Shaolin disciple as a career...

[doc]

Dear doc,

Hi. First off I don't mean to waste your time. I know you probably get this a lot but I will still ask. I am sixteen years old and want to go to China for an extended period of time (5+ years). The only thing is that I only have $4000 a year to spend on training, a place to stay, food to eat and other necessities. I am interested in going to Shi De Cheng Wushu Center and was asking if you could try to negotiate this price for me since you know him. If you could do this it would be much appreciated but I understand if you can not. Either way thank you for you time and please email me back. I hope you can for it would put me one step closer to achieving my life goal of becoming a disciple. I don't want to become a disciple for the title of being a Shaolin Disciple or for the fame. I want to become a disciple to help myself evolve to my full potential and most of all to help cherish and honor a tradition that was handed down to me. Once again I appreciate your time for even reading this email and am sorry if I wasted you time.
Amitabha,

xxx xxxx


I do get this a lot, lol. No problem.

I suggest that you do one thing first. IN the web site, under Shaolin Topics, is a thread about training in Shaolin versus going to college. Read it.

Second, with respect to training, Shi De Cheng is here with me in Las Vegas. Should be here for a good part of the year. There are other schools in china that you can go to, but, traveling to china is not easy. There's lots of information in the forum and the web site; I suggest that before you make any plans, that you start reading.

I can help get you to China, after you read up on all of this.

Take care,

doc


Doc,

It is me xxxxx xxxxx again. Thank you for responding to my email. I have read what you suggested and have read even more of your site and others than I had before. I live in xxxxx and am graduating from xxxxxxt in May of 2004(if everything goes right). I realize that traveling to China is not easy. I also realize that it is usually hard to make a good living off of martial arts. The fact that I won’t have a big house or lots of money is not why I like it. Like many others, I too have this unexplainable passion for the martial arts and want to learn as much as possible even if it means having a very low lifestyle. I have done research on the types of visas and how to obtain them. I have also read on your site about the traveling and how involved it is. I was wondering how long Shi De Cheng was going to be here. If he is going to be here past June of 2004, I would like to go to attend at a different school I found out about on your sight, Shi Yan Zheng’s school. I have viewed the video of it and read the forum on it. I have no concrete plans yet but would like to go to China in July.Once again thank you for your time. Amitabha.

xxxx


xxxxx,.

I understand your desire. Trust me on this. But, there is more to life than learning gong fu. I strongly suggest that you spend a few months in China, learn what you can, then go to college.

You have the rest of your life to learn gong fu. You don't have the rest of your life to develop an education and a career.

doc

[duhkha]

shaolin at 16

I can relate to how this feels - i'm 16 and have had my head filled with dreams of training full time in china, so i thought i might as well through some ideas around that might be of interest.

First of all, i'm lucky enough to be able to train at shaolin temple uk and have done for a couple of years now so i have some idea of what training involves. i've also done Yanzi's 7 day residential workshop so i've got some idea of what it's like to train for 6 or 7 hours a day. personally, i don't think i'd have found it much fun doing that for any longer without a break. it's mentally and physically draining training that much and i can only guess how much more so it would be in a foreign country with foreign food. don't get me wrong, i loved the training and i'll do it again but i know my limits. i'm in fairly good shape from the training i've done but 16 is still really just a kid. it's sometimes hard to see that but in a few years your body will be in such a better condition to deal with such intensive training and consequently you'll benefit much more from it. i know the chinese kids start at like 6 or something but the culture is completely different there. i know that my 16 years in a western culture is no preparation for 5 years of **** hard training in china.

also, 5 years is a long, long time regardless of what you are doing. remember when you were 11? it's a long time ago and i'm sure if you've changed nearly as much as i have over those 5 years you'll be a very different person now than you were then. chances are you'll be that different again in another 5 years. take docs advice and spend a few months in china and then make up your mind. i suspect that you'll still feel the same but at least you've got the safety net.

with regard to school v college, i'm at college and i hate it. but i know that i can't rely on being able to do shaolin gong fu for the rest of my life however much i'd like to. i'm lucky because i can get the best of both worlds to some extent - college in the day, training evening and weekends.

of course i might just be a spineless wuss who is too scared to quit college and move to shaolin (!) but i hope some of this makes sense. i can only talk from my own very limited personal expereince. if you do decide to go to china in the summer, best of luck, let us know how it goes and maybe i'll be convinced to do the same....
sorry if i sound like a pessimistic old sod, i just want to further this discussion a bit because obviously i can relate a lot to what you are saying


incidentally...

I only have $4000 a year to spend on training

ONLY $4000 a year? christ, i have to save up to go out on a friday night! 16 year old shouldn't have that kind of money!!! (by that i mean if i don't then no other 16 year old should!)

[doc]

Not eveybody loved college. I can assure you, it wasn't my favorite time of life. But, it made me what I am today.

Which, I might remind you, is still being debated...

