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  • taking down big guys

    Hi folks

    My dojo practices submission grappling. I've jumped on the bandwagon a little late since I've been waiting for everything to heal.

    I frequently find myself wrestling with guys who outweigh me by 50-80lbs. Other than shooting the legs, does anyone have any suggestions about off balancing and taking down someone with that big of a weight difference?

    I've tried riding out the takedown and going to work once I land and have had mixed success. It will work, but first I've got to make the monster let go - which is a job in itself.

    Also, any suggestions as to building the neck muscles? Due to all the choking I endured on Saturday, all the small muscles in my neck are sore. Would building the muscles help?

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

    Mark
    Karate/Jujutsu at Akron Shaw JCC

  • #2
    Neck Muscle training: Well, one of the easiest ways is to have a partner provide resistance as you rotate and move your head around. You can place a shirt or a towel on your head to provide cushioning. You can also exercise the trapezius muscle which provides extra support for the neck. Shoulder shrugs with weights will help strengthen them.

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    • #3
      Hi,

      I'm not sure in the usefulness of the martial application of this, but you wanted to know about building neck muscles, and I remember reading this recently, so here's a couple of excerpts.


      1. Weighted head tilting.


      Position a single weight plate on the top of the head over a towel or other padding. Holding the weight plate in place with both hands, bend at the neck forward and back, using the neck to perform the exercise. The hands’ only purpose is holding the weight on the head securely. Do 8-12 reps for 2-3 sets. Stop for any soreness. Take a little water between sets.


      2. Upright Rowing.


      Grasping a barbell with a close or wide grip, raise the bar to chin height. Keep your elbows above bar level at all times. Do 2-3 sets of 8-12 reps close grip and wide grip. Breathe out on the first movement, in on the second. Keep plenty of drinking water handy. Use a weight belt and spotter.



      3. Dumbbell Shrugs.


      Holding a pair of dumbbells palms inward at arms' length at the sides, lower your arms as far as possible, then shrug the shoulders up as far as possible. Repeat for 8-12 reps. Breathe out on the first movement and in on the second movement. Use care, a weight belt and have plenty of water available.


      4. Head stands.


      Headstands will help strengthen the neck and aid in balance while providing an additional and very safe exercise to this routine. Kneeling, place your hands in front of you and put your head down to form a three-legged tripod. Rest your knees on your thighs then thrust your legs up into the air above you. Balance on your head and hands erect as long as possible. Lower yourself, concluding the exercise. Make sure there are no extraneous objects laying around that you might kick or fall on.


      5. Front shoulder presses, seated.


      By sitting for this exercise we more isolate the upper body and concentrate on its muscle groups including the neck and surrounding muscles. Sit with a barbell on the chest in both hands, gripped at shoulder width. Press the barbell above the head and back down 8-12 times. Do this for 2-3 sets.


      6. Rear shoulder presses, seated.


      This variation lowers the barbell behind the neck. Be careful and use a spotter.



      7. Dumbbell laterals.


      With dumbbell laterals, you perform an exercise similar to rowing. You raise the dumbbells to each side (laterally) and back down again. Follow the aforementioned scheme for sets, reps, and breathing. Have water for drinking and a spotter for accuracy of form.


      Or without weights:



      Neck extension: This exercise primarily targets the sternocleidomastoid with both sides working together. The movement is simple, almost as if you are nodding "yes". Sit in a chair with your feet flat on the ground. Put your hands on your fore head and applying constant tension, slowly move your head from straight up (where you are looking forward) until your chin touches your chest. It is important to keep the tension constant at the same amount and keep your neck slowly moving.

      Neck flexion: The upper most trapezius and the splenius will be the main muscle heads worked in this exercise. The motion is also quite simple. Begin with your head in the starting position and slowly move your head to where you are looking up. Place your hands on the back of your head for resistance. Make sure to do this exercise (as all others) using a full ROM and very slowly.

      Lateral flexion: This movement also uses the sternocleidomastoids, but it targets one side at a time. Sitting in a chair, staring straightforward, move your head as close to the shoulder as possible without moving your upper torso, from there return it to the starting point. It's important to keep your head straight ahead and of course, go slow. Place your hand slightly above your ear in order to add resistance. An example routine: Neck extension: 2 x 8-12 Neck flexion: 2 x 8-12 Lateral flexion: 2 x 8-12


      Hope it helps,


      David
      Attached Files

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      • #4
        Guys, careful with the neck training. There's lots of little bones and discs and shit in there, and they're pretty easy to damage. Make sure you start out slowly, with little resistance. And if you get pain, stop. You're messing with an area of the body that does not take too well to injury.

