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  • #31
    What kind of bullshit is that to tell somebody its his own responsibility when he`s having a seizure?? If someone almost dies right next to you and you don`t help, just means you have no hart.


    • #32
      Originally posted by Iron Cross
      I dont recall him ever saying trust no one....

      And yeah I learned the entire yi jin jing... directly from the big man himself.... qigong helps alot of things.. but it does dick when its over 100 degrees and 90% humidity in the place... people just over heat....

      to shoot holes in your faith in yi jin jing.... of everyone there that night i was one of 2 people that know the sutra... HA

      lol.. there is actually more than one person on this planet one might refer to as shifu... although now that I think about it, it was Sigung who said that to me.. it was during a spar drill with a Sigung from a branch in HongKong and while I thought he ( my hosting Sigung) was coming over to watch, he sunk a knuckle into touch a pressure point I had open to him but not to the visiting Sigung I was sparring.. I was as devestated as shocked as amused ..
      but I'll never forget that.

      On the yijininjing, when I say you didnt really learn it, what I mean is that its one thing to learn a set of movements..and even another to learn breathing techniques to apply while you execute it...but to understand the mind that defines it and the meditative state that accompanies it, is a whole entirely other thing again..
      just like it's one thing to read a sutra and another to practice its dharma and another to keeep coming back and reapplying its words and insights to the life notes you've accumulated since the last time...
      memory of the words isn't near as important as understanding it only once.....

      I don't really know why you felt the need to swear, but thats a horrible take you have on me if thats what you think..that I would leave a person to die..
      If someone was having a seizure next to me, I would probably talk them through as best as I could.. should I feel that thats what was genuinely happening... I ama biiig fan of good health and considering our mental and emotional state is connected to how our bodies perform, I do believe, and sutras would have us believe that we should do this for ourselves and our partners or family, the overloaded medical systems, our national health service budgets and our general community and for the prospects of our future contributions to both humanity and the world...

      IronCross was the only person in the room experiencing this... YanMing told him it was in his mind ..imo meaning that he was hoping to steer him toward the connection ... as how the yi jin jing works and any other qigong ... it was from YanMings seat, a kind suggestion.

      Besides..when you dO look at it fromthat perspective, I see ppl dying all around me everyday anyway.. from poor diet or lifestyle choices or preventable illnesses including social disorders and theeir repercussions and so on... I can't save them all but I can try to impact the current international education systems and try to prevent or minimise that for future generations...
      and yes.. I really do see it that way.. and I see them suffer long and painful torments getting there..

      according again to the sutras stemming from whats in their heads...

      and I'll admits it hurts me.

      Amitabah Michabusch.

      Blooming Lotus
      Last edited by Unregistered; 08-22-2006, 09:07 AM.


      • #33
        YOu know BL your right about one thing... Learning Qigong or anything for that matter from Yan Ming... He jsut shows you the movements... I asked him a few times abut certain aspects of qigong and he would jsut tell me to keep practicing... By your own admission then hes a crappy teacher..

        For the other stuff... We're not talking about someone eating big macs here or smoking or drinking excessivly... The situatin was I collapsed from heat and was on the verge of dying.... its pretty painfully obvious I needed immediate help right there...

        YOu know what I don't think im gonna talk to you anymore about this... If you can't figure this out your an idiot... and it does no good talking to an idiot....
        The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!


        • #34
          sooo missing the point.

          what to do??!..

          Blooming Lotus


          • #35
            You know BL. I've read this forum for quite a long time. Never really getting involved. But I have to say you should really just keep your mouth closed once in awhile. Iron Cross is speaking honestly of his experience and you have to come in here and start talking crap.

            Bottom Line..... If you got nothing good to say about the subject/topic keep out of it. There's no need to ruin a good informative post about one of these supposed "MONK" run schools or any post for that matter.

            Iron Cross - Sorry to hear of your experience. Luckily you didn't really have any permanent major damage as a result. Glad to here you found a new teacher in Chen Ying. I’ve heard nothing but wonderful stories about him and his school. Don’t dwell in the past and keep moving forward.

