Shaolins vs. UFC/Pride

[raul]

U think that any of the Pride/UFC figthers could take on any of the Shaolins?

I think that the real shaolins, the ones out there in the mountains who are training
right now at this moment, the ones who began training since 4 and by the time
they 20 they got 16 years of experience and know to perfection all of the forms
are the strongest force in the whole world.

What y`all think?

[Maestro]

well..

well, they are a force to be reckoned with thats for damn sure..as far as being the best on earth, well i hope not

as for them going up against the "ufc guys" well, really thats just a dumb comparrison anyway..i mean i guess its fair to consider the ufc fighters to be the cream of the crop but really, they arent. if they were then i dunno dont you think thats pretty damn pathetic? seriously think about that, if what we see from this site and on tv or wherever about the shaolin monks at present or these UFC fighters etc, if this is the best we as a race have to offer in the field of unarmed combat, isnt that a little underpar? i mean come on now

as for my oppinion ill use good ole yan ming as an example, to me there isnt 1 fighter i can think of in the ufc, pride, king of the cage or k1 that could take him down, he just hands down beats them in almost every aspect of fighting, sure hes probably no insano grappler but grappling is overrated in that most people think its so essential when really its not, grappling isnt one of the best ways of fighting, no all fights do not go to the ground, and not everyone is gonna be screwed if they do hit the ground if they do not know grappling techinques like bjj or whatnot

anyway, thats just my 2cents on the subject

peace

[doc]

Well, not to put Shaolin down, but you are talking about a significant difference in body mass. A very significant difference. Something which really shouldn't be ignored.

JT, our school's boxing coach, thinks Xingwei is the fastest thing he's ever seen. Wouldn't want to fight him. But, he also says, "one punch...." JT is pretty huge, and all muscle.

Think about it.

[daodejing]

Well doc, that's all true. But we are leaving out certain factors. Like iron shirt qigong. And the "shi xingwei kicks boxer in knee before he can land a punch, tearing connective tissue and crippling said boxer" factor. And maestro, if you hit the ground with a bigger guy on top of you and you don't know how to grapple (and assuming your oppenent does know how) you are in a bad bad bad spot. Basically, you're ****ed. Unless your chin na is good enough that you can break his wrist while you're both falling. But thats another huge factor. Needless to say, as doc mentioned, wieght is a huge factor. But if youre kicks are strong enough to shatter concrete and fast enough to function well in a fightl, you can easily neutrilize the weight factor by feinting a jab to the face while kicking through the oppenents lead leg.

One last thing, maestro, you're entirely correct, UFC is not the best our race has to offer in unarmed combat. A friend of mine who studies a particular style of Xingyiquan had a senior student from his school apply for UFC. They wouldn't let him in because of the style he had trained in. Higher level xingyiquan uses alot of qi and jing release through its striking techniques to the extent that a well trained practitioner can cause massive stagnation of qi in the channels with a single strike. And frankly I understand why they wouldnt let him in. Its not a very spectator sport if one guy just dodge and blocks a couple punches, then delivers a single rapid punch to the abdomen, and steps back to watch his opponent writhe on the ground. And thats just one example of UFC not allowing higher level internal martial artists to compete in their tourneys, it has happened with plenty of other people.

[shaolinstylee]

Um, I'd have to disagree.. these guys have come up with some of the most effective ways to train for the way they fight, they are in disgustingly good shape, and have lots of skill. I'd take CroCop over just about any other striker.

[arhat]

Just one punch...

That's also what Yan Ming says, lol...

DDJ- it would be interesting to apply to the UFC as some kind of ubermaster...just to see if they really reject based off of skill set. I know they have several hundred rules but never heard of them dismissing stylists because of their style before.

[shaolinstylee]

I know they have several hundred rules but never heard of them dismissing stylists because of their style before.

I don't remember ever hearing that either.

[Maestro]

hiyaa!

well, im not saying internal martial artists are superior or that this method of training is better then that, all im saying is i dont think the ufc fighters are "it" i used Yan Ming as an example of superiority because hes an easy example and one i doubted to get any bias over..

the weight thing yea dont get me wrong dao, ive been in the situation where a big guy has been on top of me out in the damn woods in the snow, alright so i seriously know how it feels to have to fight someone like that espcially when you do NOT know how to get them off ya but, still that doesnt mean much to me, because A im not a good example since for one then i was a trained fighter(still not) in this convo i was reffering trained fighters, but just because someone is bigger then you the weight factor isnt that bad, because well yea they can hold you down and such but sooner or later, if they wanna make a move they gotta let go of somethin, or they gotta try and pull some move on ya, so really its not that big a factor at all..

and i totally agree, it only takes 1 punch, its a fact anyone thats ever been in a fight or even seen one can tell you that, you make that connection..most times, its over

thats where conditioning comes in though..

xingwei or whatever his name is..its interesting to me, i thought all the shaolin monks trained iron body techniques? hmmmmmmmm

[daodejing]

You know, for all the iron body and golden bell cover qigong they do...... I've still never heard of a monk (or anyone) volunteering to take a punch to the face.

