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**juszczec** · 04-23-2003, 08:10 PM

Re: Virtues related to martial arts?

Originally posted by krilin31
How are virtues such as honesty, patience, humility etc, etc. related to martial arts? Required? Can you very easily require that someone have these virtues in order to practice/study a martial art?

These things make it easier for you to work in a group. I think their only relation to MA is, if you don't do these things, no one is going to want to train with you.

Required? No. The most that could be done is to require you to follow whatever rules are set up where you train.

Besides, in the end, any MA is a system of physical skills. There is no moral/emotional component.

Should virtues like this be forced on students of martial arts?

No. One person's morality should never be forced on another.

However, if a teacher knows a student is using their skills to abuse others, I think the teacher must stop teaching the student until this behavior stops. If it recurs or continues, then I think the student needs to be refused training.

I mean, to me, I try to respect all those above me in rank in my dojo (regardless of age) which is a gimme, but also (though this may come partly from my up-bringing) I also try to develop virtues as listed above outside of the dojo.

This is just common sense. The things you list above make it easier for you to deal with (and be dealt with by) peopl.

Though I haven't been specifically told to do this or actually got to the level of Kendo where spiritual enlightenment is used to advance skill.

I'm going to step on some toes, but that's ok.

IMNSHO, I think "spiritual enlightenment" in at least Japanese MA is a poor description of quieting the conscious mind so the you can recognize and react to openings quicker. I feel this has been misrepresented or made greater than what it really is due to poor translation, poor transmission of the idea, people's desire to be part of something mysterious and an effort to sell systems of fighting as methods for self improvement.

Don't get me wrong, I think studying methods of fighting can lead to self improvement as well increased fitness and other health benefits. But that's best case. The vast majority may only learn to fight. And that's ok too.

Even little things like pushing myself to go in to practice every day even though I'm not an especially important member of the team.

Important or no, if you are doing this to get better at kendo then its a good thing. If you can carry this lesson over to other parts of your life, then its a better thing.

Do these virtues come more naturally to those who practice/study martial arts?

Maybe. If you do them, see some good come of them and apply them to life outside the dojo then with practice, it may come easier.

Do you think of these virtues or ones like them as being part of your training?

No. They were part of my upbringing and MA training served to reinforce them. So did college, my first job, my second job, fatherhood, being in the high school band and a host of other things.

Not swearing, no pre-marital sex, kindness to others....?

None of these things have anything to do with MA training.

Mark

**wooden dummy** · 04-26-2003, 10:41 PM

juszczec, you seem to have a very limited idea of what martial arts actually are... and that's okay, as long as it works for you, but I think limiting his idea of MA down to your conceptions is not a good way to go about answering the question. I'm sure you'll agree that the majority of martial artists certainly have a broader idea of how martial art is integral to the artist right through his entire life, in every aspect.

In my experience, the answer to this question really lies within the individual. I've never studied Kendo, so I don't know how deep the training actually goes, but I do know that for someone who is an actual martial ARTIST rather than merely a practitioner of a martial art (the difference is subtle but galaxies wide), the virtues associated with one's philosophy are inextricable from the martial art that one practices. Having said that, these virtues cannot be taught by your martial arts instructor- you have to think about them yourself and come to your own conclusions, as far as applying them to your life outside the dojo.

One's ability to apply these virtues to the practising of one's art varies according to each- it is easy to see how honesty and honour are applied to one's life, but much harder to actually live by that. Simply being totally honest and unashamed of oneself is a very difficult thing- samurai were trained from birth to develop these skills.

Patience is also easy to understand, both in and outside of the martial arts- one must be patient in his training if he is to reach a high level of skill, and one must be patient in life, or else you will be always rushing around, impatient for the next thing to happen- you will never find peace this way.

Humility can be something as simple as being willing to concede a fight to someone who is obviously more skillful than you, rather than simply lose out of foolish pride- both in terms of physical fighting (in martial arts) and in other aspects of life- and again, this takes great strength of character and willpower to really be able to apply it.

Again, I have to tell you that these things cannot be taught, but the longer you spend thinking about them, the stronger you will become in any discipline. To decide how far these things go, you simply have to decide for yourself. Something like not swearing is meaningless- words are merely words- but you have to consider the feelings of the person you are talking to. If they are very offended by swearing, the honourable thing would be to not swear in front of them.

