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  • Vegetarianism

    Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    To say life is violence, plants do suffer, is a kind of jain view.

    Personally i cannot see tomatoes expressing any suffering, wanting to run away or having a nervous system, contrary to most animals.

    I dont know on what ground u say a tomato suffers. It seems a belief u hold as truth.

    So i would tend to say that having a tomato as dinner is non violent and that it is possible to have a very non violent life.

    I dont know though.

    Peace and love
    I didn't say anything about tomatoes suffering.

    If you have ever had to grow something to eat, you might come to understand how fragile the process is, you need to resort to violence to defend what you are growing, either that or lose what you grow to the many unprincipled animals and bugs etc. that devour your food. You still can not escape the fact that life consumes life, and life requires violence in some form or other. You can take a cop out and preach that you abhor violence and vegetarianism is non violent- but that is only on the surface. Beneath the surface is violence.

    Every step you take outside or even inside you kill. Just a difference in magnitude of scale.

    By eating anything produced in our massive agribusiness models by which we provide our vegetables, breads, grains, etc. you contribute to the violence of the harvest, which slaughters plenty of field life, for example.
    "Arhat, I am your father..."
    -the Dark Lord Cod

  • #2
    Tomatoes suffer.

    And they fight back.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI6sN8ZoREo"]YouTube - Attack of the Killer Tomatoes - Pirated Video Episode 5[/ame]


    Alex, you need to make films like this...
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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    • #3
      Arhat, i ll take a while to think about what u say. I am a little aware of the problem of insects and growing food. Yet i think that traditionally many vegetables grow without having to face insects.

      Also what do u call kill? Do u kill a virus, do u kill a table?

      Anyway thanks for the insight, i ll tell u more later.

      Maestro, i went to Shaolin in 2oo1,i had a shaolin shifu in the himalaya who was my personal friend and i trained whith Shi Heng Jun in Paris.

      I think i ve found quite a bit of wisdom and even buddhism in the people i ve met from Shaolin.

      I wonder if u dont have antichinese feelings. Due to history and actual political situation and the fear of China growing, many westerners have anti chinese feelings.

      If u see what Doc writes about chinese there is a lot of hard words.

      I also had this feeling and found it in many westerners.

      So i try to develop more love and understanding.

      I also can understand that not to face perfect buddhists is annoying. I was shocked when i arrived in Shaolin to see a book where all the monks were said to be Arahats, saints. Shi Heng Jun has also been elected as an Arahat.

      When u see that in buddhist countries like burma or thailand, very, very few people are said to be arahats, it is surprising to see so many in Shaolin.

      Personally i doubt it and think it is like an advertisement.

      Anyway there are still good things to find, dont be antichinese.

      Om and peace and love

      Comment


      • #4
        I think I'm getting a little tired of this nutbar hijacking every thread into a PETA related thread...
        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

        Comment


        • #5
          Well Iron Cross, thinking about non violence is not exclusive of Peta.

          Arent u interested in Shaolin way to see non violence and its relation with animals? Nobody forces u to have interested in a buddhist martial art. So dont be surprised Shaolin practicionners talk about non violence, buddhism and vegetarianism. Why blame me to talk about Shaolin philosophy? Are u bored with Shaolin or maybe u have not yet fully developped ur love for me and animals?

          Om and peace and love

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
            Well Iron Cross, thinking about non violence is not exclusive of Peta.

            Arent u interested in Shaolin way to see non violence and its relation with animals? Nobody forces u to have interested in a buddhist martial art. So dont be surprised Shaolin practicionners talk about non violence, buddhism and vegetarianism. Why blame me to talk about Shaolin philosophy? Are u bored with Shaolin or maybe u have not yet fully developped ur love for me and animals?

            Om and peace and love
            You know Liu, it's nothing personal, but this comment made me laugh. Now I understand you...

