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What martial art is most practical in a fight?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Maestro View Post
    I have a feeling this old story isn't very old since the Chinese didn't know shit about cancer until recently.

    Also internal and external are arbitrary terms and have no bearing as far as real practice is concerned.
    People have had visible tumors for a long time. You have two thousand year old chinese medicine texts talking about tumours.

    Cancer isn't a new thing in China. Don't get hung up on the wording, it's a translation. The original character was probably something along the lines of constrained mass.

    Don't get hung up on literality either, it's clearly a parable implying one should not excessively focus on either extreme.
    Last edited by daodejing; 12-11-2012, 07:19 PM.
    Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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    • #47
      I am not trying to poke the bear but: "training repeatedly and adding towards work over time aka gong fu." doesn't corroberate the "not excessively focus on either extreme."

      "Training repeatedly" seems like the definition of "extreme." Also, I think it's pretty clear cancer has not been cured

      I liked the "all three [competition, sex and parenthood] things can also strengthen one's spirit if cultivated properly" part of the message.

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      • #48
        Dao, I know what you do, but IMO chinese medicine is bullshit

        as for the terms its like i said, they are arbitrary and quite modern, anything in excess is bad but that doesn't really apply in the context of that quote, not at all.
        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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        • #49
          Originally posted by J-schum View Post
          I am not trying to poke the bear but: "training repeatedly and adding towards work over time aka gong fu." doesn't corroberate the "not excessively focus on either extreme."

          "Training repeatedly" seems like the definition of "extreme." Also, I think it's pretty clear cancer has not been cured

          I liked the "all three [competition, sex and parenthood] things can also strengthen one's spirit if cultivated properly" part of the message.
          The simplified charictures for gong and fu literally mean hard work over time.

          Training repeatedly means training repeatedly. I would expect any student to do poorly at any martial art without continued practice.

          External vs internal for the purposes of this discussion are used in a very simplistic manner ie muay thai is generally considered a hard external style while taijiquan is generally considered a soft internal style.

          Obviously these are all relative terms. BJJ is technically a soft martial art but is sometimes viewed as being an external or hard art even though it is quite yin compared to wrestling.

          My point above all is that no martial art is practical for fighting without actually practicing fighting.
          People seem to get warped by post cultural revolution lies into thinking xingyi and taiji practitioners never fought or sparred. That's a fairly modern adaptation coming from the comrades should not fight comrades philosophy. Xingyi was once used to train military units and Master Yang of taiji fame got in all kinds of fights, thus he had practice actually fighting people.

          Obviously if one is training for purely religious purposes the goals are different but the question that was originally asked was about practical fighting. For practical fighting you generally see best or at least quickest results with things like submission grappling, boxing, muay thai, etc. This is primarily do to a larger investment in time training against intelligently defending opponents.
          Last edited by daodejing; 12-12-2012, 08:04 AM.
          Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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          • #50
            If the question is "what martial art is most practical in a fight?"
            One answer: "For practical fighting you generally see best or at least quickest results with things like submission grappling, boxing, muay thai, etc. This is primarily do to a larger investment in time training against intelligently defending opponents." But,"if one is training for purely religious purposes the goals are different."
            OK, 1)what about a religious fight? I.e.: a battle for the soul, if you will. Or stated another way what martial art "can also strengthen one's spirit [best] if cultivated properly?"
            2) clarification does: "Quickest results" = best system? Because this would contradict "work over time aka gong fu" implying gong fu is not best.

            To maestro: "anything in excess is bad but that doesn't really apply in the context of that quote, not at all." It is possible I misunderstood the quote, but, couldn't excess "physical" training if cultivated properly (i.e. mindfull of injury) lead to the best result?

            I think everyone (or at least a large consensus) seems to agree that physical contact and practice in fighting is needed to have practical fighting results. As much as I would like to, I can't argue with that either. Like Vin diesel in knockaround guys LOL:
            500 fights, that's the number I figured when I was a kid. 500 street fights and you could consider yourself a legitimate tough guy. You need them for experience. To develop leather skin. So I got started. Of course along the way you stop thinking about being tough and all that. It stops being the point. You get past the silliness of it all. But then, after, you realize that's what you are.
            So bad, I love it.