        Is Yanming eating a lot lately? Allergic to something? He's getting big.

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        • #5
          no problem

          I train in three styles of Jujitsu. now if your dojo is using submission and grappling then why not just employ some tactics from jujitsu such as pressure points or joint manipulations. Most f the peope I train with are bigger than me beacuse I myself am not that big but I have no problem getting the job done..What you need is to learn how to apply joint manipulation and the only thing you would need to strenghten are the wrists and forarms.. Everything else is not nessecary

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          • #6
            i would disagree....joint manipulation usually demands that the practioner be in a dominant postion before any manipulation can succeed. as for everything else being unnecessary, that's bull****. you being a jujitsu man should know that entries require a bit more than joint manipulation techniques.

            my advice: one of my favorite techniques is called ushiro ate. basically, you can fake a shoot and get him to lean or leave a foot a little forward. when is starting to return to position, instead of checking at his upper body with full force, you step around the side to his back and put your chest on his back. most people at this point would try to grab around the waist and chuck the big man over their waist. it works great in wrestling matches when your opponent is your size, but if the guy is way bigger, its not gonna work out all that well. instead, pull back at the top of chest while staying close, and then push straight down when you have him offbalance. the takedown is actually pretty abrupt when executed and is likely to stun him just enough. the only downside to this is that it kind of puts you in a strange position you may not be used to if you do wrestling a lot.

            You can find the tanto no randori version of this move here. Obviously you'd have to adapt it for empty handed wrestling. have fun.
            -Jesse Pasleytm
            "How do I know? Because my sensei told me!"

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            • #7
              Allright, as far as neck excercises go, and avoiding being choked, the best thing you can possibly do is to drop your chin to your chest when they go for the choke and then hold it there. As for excercises, the best/safest one I know of (though its more geared to strengthening the neck so you dont whack your head when falling) is as follows.

              The excercise is simply to lay down on a mat or floor, with your hands at your sides ( by the waist) and use your neck muscles to lift your head up. Then hold it up. Start for 2 minutes. Work your way up to five minutes. Try ten if you're ambitious. Don't forget to breathe.

              The simplest way to take down a much bigger guy lies in being softer than him and timing. There's alot of aikido techniques which are wonderful for taking down a guy whose got 80 lbs on you. Also two particular footsweeps from judo, (though one is a false footsweep).

              The judo techniques are de ashi harai, and sesai tsuri komi ashi (greater foot sweep and lift prop pull foot, i beleive they translate to). Both techniques use the same motion, a footsweep combined with rapid turning of the hands while you have a good grip on your opponents ge. Sort of like twisting a steering wheel so fast you might break it off. Combined with a footsweep delivered by your lead foot.

              But the difference is in timing (and the fact that sesai tsuri komi ashi looks like a footsweep but isnt). De ashi harai is performed successfully only at the moment where your opponent steps forward with his lead foot, at the moment just before he transfers wieght onto that foot. If timed properly the oppenent has just stepped and has no wieght on his lead foot yet, you sweep the lead foot out from under him while using the snapping rotation of your arms to upset his root and bring him off balance.

              Sesai tsuri komi ashi starts the exact same way, but instead of sweeping the foot you come in like you're going to perform a foot sweep, but when your foot gets to his foot you just hold it down to the mat, not stomping his toes, just holding his foot in place. The arm movement is the same. (they both work best with one hand gripping the sleeve and the other hand gripping the lapel of the ge). The timing is different, sesai is performed when the opponent has all his weight on the lead foot and is just begiining to step forward with his rear foot.

              The best way to condition yourself for good footsweeping is to find yourself a nice hallway with concrete walls and no people, shuffle step from side to side, and footsweep the bottom of the wall when you get there, striking with your sole. We used to do this in a class I helped to teach with a bunch of kids ranging from 8 to 13 and it sounded like a thunderstorm inside the building. Or practice your footsweeps on a wooden barrel full of rice or sand, until it shatters. The timing is just as if not more important than having a strong footsweep though. You can do timing drills with a partner by both getting your grip and stepping back and forth in unison, mirroring each other. Tori sweeps, uke falls.
              Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

              Comment


              • #8
                Allright, as far as neck excercises go, and avoiding being choked, the best thing you can possibly do is to drop your chin to your chest when they go for the choke and then hold it there. As for excercises, the best/safest one I know of (though its more geared to strengthening the neck so you dont whack your head when falling) is as follows.