            HAHAHA! And to think, I was almost feeling guilty about what I wrote earlier. Now I know your just crazy, ROFLMAO!
            "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

            "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

            "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

            Comment


            • #7
              "So dont be surprised Shaolin practicionners talk about non violence, buddhism and vegetarianism. Why blame me to talk about Shaolin philosophy?"

              shaolin were known as meat eating wine drinking fighters what are you talking about non violence and vegetarianism. how come at every monks demo they gotta do iron body, what are they trying to say with that. how come the monks flaunt the fact that they can eat meat and drink alcohol.

              lolo but u preach shit they dont do. u talk about your enlightened teachers when u dont even know what your talking about. no one agrees with you, do you think thats a tad odd seeing as how most of us are martial artists atleast to a degree...

              and arhat is right 100% and u obviously do not know shit about growing your own food. i do, were growing our own vegs right now. if u think growing veg is so easy and harmless and u refute everything arhat say, it just shows how ignorant u are.

              animals do get hungry u know lolo, and why do u think u have to wash off those veg from the supermarket..or maybe u dont do that, maybe thats why we are arguing with you so much lolo

              i dont believe i have to say this but, rabbits eat vegetables ok liu, and they are out there!! lolo. also groundhogs, lolo whatever plenty of animals.

              life sustains life, period. violence is a part of life that cant be denied

              some of ur bs is not even worth addressing and im supposed to be stretching right now because i have to go to the gym soon...so

              most of the monks are shit heads, theres no such thing as a perfect buddhist or a perfect anything. arhat lohan whatever i could careless what they call themselves, i dont hate chinese people infact i would love to bang a chinese girl..espcially one that looks like the girls from rush hour 2 massage room and..plants are a form of life that unfortunately do live and die to feed the animals and people of this world
              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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              • #8
                Its exactly for this reason I dont even read posts by Liu or BTL... They just dont make sense and only confuse whatever is being discussed. I usually just scroll over them to the next post. Though if people keep addressing them and the topic becomes a conversation between a crazy person and everyone else I see no point in participating or even reading it.
                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Very funny. I ll die laughing while these old people are begging in the streets and these children die without medicine.

                  OK Iron Cross u r younger and wiser than me and u have solved the question of the freedom of animals and non violence and no, animals do not suffer in human industry and Thich Nhat Hanh is just a nutbar ideologist when he says caged chicken eggs are full of anger.

                  OK Maestro, about the tradition of Shaolin being buddhist and vegetarian i have posted quotes from chinese shaolin masters in the PETA thread were they explain why they think true shaolin practicionners should be very vegetarians. One reason is that Bodhidhamma teached using the Lankavatara sutra where a chapter is dedicated to vegetarianism. And that an emperor decree cannot overrule the buddhist morality. If u r really interested in learning about Shaolin, not being a customer but somebody who comes to learn from masters and tradition and let his ego apart, the way it should be, zen search this thread and see what shaolin masters say about veg.

                  Never said my Shaolin shifus were enlightened but they were surely interested in buddhism and compassion.

                  I dont refute what Arahat says, on the contrary i listen to him. My concern is non violence, not veg. I already said i dont hold veg as absolute truth. Yet i wonder how did farmers do in the ancient times without pesticides. I m certainly not a specialist of the question, i acknowledge my ignorance and if somebody can enlighten me that would be nice. And are trees violent?

                  And if ur love for chinese is perfect, glad to hear that, hope u can explain some of ur wisdom because my love for chinese is far from perfect.

                  I see Shaolin practicionners always like to fight, hope they also know how to stop the fight and deepen compassion, including for animals. But there is no problems about animals, that is a bit what you are preaching, arent u?

                  Somebody cares to comment about this video and its link with shaolin gongfu and non violence? Or in ur great wisdom u dont need to learn about suffering and compassion?