The issue of pre-marital sex is something else altogether- it's really about your feelings for that person. People who live by a code of hedonism and promiscuity simply waste all of their vital energy and become very tired, exhausted and look very old behind the eyes, even though they may actually be quite young- and they start to waste away- that is why they say "the brightest flame burns quickest". Such people die young because of their lack of spiritual consideration- they are unaware of their wasting of vital energy, and once it is gone, they simply die.

In final answer to your question, these virtues are really all down to the development of a "quiet mind"- the ability to think clearly and calmly will lead you to be able to make the right decision- and the proper training of martial arts will help you develop a quiet mind... BUT you won't get there by actively chasing after the quiet mind, you just have to simplify your thoughts... that means practice thinking nothing. You may finding listening intently to the sound of your own breathing helps to clear away all the stray thoughts in your mind, and once that is done, you can think clearly about something, and thereby make the right decisions to apply in your life. hope that helps you.

**juszczec** · 04-27-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by wooden dummy
juszczec, you seem to have a very limited idea of what martial arts actually are... and that's okay, as long as it works for you, but I think limiting his idea of MA down to your conceptions is not a good way to go about answering the question.

Frankly, I think you have too broad an idea of the kind of changes MA training can help a person work in themselves. But, when I started training, I felt the same way. I experienced many of the same things you describe later in your post. The question is, were they already there due to my upbringing or did training at the dojo instill them? Some were, some weren't. However, I don't think you will undergo any large scale changes in character simply by training.

You may use the people you train with as examples and model yourself after them. Your training may help you to not fear a beating if you act according to your conscience. You may develop interpersonal skill by teaching MA that you wouldn't have gotten otherwise.

Or you may not.

Look at the back biting, political bullshit and all around childish behavior exhibited by people running MA organizations (from a local school with a few people to an international organization) both between themselves, their students and members of other organizations. Then tell me MA training causes people to become better.

Go to any weekend MA competition and watch some of the participants and then tell me MA training makes better people.

You can't do it. You simply cannot.

Where do you want to start? J. T. Will imprisoned for selling cocaine? How about the way Ueshiba lived in his youth? Read Angry White Pyjamas and tell me the aikido instructor who deliberately breaks his student's arm has refined his character. How about the local MA who had an arguement with his wife, hit her in the back of the neck with a ridgehand and killed her? How about the instructors who basically lie to their students - "Train like I tell you and you will be invincible" or "I'm too high ranked to workout or spar with you little people?"

The MA world is full of liars, cheats and frauds many of whom are long time practitioners. The MA world is also full of giving, generous, helpful people who go to unbelievable lengths to help others. The teacher who exchanges dojo cleaning for lessons so a student with poor parents can afford to train? How about the teacher who works 2 jobs, just to keep the school open because he's seen the positive effect on kids?

You can't tell me training improves one's character or spirituality.

I'm sure you'll agree that the majority of martial artists certainly have a broader idea of how martial art is integral to the artist right through his entire life, in every aspect.

No. Not the majority. Some do, some don't.

In my experience, the answer to this question really lies within the individual.

I agree. Some people are scum. Pure and simple. And they remain scum for their entire lives. Some people start out that way and make huge changes in their lives to stop being scum. Some never start out as scum and lead exemplary lives from birth. It is all based on the individual.

someone who is an actual martial ARTIST rather than merely a practitioner of a martial art (the difference is subtle but galaxies wide)

Define these terms and tell me the difference.

Having said that, these virtues cannot be taught by your martial arts instructor- you have to think about them yourself and come to your own conclusions, as far as applying them to your life outside the dojo.

Exactly my point. These things are independent of MA training. Just like they are independent of attending church, hanging out with the "wrong" people, reading the Bible (or Koran or Torah) daily and too many others to list.

Simply being totally honest and unashamed of oneself is a very difficult thing- samurai were trained from birth to develop these skills.

I think you are wrong. Samurai were trained to kill other people. I think you are buying into a myth presented in a 17th century samurai "handbook" that became popular during peace time in Japan. Some folks think its messages of unquestioning loyalty to one's superiors was a way to keep a bunch of guys carrying razor sharp swords from killing off the ruling class and establishing themselves as the leadership.

