Muscles and strenght for fighting efficiency(not for sowing off on the beach!)

[flow]

I have questions here.
Do you guys from Gong Fu(or others),focus on muscle training?How do you train for your strenght?Is it recommended to pull weights and if yes in which way?

I often see that very muscled fighters have no speed-and speed=power if i'm right.For exemple M Thai fighters(mostly from Thailand) often look skinny but have a devastating power...But i also noticed that after pulling some light or middle weights i had more striking power with my upper body(even if we don't pull weights during training,i did that at home).

So do you guys have recipies/exercises with or without weights/ for achieving muscle strenght and speed/power?
Also are there some good techniques to increase the lower body strenght(for the kicks and knees)?

[doc]

Try reading this thread, I think you'll find some useful and relevant information here. Got more to say on this, but later.

http://x.russbo.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1361

[daodejing]

Well, for starters, working with heavy weapons can seriously build muscle. Any weapons training if your not used to it will build muscle. I use an 8 pound metal staff for my strength training.

As for lower body, I use massage therapy. Try rocking back and forth applying pressure in a bow stance where you constantly use rotation of feet and lower abdomen. When you spend a few hours a day, a couple days of week doing that, you build up some good leg and lower abdominal power.

Also, i developed a massive increase in ab definition after spending a week on vacation canoeing and kayaking. When you use proper form to paddle a canoe or kayak, it gives you an intense lower abdominal work out, and builds the muscles of the lower back.

[LeiYunFat]

Oh yes, something that the monk jumping thread didn't cover-- abs. Abs and core workouts are very important, as the core is where the power is derived. But it gets deeper than just having the right muscle groups for fighting. A bunch of big, hulking football players may be the worst fighters on the planet when compared to the fighting machines in MT. That's because they don't train to fight. It's wrong to mistake guys who workout and have huge muscles for fighters. What's worse is to compare these people to muay thai competitors who basically eat, sleep and train for fights. To become a better fighter, don't ignore fight training over working out your muscles. In a fight, you aren't going to KO the guy with sit-ups.

[onesp1ng]

Lei, that's a good point. I remember my previous shifu would love when big muscular guys came in to strut their stuff. He would say something like, if it's not arm swings, then gong bu will get em..(beside other things) just meaning that these guys aren't used to that kind of workout. They look strong, but when faced with ten minutes of something so basic like arm swings, they'll probably cry. Big boys, like football players, are usually very tight in the upper body, making them comparitively slower in some respects..

g

[flow]

Ok i surely didn't express myself correctly,because we all think the same here.I have my fighting training,making me very skinny.My question was how to build some muscles after a training where you loose liters of water....Obviously we build some muscles in a fighting way,but then i'm looking for a personnal workout do get some good extra strenght.I totally agree that heavy builded footballers couldn't stand ma bu for 1 minute,and that's not the body i want.When i see heavy builded fighters i find them pityful.I'm looking for some "stronger builded-not heavy-"body.

The jumping thing is awesome,as well as the weapon training i guess but i don't use any and don't have any.As well as i don't do canoe or kayak,but if i have an occasion for sure i will try.I'm convinced by the stances,and every fighter should use it for the legs.Still i'm sure that here many people have their own techniques and it would be great to hear it....

Thanks to you all anyway

[LeiYunFat]

Well work a lot of back, shoulder, and core muscles. Work with a lot of body weight exercises, work with a lot of high-rep workouts, etc. Heheh, if you're stressed about losing water that could go to your muscles, drink some. That or take some creatine, which will get more water into your muscles.

But it's hard to differentiate what is a useful muscle and a useless muscle. I'd say a whole body workout. A good mucsle for fighting is also your heart. So there are no specific muscles that fighters have as opposed to regularly built people. If you look at MT fighters or the monks, they are the best at what they do. Their bodies tend to be very well rounded. There is an emphasis on the core, but for something as general as fighting, you tend to find specifications as useless. The best fighters use their body as a weapon, as opposed to using their deltoids to reak havoc on their opponents.

[juszczec]

Ok i surely didn't express myself correctly,because we all think the same here.I have my fighting training,making me very skinny.My question was how to build some muscles after a training where you loose liters of water....