            I personally don’t understand why people still train there if Yan Ming isn’t teaching? I mean that’s the whole reason to go there over somewhere else…. To learn from him! I guess I would’ve been gone a long time ago.

            Any place that doesn’t let you re-hydrate yourself in extreme heat is not looking out for the students best interest. Plain and simple. Just my 2 cents.


            • #36
              Originally posted by BL
              Zachsan has always been big on dismissing a persons responsibilty of duty of care to themselves...
              Haha, oh man. If I needed solid proof that everything I have ever said has flown straight over BL's head (which I didn't), that statement is it. I'm a libertarian, for chrissakes.

              The argument I "resort to" is that if you assume responsibility for something, then... well... you assume responsibility for it. For instance, a martial arts class, and the students therein.

              Eh, whatever. I'm fully aware that this line of reasoning makes about as much sense to BL as her rambling does to anyone else. She can only piss you off so much until she reminds you just how weak a grip she has on reality, as compared to the rest of the world. My faith in humanity restored, I'll now return to politely ignoring her.


              • #37
                The reality Zachsan is although people might be expected to take responsibilties for things they're meant to be responsible for, for whatever reason, it doesn't always happen.
                I do understand what you're saying and the point you argue from, but that has gotto be a two way street. If you get nothing else out of what I've said here about this, or even alot else of what I've said to you all over the years it should be that when that doesn't happen, that ppl do fall short on meeting their responsibilties, which will happen, it is a wise thing to be prepared for that and develop methods and strategies to see you through. If it happens often enough, as it might that ppl let you down or you find yourself unprepparred and caught with your proverbial pants down, then to make it habit to be okay anyway is a goood lesson to learn. And imo thaat is where YanMings innocence lays...which clearly you just can't understand.

                I think it's been a valuable experience for IronCross to've shared. That doesn't mean I have to agree with whats said and it certainly doesn't mean it didn't deserve a critical analysis and a good open discussion. ..not that we're intolerant to diversity, equal opportunity, alternative approaches nor shaolin ch'an buddhist culture.
                You don't even trryy to understand.

                Amitabah anyway. Glad IronCross you're okay.

                Thanks to Steve for tolerating long enough to let me have my say.

                Blooming Lotus.


                • #38
                  YOu know I think its totally cool for whoever to say whatever they feel about the situaiton... Thats why I posted it in the first place... BL abviously has an opinion... one I just happen to disagree with....

                  But don't knock on her just cause she is crazy... sometimes its the crazy ones that make you realize jsut how sane you really are....
                  The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Blooming Whatever

                    Thanks to Steve for tolerating long enough to let me have my say.
                    Oh, I am so holding back stuff till Doc returns to Vegas. Which may be very soon. Beware.
                    I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed.
                    "Life can keep providing the rain and I'll keep providing the parade."
                    "I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle."
                    "Whatever guy said that money don't buy you pleasure didn't know where to go shopping"


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Unregistered

                      Crazy like what Siddartha buddha went through .. a Prince for christ sake, packs up from the castle , leaves his kingdom of adoring fans and goes bush because he can't stAaand the hardships he sees from his castle balcony window as he watches over the land, nor the way ppl fight and struggle to survive and all it entails... who besides Doc does thaat for crimminey??

                      starves and just watches until some hot girl offers him porridge and beggs him not to die so he asks her not to leave ..or rather after some persistance on her part, he leaves with her ... goes back to society and has a whole religion built on the strength of the notes of his experience ... that he thenn spends the rest of his life sharing notes from ... the sitting down contemplating part almost similar to how and what might lead someone else seeing the same to drink or become violent or use drugs or whathaveyou.. once you've been exposed, there iis no turning back ... only the other side of the tunnel..
                      Alright sorry here. Don't want to be a preacher but, umm are we talking the same Siddartha aka Buddha here? It seems like you are talking about Herman Hesse's Siddartha which is not a story about Siddartha Buddha. It is a novel written with the inspiration of Buddhism. If you know anything about the life of Buddha, he did not find a woman and return back to society. In short, he actually was married with a child when he ruled his kingdom, but left to find enlightenment. When he found enlightenment, alone under the bodhi tree, he then found his disciples who left him earlier, then he returned back to the kingdom to spread his knowledge. Perhaps you were talking about Herman Hesse's Siddartha. I'm not sure. I havent read that book in like 10 years.