Saying the samurai followed what has come down to us as the code of bushido all the time is as foolish as saying European knights always followed the code of chivalry all the time.

These were soldiers. Concerned about not dying. We need to be honest about the fact that the codes of conduct they followed we're probably dropped the instant it did not suit the purpose of survival.

Again, I have to tell you that these things cannot be taught, but the longer you spend thinking about them, the stronger you will become in any discipline.

Agreed. In other words, you don't have to train in MA to find them. You can find people anywhere who can show you, by example, why you should develop traits like honesty, humility, patience and perseverence.
Then you have to be open to following the example. Then you have to follow the example, difficult or not.

To decide how far these things go, you simply have to decide for yourself. Something like not swearing is meaningless- words are merely words- but you have to consider the feelings of the person you are talking to. If they are very offended by swearing, the honourable thing would be to not swear in front of them.

This is common courtesy. You can learn it anywhere you have a group of people and someone to tell you your behavior is unacceptable.

The issue of pre-marital sex is something else altogether- it's really about your feelings for that person. People who live by a code of hedonism and promiscuity simply waste all of their vital energy and become very tired, exhausted and look very old behind the eyes, even though they may actually be quite young- and they start to waste away- that is why they say "the brightest flame burns quickest". Such people die young because of their lack of spiritual consideration- they are unaware of their wasting of vital energy, and once it is gone, they simply die.

Are you kidding? Vital energy? Waste away and die from sleeping around? Next thing you're going to tell me is men should conserve their "essence" because spreading too much "essence" around causes them to become weak. Wanna talk about how the male body creates hundreds of millions of little bits of this "essence" every day?

Its even simpler than you describe. If you do things that aren't good for you with people that aren't good for you and don't stop even when it makes you feel not good, then you are going to be a mess - physically, emotionally, spiritually.

In final answer to your question, these virtues are really all down to the development of a "quiet mind"- the ability to think clearly and calmly will lead you to be able to make the right decision- and the proper training of martial arts will help you develop a quiet mind...

The quiet mind idea falls down. Watch. Explain all the good, virtuous people who have never been in a dojo, dojang, kwoon, boxing gym, or wresting gym, who have never done a lick of exercise and know nothing of the concept of a quiet mind.

BUT you won't get there by actively chasing after the quiet mind, you just have to simplify your thoughts... that means practice thinking nothing. You may finding listening intently to the sound of your own breathing helps to clear away all the stray thoughts in your mind, and once that is done, you can think clearly about something, and thereby make the right decisions to apply in your life.

Agreed.

hope that helps you.

It did. I noticed some changes when I began meditating. I noticed some changes when I started practicing karate. I noticed changes when I graduated high school, started college, stopped drinking alot, started caring about whose toes I stepped on, started teaching children, got married, became a father, bought a sports car, took a job for the wrong reasons, took a job for the right reasons. See? All you have to do is pay attention to what you are doing and learn from it.

Mark

**Lipster** · 04-27-2003, 04:13 PM

I agree with the general idea of Marks post.

Although, "Are you kidding? Vital energy? Waste away and die from sleeping around?"

Sure. It's a widely accepted fact that your life essence in lost through ejaculation. Excessive ejaculation leads to excessive loss of this energy. It can result in hair loss, that's where the phrase bald men make better lovers comes from. You do this over a long period of time and you will considerably lessen your life energy.

**wooden dummy** · 04-27-2003, 07:01 PM

You can't tell me training improves one's character or spirituality

I just did.

I also said that improvement of character through training lies completely within the individual- that means that you have to be aware of what you're aiming for in terms of character development (or whatever else you happen to be aiming for) to actually get any benefits in that area.

Let's take an analogy- meditation, for example. Now, you can sit down cross-legged and close your eyes and look like you're concentrating real hard, but unless you're actually going through the mental process of clearing your mind, then this meditation isn't going to get you anywhere. Let's take another example- let 's say you want to be a car mechanic. A person might think, "In order to become more intelligent and learn these skills, i should read some books"; but you can't just sit down and read any random book about any subject and expect to learn more specifically about being a car mechanic.

It's the same with training in anything, martial arts included. A lot of practitioners of martial arts (notice I don't say "martial artists") really are a bunch of idiots- for instance, there used to be a guy in my karate class, let's call him Max (because that's his name...) who made no bones about the fact that he was in the class PURELY to fight. He didn't care about any other aspect of the class, and actually found it quite boring when we weren't sparring. Now, Max isn't going to learn anything about life through the MA class, because that's not what he's trying to get out of training.