Drink liters of water to replenish what you've lost, eat healthy, sleep and then lift the next day.

There is plenty of information about weight lifting/training out there on the 'net. That's where I'd start.

I've done routines involving machines/free weights/chi shi/Clubbells and supplemented with exercise bands. I work the abs as much as possible. Almost any MA training builds the legs- especially forms with exaggerated stances. Running builds the legs alot.

I totally agree that heavy builded footballers couldn't stand ma bu for 1 minute,and that's not the body i want.

Not everyone has the genetics/diet to build big, ripped muscles. Since you concentrate on something OTHER than weight lifting, chances are you won't either. Also, don't discount big strong guys as opponents. The amount of time you can stand in a horse stance doesn't mean beans when someone who weighs 210lbs hits you in the head.

When i see heavy builded fighters i find them pityful.

Yeah, I always felt so bad for Holyfield and Tyson when they were at the top of their sport.

The jumping thing is awesome

Indeed. Just be careful how you land so you don't mess up your knees. Offhand, I'd say legs are possibly the most important for long range stand up fighting. Abs come a close second.

I'm convinced by the stances,and every fighter should use it for the legs.

If this is standing in a stance for an extended period of time, remember how you'll want to use the strength you develop. You're going to want to use it when moving towards/away from an attacker while attacking/defending.

Still i'm sure that here many people have their own techniques and it would be great to hear it....

I've been weight training for about 15 years. I've used a variety of different routines. The current one is:

a series of "Clubbell" exercises selected from the material available at www.rmax.tv

Therabands for the hip flexors, extensors (or whatever the opposite of flexor is), abductor and adductors

Therabands for rotator cuff

either crunches or planks or hip raises for the abs

the 4 Corner Balance Drill (see www.rmax.tv, the 1st archived online magazine) for legs

If you want any previous routines, just say so and I'll post them.

Mark

[Maestro]

ok flow, u want advice on building all different parts of the body in all different ways go here; www.bodybuilding.com

personally, ill tell u this, to me qi gong is better then any body building ive ever done. its the foundation of all your power your jing. without it your shaolin techniques are useless, and its the same for all CMA. the power of jing comes from qi or internal energy. internal energy is the power of the tendons and ligaments, aswell as the qi energy which is abundant when the intent is focused and the breatheing is deep.

when it comes to developing your muscles for either fast or slow twitch fibers, personally i do crunches and hard qi gong for my abdomen

for my legs i practice horse, and some misc exercises for calf and tendon strength. aswell as kicks, alot of em.

hindu pushups are great for the abdomen, lowerback and shoulders, i do them on 3 fingers for the added effect, and what not, i do all my pushups on my fingers anyhow, but regardless pushups are perfect for building mass in select areas, you just need to know which exercises for which muslce.

if your skinny and cant gain muscle, id suggest u look into that website, aswell as your diet.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I'm tiny and lean and rely on other pricipals but still need to remain competitive myself . I've said it before and I'll say it again............ creative bwe, light- meduim weight high rep mixed with higher weight lower rep ( 3 x 6 rep ) set full body resistance and callesthenics are the only way to go!!

Dead set. I'm 44 kgs, and work woth the same weights big old muscley gwailo fitness guru men do and imo, they just don't get it. Look at Bruce lee!! He was only 63 kgs himself! That is tiny for a male athlete!!!!!!!!


There's plenty of info here in archives anyway so enjoy , stay constant and just don't be surprised when competition becomes harder to find .


Blooming lotus

[Fitdoc]

Not all bodybuilders or strength athletes can or should be lumped in one group. I am a competitve bodybuilder who also cross-trains in shaolin gong fu. My "muscle mass" has not been a problem for me performing any martial technique. In fact, my strength has been nothing but a asset. Has my speed been slowed due to "larger" muscles? NO. Has my flexibility been slowed do to bodybuilding? Only when trying to perform front splits.

I personally know two other competitive bodybuilders who are pretty good martial artists. One is a physician collegue and the other is Ron Harris (www.ronharrismuscle.com- when it's working, LOL). Also pro bodybuilders Ken "Flex" Wheeler (http://www.teamflexwheeler.com/) and Ernie Taylor (http://www.bodybuilders.com/ernie.htm) are both competitive martial artists.