                      Point being here is that, there are many people at USAST or followers of that school who try to use Chan Buddhism as some logic to remove responsibility of the school and the people at the school. Which I think is silly because they simply do not teach it there. Sure Sifu says alot of wise things, but this does not absolve him from responsiblity. He still has to pay his bills, take care of his kids, so forth and so on. He is human just like the rest of us and he makes mistakes.

                      Anyway, I'm not chan sutra master here. But it was just strange that you were talking all about Buddhism to defend SYM but wrote something like this. Seems like some inconsistency here. But hey I could be wrong...


                      • #41
                        Yes you could...and to be perfectly frank, if I was trying to define what does and doesn't quantify ch'an and buddhist tenet mastery it's quite likely that I'm going to vote for the monk over a young western boy extrapolating and speaking blame .

                        Buddha did indeed have a wife and child ( and several concubines aswell as was the trend of the times ... ... and additionally might serve ppl to remember that the process of his enlightment came after fulfiling his duty to his blood line ... which coming from a hindu upbringing also conforms with their ideas about becoming a most enlightened one of the belief system .. a brahmin .. and for those that wonder why I speak of sex why I address that and dont consider it trashy or inappropriate and why we believe it serves to help conquer ignorance and also contributes to humanity and furthering good thats been done by contributing another person who can help ease human sufferances and because you care for that child in way that ppl care for nothing else similarly, serves to increase awareness of what hurts and why and whats to be done and so on..) he left to go into the forests China to contemplate ( and something similar to I have done myself for those who don't remember). It was in the forest that he grew thin and couldn't find food as he sat having removed himself from all painful sights of seeing the hurting world unfold around him when a young woman saw him in the forest... weak and dying and clearly without food.
                        The woman offered him some food and eventually after some persuasion, he began to eat again and decided that ascetism as an extreme, was nOt something he would advocate.. what good are you dead when you could do much more ...
                        there's this insight one might stumble across about taking only what you need ... when you meditate alot, you realise that like for the yogis and damo and so forth, if all you're doing is sitting and meditating then you don't need to eat at all ... and then the realisation comes that this is selfish .. because if life is so bad to want to remove yourself from it, then the world needs you and because you've seen this and other insights regarding attatchments , if you were 100% about your benificence or just really sure you didn't like what you were would make attempts to change things ... which typifies mahayanism and is whats meant when you hear said that someone like a shaolinbuddhist for example ..or a boddhisattva might want to sacrfice their own peace to bring others closer to theirs ..therefore moving up in the spectrum of spiritual development ..

                        read this

               case you missed it, IronCrosses episode according to the post by another student of YanMings and a medical practionerof 25 + yrs that was present at the time, was a reoccurring event ... an having at the time been in his seizured state has no recollection of the assistance they provided him ( except the conversation he had with YanMing about changing his thinkng to acheive better health)and neglected to mention how they not only took care of him during the acute phase but offered to drive him home and the student fed him at his own restaurant and also offered IronCross a bed in his own home so he woudn't have to drive should he feel he couldn't safely get home.
                        ..quite a different account to that given by IronCross... apparently suffering seizure where environmental coonciousness or awarenes is comprimised and recollection of time of which unreliable .. he would nOt win that law suit and neither YanMing nor his school could have handled that situation any better.

                        The point still being that when you experience is a great opportunityto understand yourself and your humanity ... Yan Ming in the grain of Ch'an teaching, tried to steer IronCross toward this.
                        Imo he acted appropriately on all levels. If you disagree then I'm sorry you don't understand.


                        Blooming Lotus
                        Last edited by Unregistered; 08-23-2006, 11:00 PM.


                        • #42
                          By now I think everyone you ask will have a different account of what happened that night...

                          It doesnt matter... simple fact... if a medical emergency comes up call an ambulance.. don't even take the chance... anything else is gross incompetence...