I think it's become fairly obvious that the reason you don't recognise that any of these things are possible through MA training is simply because it's not what you have focused on- and because it's not what you've looked for in your training, you seem to have developed the opinion that your training hasn't provided it for you because it simply isn't there- this could not be further for the truth. Your training didn't help you find a "quiet mind" because you just didn't look for it. Since that was one of the reasons I first went into MA training, it helped me in this way, because that's what I was looking for in the training. Read any good book on martial arts and you will inevitably find that it says spiritual development is one of the primary benefits of consistent MA training- otherwise why the heck do you think they do it in Taoist and Buddhist temples? Also, a big part of it would be the fact that you're a karateka, and Japanese / Okinawan MA have almost no emphasis whatsoever on chi (ki) training.

And the thing about the samurai fits in with what I'm talking about like this: I'm not saying there were no samurai who didn't follow the bushido, and I'm not saying there are no MA practitioners who don't use MA for personal development... but a samurai who wasn't honourable would be a BAD samurai, in just the same way that an accountant who goes an spends all your money would be a bad accountant, or a lawyer who deliberately gets you imprisoned would be a bad lawyer.

So basically what I'm saying is that while MA and spiritual development are not inextricably connected, to deny that it's there altogether is to miss out on probably the single best thing that you can get from MA training. And no, I'm not saying that MA training is the ONLY way of doing it, either- it's just one way (and IMHO one of the best ways).

It's a widely accepted fact that your life essence in lost through ejaculation. Excessive ejaculation leads to excessive loss of this energy. It can result in hair loss, that's where the phrase bald men make better lovers comes from. You do this over a long period of time and you will considerably lessen your life energy.

incidentally, the same is also true for women... tho not the part about ejaculation, obviously. Something to do with the emotional energy (shen) used. Because of the large amount of energy used by sexual intercourse, it can interact with the individual in one of two ways: if it's "in tune" with your emotional state, it can be benefitial to you, if it's not, then it just takes away more of your own energy- ever see a healthy-looking hooker? Probably not, and apparently that's why. If you've ever noticed the difference between intercourse with someone you don't care about, and someone you're in love with, you know what I mean. That's as much as I understand about it, anyway- I'm not exactly a qigong master or anything.

**wooden dummy** · 04-27-2003, 07:20 PM

I just found this on another site, and I think it illustrates my point better than I've managed to- this is the 1st draught of the foreword to Bruce Lee's script, the "Silent Flute". (Incidentally, does anyone know where i can get a full copy of the script, or if it's possible to get one at all?)

BRUCE LEE'S FOREWARD FROM THE SCRIPT
"THE SILENT FLUTE"
First Draft dated March 27, 1973
Three swordsmen sat at their neighbor, hoping to goad him into a duel. The master seemed to take no notice of them, but when their remarks became ruder and more pointed, he raised his chopsticks and, in quick snips, effortlessly caught four flies on the wing. As he slowly laid down the chopsticks, the three swordsmen hurriedly left the room.

The story illustrates a great difference between Oriental and Western thinking. The average Westerner would be intrigued by someone's ability to catch flies with chopsticks, and would probably say that has nothing to do with how good he is in combat. But the Oriental would realize that a man who has attained such complete mastery of an art reveals his presence of mind in every action. The state of wholeness and imperturbability demonstrated by the master indicated his mastery of self.

And so it is with the martial arts. To the Westerner the finger jabs, side kicks, the back fist, etc., are tools of destruction and violence which is, indeed, one of their functions. But the Oriental believes that the primary function of such tools is revealed when they are self-directed and destroy greed, fear, anger, and folly.

Manipulative skill is not the Oriental's goal. He is aiming his kicks and blows at himself and when successful, may even succeed in knocking himself out. After years of training, he hopes to achieve that vital loosening and equability of all powers, which is what the three swordsmen saw in the master.

In everyday life the mind is capable of moving from one thought or object to another- "being" mind instead of "having" mind. However, when face to face with an opponent in a deadly contest, the mind tends to stick and loses its mobility. Stickability or stoppage is a problem that haunts every martial artist.