[pazman]

dao....wait, i really, really doubt they rejected your xingyi friend because they feared his mythical 'qi strikes.' has this guy ever competed in a mma/nhb tournament before? they are fairly common in the US nowadays, and i'm sure most promoters would love the diversity. more likey, your buddy was rejected from the UFC having no previous tournament fighting experience....am I right?

as for a shaolin monk in UFC/PRIDE tournement....well, i suppose their conditioning is there. fighting within their weightclass i'd suppose many might do okay. the problem would be the ground game. most of the kung fu i've encountered encopassed basic kickboxing and stand-up grappling...generally little to no groundwork. and considering that most of the training at shaolin is either for demonstrations or san shou, i have the sinking feeling that most probably don't have extensive ground wrestling skills.

i'm sure if any were interested, they'd start competing in mma tournements...then maybe we can get past all these people claiming shaolin monks to totall badasses without having any sort of proof to back it up.

[daodejing]

Pazman, entirely possible. We're talking about thirdhand information here. ") Just a story I heard.

But on a side note..... the qi punches aint mythical. Just like acupuncture is not mythical. It works, as long as you know how to do it.

That being said, I can't help but be skeptical when someone makes a rediculous claim like putting up a wall of his qi in a room that the students can't cross.

A writer for kungfu qigong magazine (a lifelong martial artist) wrote an article about the alleged "no touch knockout" some masters were talking about. (this appeared sometime in summer/fall of 2002 I beleive, should be in their archives) Of course to culminate the article he challenged one such master to knock him out. The author was extremely skeptical. Using his qi, and without touching the author, the master delivered the "no touch knock out" technique. The author collapsed to the ground. Though he did not lose consciousness he was very disoriented and unable to stand up for a minute or two.

He concluded his article (if i remember right) by saying that he didn't beleive it was possible to do this to someone, and it was probably a matter of the influence the teacher had mentally over his students. Despite the fact that he fell on his ass and was too dizzy and out of it to get up immediatly.

My point is, qi is real. Its not magic. Its not myth. There are things you can do with the qi in your body. There are plenty of things you can't do with qi. But its there all the same.

[arhat]

that sounds like the article written by Gene Ching.

He had one of these NTKO guys do their thing on him. Nothing happened.

Those guys have all been pretty much debunked.

There is some hilarious video of them on the net, doing their thing. Anyone who has ever been knocked out, or knocked someone out cold, can tell you they are frauds at worst, at best hypnotists. Knocked out people do not protect themselves as they fall. They just drop.

[arhat]

there was an article, written by one of these no touch master's students...but that it was not well written and there was no double blind experiment, just what the guy wrote. hardly worth the paper it was printed on and they caught a ****load of flack for running the piece. I like the photoshop lens flares they use for 'chi' in some of the pictorials of the internal masters.

[daodejing]

Teehee, thats right up there with Dr. Xinyin who claimed he had changed the molecular wieght of a metal in a lab at a specific beijing university. Needless to say, it was bunk because the university denied him entry into their labs because frankly, he was a quack.

[Maestro]

well

well, "no touch knockouts" or not, i really dont care

my point about the ufc/NHB fighters is that they just arent the best there is, and really they dont even come close, which i am sorry to say because believe it or not i do train with these guys, i have met people from the east and the west coast, ive seen them fight, ive seen them train, ive heard them talk and talk and talk

the fact of the matter is, there are people out there who have something we martial artists like to call root, and they cannot be taken off their feet quite so easily, even if you are getting tackled by ortiz or shamrock, im sorry but there is always going to be someone better and when it comes down to it what we most commonly see in the west as "the greatest in the world" this and that, are just fighters put on ego trips to make more money for fight promoters

when it comes down to it NHB turnys and all are all out to make money, its why there are SOOOOOOO many undermatched fights in UFC and such and its why there are so many rules, these turnys dont comply because they have to, they have to and they half want to so the show will be better for fans

the more bull**** people fill their heads up with about no touch knock outs and qi strikes and such are just gonna make the general public more and more ignorant, the best way to enlighten people about TCMA and qi theory is to show them, and the sad fact of the matter is, most true masters dont give a damn whether or not people believe them anyway