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proving existence of the mind(not thebrain)

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  • proving existence of the mind(not thebrain)

    can you or cant you? what do you educated people with high school diplomas think, huh?
    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

  • #2
    what exactly is it that you're looking for proof of?

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    • #3
      "I think, therefore I am"

      —Rene Descartes
      Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

      "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

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      • #4
        I'm going to pull this from another thread... on another forum, from another poster...

        Look in the mirror.
        practice wu de

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        • #5
          alright... no, you can't prove that there is a spiritual "mind" that's separate from the brain. "mind" in this sense is a metaphysical concept and can't be proven or disproven.

          the problem is that many people interpret this to mean that there's no free will. in christianity, free will is understood to be a product of the spirit or soul, and eternal. so if you take the spirit or soul out of the equation, you get rid of free will, too. but only if you believe in the traditional christian definition of free will.

          the thing is, you don't necessarily need to believe in an eternal spirit or metaphysical mind to believe in free will as an operative concept. instead, you can try to better understand how free will works, and well... that's neuroscience.

          it's like love. even if you find out that love is a sequence of neurons firing in your brain, that doesn't have to mean that the experience of it is somehow cheapened, nor does it mean that there's no such thing as love. it simply means that we now have a better understanding of what love is.

          even if "free will" is a function of the prefrontal cortex, and "mind" is just a simplified way of describing of the brain as a whole, that doesn't mean that in practice we're any less free to make choices in our lives. it just means that now we have a better idea of how that process works.

          thanks for the advice stylee... wow, i really need a shave.

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          • #6
            For me, sensory perception (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, conscious thought) is the combination of things which form what we consider the mind. I thought it interesting that Rob that you said not the brain, but that is a part of it. Without it you would not be experiencing what you are, however the brain is only a small part of it.

            I do not believe, however that this mind is in no way a self. A self or soul, is something that is considered separate from everything else, and that is absurd. If there was something that was not affected by the Universe, then everything would fall apart. It is plain spiritual immaturity that leads people to think that they are actually separate from other people and things.

            As a side note: Descartes was full of shit. I can stop thinking, so does that make me non-existent?!?!?
            "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

            "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

            "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

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            • #7
              yeah, i'm not much of a descartes fan either. even i have to admit though that without him, there's no western philosophy. kinda like trying to take confucious out of asian philosophy.

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              • #8
                it's the quintessential quote about self and being...

                You can stop thinking overtly, in as much as you aren't using internal language to talk to yourself, but you always are thinking (your brain is functioning).

                When that stops, you DO cease to exist.
                Whatever doesn't kill me had better be able to run damn fast.

                "You are one of the most self-deluded immature idiots I've come across here for a time..." —Blooming T. Lotus

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                • #9
                  no, your body may still exist. so you have to interpret it in the sense that your body isn't you, your thoughts and the act of thinking are you. which makes the quote meaningless, because you can then reduce it to "thinking is, therefore thinking is". descartes makes the mistake of previously defining existence as the act of thinking, and then saying that because he thinks, he exists. it's just an endless and pointless circle.

                  descartes was basically setting out to use new tools (formal logic and mathematics) to prove an old idea (the existence of god). he thought he did so, but needless to say, he made his fair share of mistakes. otherwise, western philosophy would still be based on a belief in god. his major contribution was to open up a logical discourse on the matter, which basically created modern western philosophy.

                  anyway, apparently, when your brain stops functioning, you may only cease to exist after a 15 year court battle.
                  Last edited by zachsan; 03-30-2005, 06:01 PM.

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                  • #10
                    before you were born where were you? well when you die thats where you will be.
                    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                    • #11
                      in philo 101 we did some research on people who had near death experiences.

                      there were about 5 subjects, each who had literally died( no brain activity whatsoever)and they go on about how they went to heaven, hell, nirvana, and some other (self created )afterlifes. my question at the end was this; if your so called religion is real, than your heaven or hell would be the ultimate right? if your a christian there is one heaven and one hell that we aLL will end up in either one. well these people were all ranting about DIFFERENT afterlife experiences, not one ultimate heaven or hell. the teacher could not answer and i dropped the class. and it was strange afterwards because as i was walking to my next class i felt light, enlightened. i felt a compassion for all living things, it was a very content and peaceful feeling and i felt like smiling at everyone, its almost as if all fear of death and the afterlife had dissappeared and i understood life. then i smoked a bowl of wacky and i tripped the hell out, i was extremely focused and performed my techniques flawlessly, what centered me was the thought of love and compassion for everyone around me. the wacky ruined my perfect peace though, after that ive just been the normal hateful, frustrated, catatonic...me.
                      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                      • #12
                        lol... well congratulations, you've noticed an obvious flaw in the theory that NDEs can give a person a glimpse of the afterlife.

                        many people do describe similarities between their NDEs, but there are also a lot of people that have completely different accounts, and true believers are usually content to just ignore those, or come up with some ad hoc hypothesis as to why other people's experiences were different. the bottom line is that when the brain is shutting down, it's liable to do anything, from presenting an image of a white light to giving someone a feeling of happiness or extreme terror.

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                        • #13
                          Are sure here that it's not the experiences ( individual variations of path to aside) that differ so much as what words and concepts they use to describe it when they get their "mind" back?????????? Words and thoughts and limitations are funny like that , no??!

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                          • #14
                            Well isn't that what your mind is? The way you interepret things you are presented with? A red light to me might represent prosperity and strength, but to another it might mean hell.

                            Things that are objective only stay objective until your mind works on it.

                            Also, Descartes' Rule of Signs (http://www.purplemath.com/modules/drofsign.htm) made my math comprehension worse. I think I skipped it and still got an A. Sucka.
                            Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus
                              Are sure here that it's not the experiences ( individual variations of path to aside) that differ so much as what words and concepts they use to describe it when they get their "mind" back?????????? Words and thoughts and limitations are funny like that , no??!

                              good question... i dont really know. i recall one lady telling a story of the classic "hellfire experience" and another saying that she floated up and 3 spheres of light in the sky started to float around her and tell her negative evil things, that was her hell. they were almost completely different in comparison.
                              "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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