Kwan-in (Avalokitesvara), the Goddess of Mercy, is sometimes represented with one thousand arms, each holding a different instrument. If her mind stops with the use, for instance, of a spear, all the other arms (999) will be of no use whatever. It is only because of her mind not stopping with the use of one arm, but moving from one instrument to another, that all her arms prove useful with the utmost degree of efficiency. Thus, the figure is meant to demonstrate that, when the ultimate truth is realized, even as many as one thousand arms on one body may each be serviceable in one way or another.

"Purposelessness, " or "empty-mindedness" or "no art" are frequent terms used in the Orient to denote the ultimate achievement of a martial artist. According to Zen, the spirit is by nature formless and no "objects" are to be harbored in it. When anything is harbored there, psychic energy is drawn toward it, and when psychic energy loses its balance, its native activity becomes cramped, and it no longer flows with the stream. Where the energy is tipped, there is too much of it in one direction and a shortage of it in another direction. Where there is too much energy, it is unable to cope with ever changing situations. But when there prevails a state of "purposelessness" (which is also a stage of fluidity of mindlessness), the spirit harbors nothing in it, nor is it tipped in one direction; it transcends both subject and object; it responds empty-mindedly to whatever is happening.

True mastery transcends any particular art. It stems from mastery of oneself- the ability developed through self-discipline, to be calm, fully aware, and completely in tune with oneself and their surroundings. Then and only then, can a person know himself.

**Maestro** · 04-27-2003, 09:15 PM

hmm

wooden you like the rest of us here have alot left to learn

for one thing bruce lees philosophy isnt that profound..its very interesting but its also incomplete and mostly reguritated and misconstrued..

or its just a plain old copoff of someone elses

read the tao of jeet kune do and youll see what i mean

well i hope anyway..

and your sorta coming off as if we are misunderstanding what your saying and thats not the case..for me anyway

ive just been reading this stuff

but as far as i can tell youve got alot left to understand about whatever it is your reading..

espcially when it comes to asian literature

mark was just trying to say that basically you cant make umbrella terms about martial artists even if they have the same goals as you or whatever

not all martial artists who do this or that are going to be golden children..

and not all people who follow your little steps on how to meditate are going to come out the same way as you..all nice and pretty or whatever

and there mere fact that you assume to know everything there is about meditating ..as if doing 1 thing wrong will lead to the disasterous result of this or that..or whatever is nonsense

if youve been reading any chan lit then its obviously not rubbing off very well because there one thing chan expounds most is the countless paths that lead to enlightenment

the realisation can come in any form..any time..any place ..any being

as soon as you realise there is nothing left to attain the better off youll be

peace..and pls dont take offense cause i dont mean any

**jeffpeg** · 04-27-2003, 10:58 PM

juszczec, you seem to have a very limited idea of what martial arts actually are... and that's okay, as long as it works for you, .

That's textbook stuff...lmao! Way to insult juszczec and back off in the same sentence.

but I think limiting his idea of MA down to your conceptions is not a good way to go about answering the question

Hmmm, so if juszczec has a different view on what spiritual development in martial arts training is then you do then he's limiting himself? A bit ironic don't you think?

A friend once described passive aggressive this way..."Passive aggressive is saying F- you with out actually using the words F- you." Glad that all the spiritual development that you've gained from your Kendo training is working for you.

Food for thought (I'm sure your spiritual fortitude can withstand a little critical observation),

Jeff

**juszczec** · 04-28-2003, 12:24 AM

Originally posted by Lipster001
It's a widely accepted fact that your life essence in lost through ejaculation.

Widely accepted by who? What is life essence and how is it related to semen?

Or did I not get the joke?

Mark

**juszczec** · 04-28-2003, 01:18 AM

Originally posted by wooden dummy
I also said that improvement of character through training lies completely within the individual- that means that you have to be aware of what you're aiming for in terms of character development (or whatever else you happen to be aiming for) to actually get any benefits in that area.

Agreed.

I don't think I got the point of the meditation and car mechanic paragraph. Could you explain it?

It's the same with training in anything, martial arts included. A lot of practitioners of martial arts (notice I don't say "martial artists") really are a bunch of idiots- for instance, there used to be a guy in my karate class, let's call him Max (because that's his name...) who made no bones about the fact that he was in the class PURELY to fight.