                          I don't know how much clearer I can make it.. EVERY doctor I talked to agreed an ambulance should have been called.. what the hell is wrong with you??? I've been asking myself the same question about the people there that are trying to justify everything they do with some mis quoted buddhist saying.... even when its wildly inappropriate...

                          I don't even think I wanna talk about this anymore.... Make up your own minds about what you wanna think.... It doesn't matter to me... I never plan on going back there... You wanna worship yan ming or even jsut train there thats fine go forward... I told my story in all its insanity... and hope it just allowed people to see things from a different angle.... The USAST is not all roses and sunshine as they portray it and want everyone to believe... go back and read my posting on what a Cult is... you will find some creepy similarities... when I read that I got chills and thought good lord what is that place?

                          But yeah... it doesn't matter... beleive whatever... I don't feel like arguign point for point every single detail.... whether or not it happened before.... whether or not the moon was waxing or waining... whether or not I am half vampire... or whatever else... NONE OF IT MATTERS..... the point is in the event of a serious medical situation those in chanrge were less than responsible and were nothing short of incompetant.... then the whole fall out afterwards... blame everything on me...

                          YOu know what... if blaming me satisfies you in some way.. if it helps maintain your world view and help you hold onto your faith in Yan ming or shaolin or whatever else your part of... then fine go ahead... Blame me and only me... I really don't mind if you do.... In fact when we talk I will admit full guilt to your face... This will satisfy you I believe.... and all will be well in your world...

                          All is already well in my world... I am happy training where I am.. I am glad I am out of there... I still have great friends in my life... what else could I ask for...

                          It doesn't matter... the truth always comes out eventually...

                          I have a sneaking feeling in 6 months a year 2 years, 3 years,.... eventually.. I will meet these same people that are hating on me now who will have left shaolin too with a similar type of story....

                          I was told the same thing by ex students years ago but laughed it off... I said Nah that couldnt be me Im so happy there and everything makes sense to me.. I believe in the philosophy and whats going on there... Yan ming is always so cool with me.. that could never happen...

                          I don't look forward to that day... because thats a sad day and a needless day.. like my own... none of them ever have to happen... yet they keep happening over and over... ask yourself why that is... and be honest truly honest when you answer.....
                          The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!


                          • #43

                            I'm going to go ahead and asssume you're in your twenties.. because thats the psychology I'm hearing.

                            Several times through you posts I've hear you mention how you think you're being blamed..
                            that's not the case.
                            its sad that when these things are presented to particularly men in their twenties with raging egos and so forth that when its suggested they look inside themselves for better ways to prevent their hardships, they often take it to mean that if they admit they could tune their awareness and find some growth that it means they're somehow inferior ...
                            its a superior man who can do that and when you loose ego there iis nothing to be embarressed about and only a better quality of mind to find... Yan Ming is a father. His son is not that much younger than yourself.. and I believes he cares for you.

                            If you think pursuing a lawsuit will help you feel good and feel justice would e seved by that then by all means go for it.. I just don't think you'd win and should brace yourself for what you might hear about the reality of what happened in that class and th treatment you were provided.

                            We're almost going around in circles now so I'm going to leave you with it. I'm sorry for your experience and hope you consider some meditation on it regardless.

                            Blooming Lotus
                            Last edited by Unregistered; 08-24-2006, 12:06 AM.


                            • #44
                              What the crap is wrong with you... I never said I WAS persuing a lawsuit... everyone else here told me I should... I said I didn't want to.... for that very reason.. what the hell good would it do....

                              So to satisfy you.... I am wrong 100% Yan ming is right 100% I was wrong in everything I ever said ever.... this lesson he is teaching me now and taught me then is so amazing I am growing in impossible new ways because of it... its helping me reach the same buddha nature he currently has.... Following him is the true path towards enlightenment... I honestly believe that now... seriously... no lie...

                              I'm gonna go wait outside the temple in the rain for as many days as it takes for him to let me back in....
                              The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!


                              • #45
                                Thread is closed.

                                I'm back.

                                BL, you're "reinstated". Back to HELL. Forever. Your password is looney, change it. Your IP addresses have been unbanned.

                                Better to keep you in HELL where you belong, than have you completely screw up the Guest section.
                                Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                                "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                                (more comments in my User Profile)