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            • #51
              well J it depends buddy, I've been through a lot of different styles, and a lot of different conditioning and strength training programs. I can tell you that personally, training very hard and also keeping up a high level of strength is very difficult, you have to eat and eat and eat and eat your ass off, or maybe just me i dunno, but u gotta eat a lot...and when i say a lot i mean a lot. this is why man Pro's only do strength training in prep for fights. but if your a regular joe its different, u gotta be strong and fit so i would stick with what i said earlier, and anyone that says oh well u could do qi gong or something instead of BJJ and still be progressing, well real qi gong is HARD work and you still burn calories, you still use muscle and you still need to compensate, there is no getting around it

              also training in combat for sport or the real world, shit just happens man, bones break, sprains, dislocations, all lead to down time in the end, its just not the best idea to go to much at anything, "nothing in excess" THAT is and old saying for you, no chinese bullshit....probably roman bullshit lol
              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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              • #52
                I see what your saying: 110% is unsustainable. So it is not the best to be excessive. No way around it.

                I was thinking greek, socrates, as the oldest reference I could think of (moderation in all things).

                So to add to the earlier discussion best should include: sustainable (physically).

                And yes, I pop like 3,500 calories a day while training. Definately tough to keep up with, especially properly. As much as I like to think my 2,000 calories lunches at Mc Donalds are delicious: they are probably not the proper way to go about getting the calories.
                Last edited by J-schum; 12-12-2012, 09:28 PM. Reason: clarification

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                • #53
                  mickey d's is full of trans fats which are very strong lipids, they don't break down well at all and generally just clog up your arteries, so no...that wouldn't be good.
                  "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                  • #54
                    2000 calories a day at Mickey D's?

                    Train all you want man. And enjoy it. You won't live very long, but your corpse will look good for the coroner.

                    (Do you have any idea what that shit does to you?)
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

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                    • #55
                      elaborate doc i love your medical rants, they make me feel very insignificant, gotta love that
                      "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                      • #56
                        Maestro, Chinese medicine is not bullshit; it's just not as "accurate" as western medicine. Some of the agents that they use do have pharmacological effects, it's just that the agents are not titrated or directed appropriately.

                        Rants later. I have to deal with the family.
                        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                        (more comments in my User Profile)
                        russbo.com


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                        • #57
                          so pharmacological effects that arent titrated or directed appropriately

                          boy i cant wait to get checked out at the TCM clinic

                          ill make sure to stock up on some tiger penis and frogs leg just in case i come down with anything serious
                          "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                          • #58
                            Tiger penis will do you some good.

                            As long as it's still not attached to the tiger.
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


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                            • #59
                              It's maybe once every three months. I saw the documentary, but, I still would love to hear about the horrible effects of a 2,000 calorie lunch:
                              Quarter pounder with cheese
                              Large fry
                              20 piece chicken nugget
                              Large vanilla milk shake
                              Super size me!!! I think thats 2,000 calories. As far as I know, no tiger junk at McD's. Although I am 100% certain that McD's (McDeath?) is the complete opposite of practical in a fight.

                              Also, just realized I might have taken you off topic. So, Daodejing: do you think that a "best" practical fighting method has to have the ability to be taught quickly?
                              Last edited by J-schum; 12-14-2012, 05:18 PM. Reason: Addition

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by doc View Post
                                Maestro, Chinese medicine is not bullshit; it's just not as "accurate" as western medicine. Some of the agents that they use do have pharmacological effects, it's just that the agents are not titrated or directed appropriately.

                                Rants later. I have to deal with the family.

                                I think folks who bash it excessively are often forgetting or entirely ignorant of the fact that most people practicing TCM in Chinese hospitals were MD's first and then later specialized in TCM.

                                Also the curriculum in California while not requiring s Medical Doctorate includes a massive amount of time spent focusing on western medical pathophysiology and diagnosis.

                                I went through school with an MD (internist by specialty) who remarked that the pathophysiology curriculum was identical to what she had been taught in 4 year medical school but that we spent far more time on herbs than they ever spent on pharmacology.

                                My practice primarily focuses on herbs, nutrition, exercise, and medical massage.

                                If you think those are all bullshit you're only hurting yourself.

                                Modern research is demonstrating a large swath of the traditional pharmacopeia to be quite pharmacologically active.

                                Just look up ginseng on pubmed.gov and you'll see some interesting things.

                                It shouldn't be hard to accept, where would western medicine be without opium poppy from central asia?

                                As for Doc's accuracy issue, it's a paradigm difference. Western pharmacology prefers to isolate single compounds and use them in fairly high doses, Chinese Medicine likes to use an ecosystem of interacting compounds at lower effective doses (though doses will generally be higher in mass due to more inactive material and less concentrated active ingredients) where some agents are used to modify and manipulate the effects of others.

                                To be frank there are times when either is superior.
                                Last edited by daodejing; 12-15-2012, 03:59 PM.
                                Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.

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