I suggest not avoiding heavy weight training for fear you'll somehow limit your martial ability. Just make sure you find someone who's knowledgeable and can instruct you on the proper way to lift weights. Also, dont neglect the nutrition aspect of your training (both martial and weight lifting).

[zachsan]

muscle mass is obviously an asset in a fight, anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something, or monologuing in a bad kung fu movie. this is why we have weight divisions in boxing and MMA tournaments - to keep it fair.

size is just another advantage, just as a weapon is an advantage, or MA training. the idea is that you want as many advantages as possible when you're in trouble. anything can happen, but you want to tip the scales in your favor.

[daodejing]

Amen. As for the original post, if you can't canoe/kayak/paddle in water, try the rowing machine at your gym. Also, daily hatha yoga can be excellent for building lean muscle.

[Maestro]

"Not all bodybuilders or strength athletes can or should be lumped in one group. I am a competitve bodybuilder who also cross-trains in shaolin gong fu. My "muscle mass" has not been a problem for me performing any martial technique. In fact, my strength has been nothing but a asset. Has my speed been slowed due to "larger" muscles? NO. Has my flexibility been slowed do to bodybuilding? Only when trying to perform front splits."

i agree that weight training isnt neccesarily detrimental, but if u want more power from your shaolin gung fu you cant beat qi gong over weight training. weight training builds mainly what physicians would call voluntary muscle. the foundation of shaolin gung fu and all CMA is based on the strength of the tendons and ligaments.

also, its a fact that the bigger your biceps are the slower your strikes are, and body building or lifting mainly builds slow twitch muscle fibers designed for endurance and contraction to produce power. in shaolin, contraction of your primary muscles groups is detrimental to power generation.

imho bodybuilding is good but the strength you build on only gets weaker with age, wheresas the strength emphasised in shaolin lasts your whole life, and only gets stronger with age. bodybuilding has its place for sure but the fact of the matter is if your a martial artists and your goal is to be a more proficient fighter, there are better ways to spend your energy

[flow]

Ok first of all i want to thank you all very much for sharing your ideas and training concepts with me,i hear many more than interesting things,and not only in this post.Damn i love internet now(one year ago i was against it lol).

I am still convinced that some body builders can't fight so well in our kicking sports so well.In wrestling or boxing,well i won't say anything even if in thoses sports i prefer to see skinny men,they're faster and i like it.Ok it's maybe because my weight is 64(BL Tianshi:just one more kg to loose and i will be Bruce Lee!Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!)for 1.80m(noooooooooooo!).No jokes,for me Lee had the best body you can dream of for the arts of fighting...Yes!I want to train like him,somebody knows how?

If i wanted to be bigger i could but i don't eat much proteins and i don't lift heavy-but still i can be muscled no?I have nothing against body builders but it's not my stuff(i don't go to gyms others than my club and i like it to be natural).

But these are personal opininons.Of course i won't challenge someone who weights 30 kg more than me.But i noticed than even seen by categories it's often the most sharp and dry who has the best speed and heart who wins.Of course not 100/100.

I would like to ask to Maestro what are these Indu push ups?Never heard of it...Very interseted as push ups are a part of my routine.But qi,well i don't really know about it,my girlfriend who is Chinese heard of it but doesn't know how to train it,in fact she doesn't give a ****,lol i'm more chinese than her sometimes!...I did some Chan' meditation one year ago but it didn't last and long,and i didn't have enought time for it,really.After training i have to take care of a lot of things.Daodejing,what is Hata yoga?Is it something very particular?I don't know yoga at all.


Juszczec,thank you to think i'm stupid but when i'm thirsty i simply drink,i wont let myself die!Nah kidding.Clubbells looks very intersting to me,but once again i'm not actually ready for spending on it for personnal reasons(hem hem).Maybe later.Oh,Holyfield and Tyson are very nice people,i wont peace them off..but still i don't like to see them fight,they are bulls(and one of them eats ears...behhhhh!).


I'm sure than in this gang there are still many resources and tips for strengtening and muscle training,i beg you all to go on i think it's important to search on it and for everyone to find the most perfect routine for himself.

Anyways i have to stop here,


Cheers my friends,bye