                  [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4"]YouTube - Meet your Meat[/ame]


                  Om and peace and love

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    To get back to the topic of the thread and to know if u can find some wisdom in Shaolin, here are what two shaolin shifus say about vegetarianism. U can find it at www.shaolin.cn.com. If it is me saying what they say, some of you would probably insult and humiliate me, but if it is from two shaolin shifus, the tradition u r supposed to respect, maybe u ll be more mindful.

                    And about the question of compassion towards animal i think it should be divided in 2 questions:

                    1 Is killing animals non violent, is it good karma? The typical buddhist approach is that just like you, most animals express the will to live. So what about their freedom? And what about the love/ignorance killing animals do have?

                    2 Do animals suffer in modern farming and industry? I find it is a question a lot of people avoid, for a reason that i still dont understand. Probably because to recognize that animals suffer is an ego/identity problem.

                    Anyway, love to all of u, dear shaolin sisters and brothers.

                    In the Shaolin Temple we use to eat Dofu, eggs, rice, noodles, vegetables. All foods are usually boiled or stir fried. When stir-fried they use soybean oil, peanut oil, sunflower oil.
                    So, are all Shaolin vegetarians?
                    They ought to be.
                    The first of Buddhism’s Ten Precepts is, ”Refrain from destroying life.”
                    Mahakashyapa asked the Buddha,
                    “Why is it that the Thus Come One does not allow eating meat?’
                    The Buddha replied,
                    “It is because meat-eating cuts off the seeds of great compassion.”
                    Based on the following story, some Shaolin Monks had developed a wrong theory, which is totally against of Mahayana Path, which Shaolin Monks follows.
                    There is a mural entitled Thirteen Shaolin Cudgelling Monks Rescue the Emperor of the Tang Dynasty on the walls of Baiyi Hall. It depicts the fight for power toward the end of Sui Dynasty between Prince Qin (599-649) and General Wang Shichong (?-621). At the crucial moment, monks from the Shaolin Temple came to help Prince Qin attack Wang Shichong’s army from behind and win victory. When Prince Qin came to power as Emperor Tai Zong of the Tang Dynasty, he conferred titles on the monks, granted land to the Shaolin Temple, and issued a special edict that allowed the monks to eat meat and drink wine.
                    Eating meat and drinking alcohol are cardinal sins in Mahayana Buddhism. Any Mahayana monk found eating meat or drinking alcohol would be expelled from the monastic order immediately. None is above the Lord Buddha no man no Emperor. Scriptures must be followed not be ignored.
                    As my Great Master used to say:
                    Becoming a Shaolin monk marks one of the highest points in a person’s life. It calls for great sacrifice and dedication, and should be undertaken only after very serious and thorough consideration. If a monk cannot resist worldly temptations like eating meat and drinking alcohol, he should leave his monk hood because he would be blatantly disrespecting his sacred Shaolin monastic order


                    From Lankavatara Sutra

                    This Sutra was a discussion of the fundamental concepts of Mahayana Buddhism. Chapter Eight is entirely devoted to the prohibition of meat eating. As we know Patriarch Bodhidharma taught Shaolin Monks from this book, only.

                    “The Blessed One said this to Mahamati:

                    For innumerable reasons, Mahamati, the Bodhisattva, whose nature is compassion, is not to eat any meat.”

                    “Now, Mahamati, the food I have permitted (my disciples to take) is gratifying to all wise people but is avoided by the unwise; it is productive of many merits, it keeps away many evils; and it has been prescribed by the ancient Rishis. It comprises rice, barley, wheat, kidney beans, beans, lentils, etc., clarified butter, oil, honey, molasses, treacle, sugar cane, coarse sugar, etc.; food prepared with these is proper food.”

                    “If, Mahamati, meat is not eaten by anybody for any reason, there will be no destroyer of life. Mahamati, in the majority of cases the slaughtering of innocent living beings is done for pride and very rarely for other causes.”

