippie peace and love

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    lol lfj u right, thanks

                    master splinter my question is the following

                    why, though chinese people r traditionally atheistic and many westerners turn to be, do they believe that food chain is perfect, animals r non violent, like if created by a pure god

                    i m not defending budism, jainism or veg, i just want to know what is absolute non violence, if u help me find it i dont care veg or not

                    i think the position to say that to kill a fish that swims away from u is non violent and often not to question it has to do with fear of madness, seeing reality as illogic or born from ignorance or being abnormal

                    it might also has to do with attachment to pleasure and happiness, an attachment that chan and vipassana meditation try to get rid of

                    i dont know...

                    but maybe shi jieding is a luohan that knows that killing an animal that just like u want to live is indeed obscuration to contemplation of absolute non violence. in that sense common people might be called ignorant if not bad. why not? of course that is a position hard to hold, yet where is the common people that knows what is absolute non violence. and if he doesnt know what is absolute non violence, is he violent?

                    the water trigram is danger because pure yang is trapped by two impure yin which r the conditioning of habit. where is pure yang?

                    again can u prove that monkeys r non violent while they kill each other? where does violence come from? does it appear suddenly in humans or does it have its root in nature and animals? why believe in perfect nature?

                    Hippie peace and love

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      the point is, if ven. jieding wanted to talk about non-violence and vegetarianism, and say that meat-eating is a bad thing, he would have explained in more detail and not singled out shaolin wuseng. he would have addressed your questions.

                      the fact that he singled out the shaolin wuseng, from the majority of the worlds population who are meat-eaters to say they are bad, suggests another occurance of the common mistake among buddhist monastics and lay people who are unfamiliar with the shaolin monastic tradition, assuming they are breaking precepts, when they may very well have not even taken such precepts.

                      seriously, why would shaolin wuseng be singled out if not for the assumption that they are breaking precepts?

                      i dont think ven. jieding's statement was so much about non-violence and the importance of vegetarianism (which i'm not arguing against, mind you), as it was about a group of monks apparently breaking those precepts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you dont want to kill animals or plants, become a breatharian. I guess... Thats the closest to will get to not having to kill anything that is living, unless you manage to find and eat minerals or something. Or genetically engineer yourself to be able to utilize photosynthesis. yeah, thats being realistic. About as realistic as ending the suffering on earth.

                        Humanity has a thing called technology. this has the potential to end human suffering. Better start studying. Go to college or something.
                        "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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