Max was a small minded man who couldn't understand the point to doing drills. He'd be useful to have around if you wanted to have a sparring session with someone who wouldn't be overly concerned about your welfare. But you usually end up having to whack that kind harder than right simply to prevent them from doing it to you. It does nothing for the skills sparring is supposed to develop, but it can be good practice. Its not for everyone, and you shouldn't do it often, but you can learn from it.

He didn't care about any other aspect of the class, and actually found it quite boring when we weren't sparring. Now, Max isn't going to learn anything about life through the MA class, because that's not what he's trying to get out of training.

On the contrary, he may learn there's more than one drill to use when trying to develop skill. He may have a great revelation when he runs into someone who has his love of fighting and has done the drilling he hasn't.

Then again, he may not.

Either way, hopefully he'll go away. People can't learn when they are afraid of a beating.

I think it's become fairly obvious that the reason you don't recognise that any of these things are possible through MA training is simply because it's not what you have focused on - and because it's not what you've looked for in your training, you seem to have developed the opinion that your training hasn't provided it for you because it simply isn't there- this could not be further for the truth.

I think its fairly remarkable that, based on a few emails, you can read my mind and know all about what I've been doing in my training. You should take that act on the road.

Your training didn't help you find a "quiet mind" because you just didn't look for it. Since that was one of the reasons I first went into MA training, it helped me in this way, because that's what I was looking for in the training.

Well, you're wrong. I didn't go looking for it, because I didn't know it existed. But I was exposed to the concept, found a way it could benefit my training, researched ways to develop it, practiced and got what I wanted.
So, my training did help me develop mushin.

Read any good book on martial arts and you will inevitably find that it says spiritual development is one of the primary benefits of consistent MA training-

Name three.

otherwise why the heck do you think they do it in Taoist and Buddhist temples?

They were good places to hide. Didn't the Shaolin temple harbor lots of anti government rebels? Wasn't that one of the reasons it was attacked and destroyed?

Or are you going to tell me Damo really did walk across the Himalayas, listen to screaming ants, teach the wimpy monks kung fu and tear off his eyelids?

Also, a big part of it would be the fact that you're a karateka, and Japanese / Okinawan MA have almost no emphasis whatsoever on chi (ki) training.

Agreed.

And the thing about the samurai fits in with what I'm talking about like this: I'm not saying there were no samurai who didn't follow the bushido,

Look around. Find out who wrote the Hagakure and when. Then come back and tell me it wasn't written during a period of peace when samurai were government pencil pushers in order to keep them in line.

If I'm wrong, I'll say so in a post to the russbo forum of your choice.

If I'm right, you have to do the same.

and I'm not saying there are no MA practitioners who don't use MA for personal development... but a samurai who wasn't honourable would be a BAD samurai,

Didn't the first Shogun seize power in a rebellion? Didn't Musashi fight on the losing side of a war and just kind of disappear when they went looking to collect his head? Go read history and find out about the political intrigue amongst the Japanese ruling class.

Then discuss honor amongst the samurai.

in just the same way that an accountant who goes an spends all your money would be a bad accountant, or a lawyer who deliberately gets you imprisoned would be a bad lawyer.

However, these guys would be considered aberrations and stopped from practicing their professions. What happens when a MA teacher wants his students to recreate feudal Japanese culture in the 21st century West?

The corruptions and misinterpretations of an unfamiliar culture have been used to con innocent people.

So basically what I'm saying is that while MA and spiritual development are not inextricably connected, to deny that it's there altogether is to miss out on probably the single best thing that you can get from MA training. And no, I'm not saying that MA training is the ONLY way of doing it, either- it's just one way (and IMHO one of the best ways).

And I'm saying its not the best way. Trying to link spiritual development with learning how to hurt someone so they stop trying to hurt you allows some people to not even gain useful self defense skills.

Spiritual development is a side benefit at best. If it happens great, but there are plenty of other more direct ways to get it.

incidentally, the same is also true for women... tho not the part about ejaculation, obviously. Something to do with the emotional energy (shen) used. Because of the large amount of energy used by sexual intercourse, it can interact with the individual in one of two ways: if it's "in tune" with your emotional state, it can be benefitial to you,

OMG! If she likes the guy she's sleeping with she feels good. If she doesn't she feels lousy. Shen? In tune with an emotional state?