                    “It is not true, Mahamati, that meat is proper food and permissible for the Sravaka ( a hearer, hence a pupil or beginner) when (the victim) was not killed by himself, when he did not order others to kill it. When it was not specially meant for him.”

                    “Thus, Mahamati, meat eating I have not permitted to anyone, I do not permit, I will not permit.”
                    Theravada monks supports that they can eat meat because it is their tradition to accept food given by their followers, and their followers may sometimes give them meat. This is also wrong. In the Maha Parinirvana sutra, there is a conversation between one of Lord Buddha’s followers, Mahakashyapa, and Lord Buddha Himself.
                    Mahakashyapa asked Buddha:
                    “When we beg and are given vegetables mixed with meat, can we eat this food? How can we clean this food?”
                    Buddha replied:
                    “One should clean it with water and separate the vegetables from the meat, then one can eat it.”
                    So it is obvious from the teachings of Lord Buddha that eating meat is not acceptable, even if it is obtained from begging.

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                    • #11
                      I've moved these posts into their appropriate forum.

                      Liu, pay attention. Good stuff, but keep it organized for our readers. There's many people who cruise through here looking for information that do not post.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


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                      • #12
                        Ok doc and thanks, keep the concentration. I think it is natural that the question of non violence and vegetarianism appears regularly in a Shaolin context, including in some threads that talks about Shaolin. This question was linked with the thread shaolin documentary as it was questionned the wisdom of shaolin monks. From my part i think the wisdom of vegetarianism that some Shaolin monks hold should be respected and inquired and not rejected without deep questioning. I dont say they hold the truth, but one should be curious about the fact that some people hold veg as higly spiritual. That is not a common idea in the West, except in ancient greece and with some christian ascetics like the basque founder of the Jesuits, Inaki de Loyola. Being a foreign belief we should come with respect to it and understand it. All the more if we say that we want to learn Shaolin gongfu.

                        Really nice to debate, again i dont say that veg is truth. But i think some questions should be asked about violence and animal suffering in modern times.

                        For instance Arahat, u say that some killing is also implied in growing vegetables and u kind of say it is violence.

                        So IF killing is violence, and i dont say that all killing is violence, and is understood as bad karma shouldnt we reduce it to the minimum?

                        How do organics grow without pesticides?
                        How did food grow in the past?

                        Gandhi said that modern times brings a lot of suffering...


                        Also animals killing arent they at a level of ignorance where they have no understanding of other sentient beings's suffering, will to live and freedom? Arent we supposed to get higher than ignorant animals? If u have a child and u have a broken leg, the wolf is not going to help u about this broken leg and is going to kill u even if u leave a child alone. Arent we supposed to have more compassion than that?

                        And for Z and his judgment that a lion killing a zebra is beautiful, would you think it is beautiful if he killed ur mother and father and let u alone in some state house for orphans? Arent u discriminating between you and non you?

                        Questions, questions...

                        There are more questions about environment, cutting forests, contributing to global warming, having unnatural suffering in modern industry and health, but if our shaolin brothers would already answer to these questions, i would be grateful. Ur ideas are really appreciated and make me more understand the questions of violence and non violence. It is really helpful. I wish my ideas and doubts and questions could also be helpful to you in your path towards love.

                        Om and peace and love
                        Last edited by liutangsanzang; 08-24-2008, 07:30 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by liutangsanzang View Post
                          So IF killing is violence, and i dont say that all killing is violence, and is understood as bad karma shouldnt we reduce it to the minimum?
                          If you feel this is the dharma, that is why I suggest taking yourself out. That is the logical conclusion of your position. Of course I am not really saying to take yourself out, simply pointing to the absurdity. You will be forced to see that you are standing on a slippery slope.

                          Karma? Does karma really make sense.