                The excercise is simply to lay down on a mat or floor, with your hands at your sides ( by the waist) and use your neck muscles to lift your head up. Then hold it up. Start for 2 minutes. Work your way up to five minutes. Try ten if you're ambitious. Don't forget to breathe.

                The simplest way to take down a much bigger guy lies in being softer than him and timing. There's alot of aikido techniques which are wonderful for taking down a guy whose got 80 lbs on you. Also two particular footsweeps from judo, (though one is a false footsweep).

                The judo techniques are de ashi harai, and sesai tsuri komi ashi (greater foot sweep and lift prop pull foot, i beleive they translate to). Both techniques use the same motion, a footsweep combined with rapid turning of the hands while you have a good grip on your opponents ge. Sort of like twisting a steering wheel so fast you might break it off. Combined with a footsweep delivered by your lead foot.

                But the difference is in timing (and the fact that sesai tsuri komi ashi looks like a footsweep but isnt). De ashi harai is performed successfully only at the moment where your opponent steps forward with his lead foot, at the moment just before he transfers wieght onto that foot. If timed properly the oppenent has just stepped and has no wieght on his lead foot yet, you sweep the lead foot out from under him while using the snapping rotation of your arms to upset his root and bring him off balance.

                Sesai tsuri komi ashi starts the exact same way, but instead of sweeping the foot you come in like you're going to perform a foot sweep, but when your foot gets to his foot you just hold it down to the mat, not stomping his toes, just holding his foot in place. The arm movement is the same. (they both work best with one hand gripping the sleeve and the other hand gripping the lapel of the ge). The timing is different, sesai is performed when the opponent has all his weight on the lead foot and is just begiining to step forward with his rear foot.

                The best way to condition yourself for good footsweeping is to find yourself a nice hallway with concrete walls and no people, shuffle step from side to side, and footsweep the bottom of the wall when you get there, striking with your sole. We used to do this in a class I helped to teach with a bunch of kids ranging from 8 to 13 and it sounded like a thunderstorm inside the building. Or practice your footsweeps on a wooden barrel full of rice or sand, until it shatters. The timing is just as if not more important than having a strong footsweep though. You can do timing drills with a partner by both getting your grip and stepping back and forth in unison, mirroring each other. Tori sweeps, uke falls.
                Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  odd, why did that double post? eh whateva
                  Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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                  • #10
                    Yeah, I was just going to say remember hip throws with a nice sweep will help you bring down bigger guys, spiral throws, etc.
                    practice wu de

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                    • #11
                      Yeah, uki goshi, harai goshi, and drop knee seo nagi are great hip throws for using against large folk as well. Drop knee seo nagi is alot easier when your opponent is taller than you. Some people cant do the throw right because they just grab the guys shoulder and drop, you need to get your grip, drop to get under his pelvis while keeping your footing, pop up your hips under his, and then come back down and drop to your knees. It's a lovely circular motion, but then all good throws seem to be........
                      Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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                      • #12
                        It's a lovely circular motion, but then all good throws seem to be........
                        I think you've caught a case of the correct and spread it faster than SARS..
                        practice wu de

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                        • #13
                          I can know what you mean. Usually I am the bigger guy, but I was practicing with a guy who had alot of muscle. And I could put him in an arm bar. I was talking with a black belt, and he said I should turn it into a lock. He also said you got to pick what you want to do on him. You could also try distracting him by pating his head or other body parts. Also, if you feel resistance, don't try and go with their strength. Go with it and use it to turn into something else.
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                          • #14
                            Okay, I'm just going to go ahead and sound naive here ( and funnily enough on this one I am :P ) , and I realise that rules here are going to vary but what strikes are you usually allowed and what do you get to use to do it with?? Is there anything besides elbows that are usually restricted???
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                            • #15
                              BL,
                              Since the original post mentioned submission wrestling I'm gonna take a guess and say no strikes at all are allowed. Think judo but just no dogi.

                              And since I'm replying I'll give some more advice for taking down big guys: The technique that sticks out like a sore thumb for me is to shoot for the legs....being the shorter guy this should be no problem. My problem is that the usual leg takedown involves rolling into the legs with the shoulder; I still need lots of practice with this. I'm finding it much easier to instead lift up, upset his balance, and do a quick front sweep as per the front sweep of Decheng's jibengong. The landing position puts both your partner and yourself on the gound but the position isn't so bad.
                              -Jesse Pasleytm
                              "How do I know? Because my sensei told me!"

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