More plainly put - if you do stuff that's bad for you, you'll feel bad.

ever see a healthy-looking hooker? Probably not, and apparently that's why.

Where and when do drug use, no medical care, STDs, and beatings from pimps and johns come into the picture?

Mark

**daodejing** · 04-28-2003, 02:10 AM

In my opinion, the only virtue worth cultivating is freedom from emotional attatchments. Achieve that and all other things which most label "virtues" will become the only visible symptoms of your state of mind. This is not limited to those who practice martial arts. It is however limited to those who achieve a lasting state of bliss in their lives.

May I excuse what Lipster said about commonly accepted theories. He meant to say it is commonly accepted IN QIGONG CIRCLES that male ejaculation leads to loss of jing. Let me also just say that many of us here seem caught up in the non-existant westerner/oriental dichotomy, as well as some other false dualities. IT DOES NOT EXIST, it is a fabricated predjudice generalization which holds little if any bearing when accurately applied to the masses. There are just as many greedy hateful inconsiderate people in china as there are in the U.S., probably even more. Ok, nuf said. I'll shut up now before I start writing a book into this post.

**wooden dummy** · 04-28-2003, 09:58 AM

Look, it's not as if I just made this stuff up to piss you off. This is all common knowledge, accepted by a hell of a lot more people than you seem to realise, or are willing to admit. I really couldn't care less whether you believe any of it or not, or even whether some of it is true- the point is, MY stuff makes sense to me, and it works perfectly. YOUR stuff makes sense to you, and if you're 100% happy with it then that's fantastic, keep it up.

If I'm wrong, I'll say so in a post to the russbo forum of your choice.

If I'm right, you have to do the same.

Yeah, and while we're at it I'll go tell mummy on you, and then you'll have to sit in the corner until you're vewwy vewwy sowwy.

Look, I don't know why you're turning this into some kind of confrontation. I'm just trying to provide a counterpoint to your answer to the original question. Who's arguing? I was never trying to "insult" anyone with any evil malevolent "passive aggressive" comments, I was just saying that with juszcec's original post he was basically talking as if he was trying to tell this guy "NO it's not in ANY WAY possible for MA training to help you out with the rest of your life outside of MA"- and that IS, whether you like it or not, a LIMITED view- not WRONG necessarily, just not giving the whole picture to this guy who's obviously confused and looking for some help with these issues...

Oh, and Kendo? Are you kidding? I've never done Kendo in my life.

The stuff about meditation and the car mechanic was to show that just going through the motions of something doesn't mean that it's going to get you where you want to go, ie. while MA training isn't DEFINITELY going to get you anywhere spiritually, if you use it to its fullest potential then it certainly will.

And Maestro, for the LAST TIME, YES I KNOW Bruce Lee's philosophy wasn't his own original ideas, but it's not as if I posted it to say "Ooh, BL's such a genius".. in fact he's an idiot, okay, but the point is he was talking about more or less exactly what I'm talking about, and I think it's put quite well there.

And I don't think you got what I was saying about Max- the point is he wasn't in any way interested in ma, or personal development or anything of the sort, he just wanted to get into fights- and I don't think you can honestly disagree when I say he's not going to get anything out of MA training, because he's not trying to get anything out of it. Anyway, he left ages ago- I used to beat him all the time

Well, you're wrong. I didn't go looking for it, because I didn't know it existed. But I was exposed to the concept, found a way it could benefit my training, researched ways to develop it, practiced and got what I wanted.

..Well, that's great then... it's sort of the exact opposite of what you were saying before, but good for you (no sarcasm). If you'd said that earlier, a lot of this (mutual) misunderstanding could have been avoided (certainly on my part, anyway).

They were good places to hide. Didn't the Shaolin temple harbor lots of anti government rebels? Wasn't that one of the reasons it was attacked and destroyed?

The MONKS, I was talking about the MONKS.

Didn't the first Shogun seize power in a rebellion? Didn't Musashi fight on the losing side of a war and just kind of disappear when they went looking to collect his head?

Does anyone really, genuinely care? I only mentioned samurai once, as a reasonable, quick example of a group commonly thought to apply personal virtues to every aspect of life- we don't need to make a history lesson out of it.