                          Shaolin has a long history of eating meat, check out Dr. Shahar's recent book for a scholarly look at the temple. A whole mythology had to be developed to handle the fighting arts and meat eating. I don't use mythology in a negative sense. Should we reduce our usage of and intake of animals, should we be aware of our consumption and respect it's source? Is factory farming of animals for foodstuffs horrible, for the most part? Yes, I agree. After learning about how most of our meat gets to our plate I don't eat a lot of meat. Even my shifu, who is often painted as a voracious carnivore, doesn't eat a lot of meat. Mostly noodles and vegetables.

                          And I try to find sources which have led an actual life, when I do. Some places where people live there is no way to grow veggies at all, or there is often gaps in the growing seasons. You have to eat. We have the luxury and the position of comfort to wax poetic about these topics.

                          I have about 8-10 pots of tomatoes. Every night they are attacked by slugs. If I do not go out with a flashlight and escort the slugs down to the forest, I would not have any tomatoes to eat. Or I could kill them to defend my food. I have the luxury of not depending on these tomatoes, or any of the other veggies I am growing. So if deer or raccoons take out some of my crop, I am ok. I'm not going to starve.

                          The rabbits, as vince mentioned, the raccoons, moles, birds...these are all hungry and you either don't have the luxury to suffer losses to them, and so must kill them- eat them, or you grow a lot of food that winds up not being used by you.

                          Grow corn and see what happens.

                          How did food grow in the past?
                          growing food even today, is a risky business. even with all our tech, farms can and do lose crops. so it is with a lot of losses. that is why even to this day there is famine, disease, etc. it was and always will be bubbling under the surface.


                          Also animals killing arent they at a level of ignorance where they have no understanding of other sentient beings's suffering, will to live and freedom?
                          Not really, plenty of studies have been conducted which prove animals do feel empathy and express emotions. I'm sure, watching lions hunt, they have an understanding of their prey's will to live, as nature has endowed them with skills and means to mitigate that will.

                          What is to be done, then? You have to find harmony and balance, it is not found in extremes of position. Especially, you can't talk about Shaolin without recognizing it has carved out a unique niche and developed a kind of Buddhism that is of a different flavor than many other schools of Mahayana in China.

                          p.s. Buddha was killed by eating the meat of a wild boar.
                          "Arhat, I am your father..."
                          -the Dark Lord Cod

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thanks for the interesting insights.

                            In fact i try not to hold to any position, i m just questioning.

                            I dont say lions are violent, but i question their compassion.

                            So i dont specially hold to the position where u have to escape samsara if u want to end violence, but i m also not closed to it.

                            I became a vegetarian after a sitting meditation retreat in India. One day i was tired meditating so i went to the mountain. There there was a wild buffalo, a bit like ur avatar. I was afraid he gets close to me and it seemed he didnt want me to get close to him. So i thought what right i have to kill him if he doesnt want me to kill him and i dont want to be killed by him?

                            Stop the fight. That is what wushu is for me.

                            That was in India were cows are sacred and mysticals. And the buffalo was wild, not used to humans i guess, so not conditioned not to fear humans as most cows do, until they reach the slaughterhouse where some of them seem to express fear and a will to live.

                            I dont draw any firm conclusion from that tough.

                            U aslo seem to say that traditional farming implied less killing. What about organics?

                            Shaolin certainly has a different flavor than other buddhist schools and i dont reject it, but when i read the book by the 6th patriarch of Chan, supposed to be the heir of Sakyamuni, he said he was a vegetarian.

                            The tibetan lamas also have the habit of meat eating but it seems they were one of the most oppressive and blood thirsty and violent clergy of buddhism. Yet they seem to have developped great yogic skills like inner heat, tummo. Where is the illusion, where is true yoga, where is non violence?

                            Thanks again and peace and love.

                            ps: Sakyamuni died after eating psychedelic mushrooms. I read once that Chan monks also used psy mushrooms.
                            Last edited by liutangsanzang; 08-24-2008, 09:33 PM.

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                            • #15
                              I also confirm that the Buddha died because of mushrooms, not meat.
                              "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                              "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                              "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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