More plainly put - if you do stuff that's bad for you, you'll feel bad.

Exactly: and that's because of chi loss. There's really nothing mystical about any of it- the whole thing about losing chi is as simple as saying that when you cut yourself, you lose blood. You might say, "why do you need to overcomplicate it like that? Why do you need to know all this crap?" Well, why is it useful to know that when you have a headache, you can take ana aspirin and it'll go away? So that you can do something about it. Why is it so hard to accept that any of this is true? I'm not trying to convert your views or anything, I just want you to accept that there's something in there that makes sense to some people, rather than just saying "No, it's NOT true, I WON'T believe you". I'm just telling you that this is how it is, and it DOES work for people who study it. There's nothing special about it or anything, and I don't really care whether anyone "believes" any of it or not, heck I sure didn't invent it.

Where and when do drug use, no medical care, STDs, and beatings from pimps and johns come into the picture?

Fine, a healthy-looking, promiscuous person then. It really doesn't matter what term you use.

peace..and pls dont take offense cause i dont mean any

OK great, but y'know you shouldn't really have to say that... your post still just sort of SOUNDS insulting.

And yeah, I'm aware that I probably sound as if I'm trying to be offensive toward juszcec... but that was never my intention. All I said originally was "You have a limited view of MA"... which, based on juszcec's original post, is TRUE and I will stand by it. I never said he was WRONG, or an idiot, or anything like that, but people just started coming back at me with insults. Maybe now I know how it feels to be Maestro, lol

**Maestro** · 04-28-2003, 12:17 PM

you know..

you know because ive already done what your doing

and its obvious to me..but it wont be to you thats for sure..

i see what your point is..i see what your trying to say, but your still having trouble seeing what mark is saying..but not so much as before

and i can see how your posts are coming off as offensive..they arent to me but i can see how..you are writing aggresively..like i do all the time

its like a complex or something..it developes when people are to lame to understand and you really gotta drive the point home..its the same thing your trying to do now

you keep using different words to explain the same idea you portrayed earlier and its probably annoying you a little bit that people are having a tough time understanding you..its just some of them are i think..not me i dunno why

and also your having a little trouble understanding mark

also you make some close ended statements and thats just like food for the wolves around here to just pick up and take charge at..

and bruce lee wasnt an idiot..the guy is encourageable..i

i was just saying..if you what you think he wrote is profound or put in good words to what you mean..maybe you should analyse what your trying to say..you called him an idiot and yet you quote him as if hes stating your oppinion in a better way for you..the guy you called an idiot..as if this one moment he had makes it all better just for this post..then the rest is bullshit..

sorry that just doesnt work..but it doesnt matter to me anyway im not that interested in this post..

peace

**Lipster** · 04-28-2003, 01:10 PM

Mark,

"Widely accepted by who? What is life essence and how is it related to semen?"

Sorry, as Dave and Dao pointed out, I meant Jing, which is the essence. Chi is one product of it. And I meant to say accepted in schools of thought that are consistent with a life energy ideology. Your life essence is what gives you your vitality. It gives you the energy to move, grow, live. Some have more than others, which explains why some people can screw around alot and still have more energy than others who don't. Cultivating and building this energy will give you higher quality of physical life and is integral for training in the levels that the monks do for example, because it's simply not possible to train to those extents without large amounts of this energy. As some guys mentioned, this is why people feel drained after sex, you've lost some essence. How exactly it's related to semen, again, I'm not fully schooled on, but it's a recurrent theme in these schools of thought. I don't have to know the mechanics in something to practice it.

"OMG! If she likes the guy she's sleeping with she feels good. If she doesn't she feels lousy. Shen? In tune with an emotional state?

More plainly put - if you do stuff that's bad for you, you'll feel bad"

And as Wood explained well, you'll feel bad because the bad stuff you're doing effects you badly and makes you feel bad. You could say stabbing yourself makes you feel bad. It does. Because it results in blood loss and so on. So doing bad things do make you feel bad, I was just explaining how. Which is always useful.

"Let me also just say that many of us here seem caught up in the non-existent westerner/oriental dichotomy, as well as some other false dualities. IT DOES NOT EXIST..."

Very true point Dao.

Food for the wolves, lol

Anyway, I don't think either of you two intends to be confrontational to eachother, so chill out...

Peace

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