[duhkha]

will college make ME what you are today?

interesting idea though, being a disciple as a career. i've been taught by 5 different monks/disciples at STUK and you cannot help but be in awe of their skill and dedication, but i can't help wondering if by committing yourself to one thing from such a young age you miss out on so much other stuff. i suppose if you want to be the best then that's the only way but the advantage of living in a western society is that you have a lot of options available to you.... as long as you have the money

[doc]

The problem is, we in our western society, look upon these guys in awe.

But, after having to get to know them, you eventually realize that they miss out on many things in life. Their type of existance is not something to aspire to. It's better to try to partake of both worlds; theirs and ours.

[Maestro]

oppinionated

i agree and disagree with alot of what is being said here..theres some good topics being discussed here though

for one, lets look at the facts alright people? our super admin doc was a crazy doctor in nyc for so and so years bla bla bla, eventually he ends up in shaolin, trains with the monks, becomes a disciple..reaches a point in his life where he basically is at his peak intellectually and what does he do with all hiw knowledge and experience?

he opens up a kung fu school

well..i gotta say thats funny..quite ironic when doc tells this kid to go to college rather then dedicate himself to his art

regardless, i agree that whoever is serious about training should look at all options first before making any big leaps like this crazy kid is talking about

really i mean, you have to have your goals clearly laid out and you have to be realistic

alot of people get pissed off and say, god damnit i just want to train!! and not think..

but in the long run the thinking is going to save you alot of time..in some cases a whole lot

as for a career...again i disagree, money is money..of course we all need money, but how much money do you really "need", imho it all comes down to what you want..do you want more possesions and means and advantages and such? or do you want what best suits you as a person? questions like these are crucial ones
everyone should ask themselves atleast once

on the subject of the "worlds comparison" put forth by doc below is a little biased imho, doc personally enjoys "western society" which is to say..basically as long as you have money, you can get just about anything you want, and determining on the size of your backroll WHEN you want it..now compared to a shaolin monk perse, or even a buddhist monk, think of their perspective. what does a buddhist monk desire?

all it comes down to is desire, like ive said before the root of all evil is desire

anyway, i personally feel, becoming a monk of any sort, is the kind of thing i personally would take up in my latter years(if ever) because 1 i do enjoy aspects of our society, and 2 even though i would progress faster spiritualy in a temple, its not my all consuming goal to become a spiritual master, infact my goals are varied..

anyway i personally dunno what the hell im doing, ive got no direction..there is no way in hell im going to college and i really have no interests that i can think of that i would want to pursue as a career..i cant think of anything

but thats just me..and im still training so..

more chi everyone

peace

[Asger]

Hey it's totally cool that you wanna go to shaolin. I want to do the same... just have to finish college first.
I love college, cause it's so nice to be among people of my own age and there's so much to do... The only thing that bugs me is the time it takes, because then i'll get "out of shape" etc etc. ... bah! not true!
There's plenty of time to practise if you have the selfdiscipline to do it when you come home from school totally exhausted.
And the physical condition is not of great importance btw. At any time you can get killed or die. In what can take a few seconds, all what you trained for will be gone.
Physical training of course increases your mental fitness and so forth, but you are not truly mentally fit if your mind is lost in a dream formed by desire for supernatural powers(mental as well as physical).
If you train and train, no matter how hard, you will not attain peace until you realize the purpose of the training and has liberated yourself from desire and selfish dreams.
Even desire for a state of serenity is desire and will surely lead to nothing but suffering.

Don't get me wrong, I am not in anyway conformed to these ideas! (though i'm trying). I am only just a year older than you are, and had exsactly the same wish, except that i wanted to go there for good.

Well, what can I say.. Don't make decisions you don't have to make.
And take Doc's advises whatever thay may be.

[doc]

on the subject of the "worlds comparison" put forth by doc below is a little biased imho, doc personally enjoys "western society" which is to say..basically as long as you have money, you can get just about anything you want, and determining on the size of your backroll WHEN you want it..now compared to a shaolin monk perse, or even a buddhist monk, think of their perspective. what does a buddhist monk desire?


Interesting observation.

Yes, I like western things. And I also like to go to Shaolin on a regular basis, to live in the ****s, with few comforts, to escape western life. And all the pleasures it gives us. I find it to be a "soul cleansing experience". One which I enjoy. For a time.

What does a Shaolin temple monk want? Well, let's look at the ones who have left China and found themselves here. I don't see any of them in any rush to throw away their western life, and return to the wushu guan. Xingwei, despite the fact that he is ill now, has no desire at all to return to that life in Shaolin; Decheng has extended his stay here because he enjoys it so much.

These guys are people too. They enjoy the good things in life, once they're exposed to it. Not that it changes them much, they're ideals seem to be the same. But they do enjoy being here.

The problem is, as I see it, is that many of you guys think this whole Shaolin monk life is glamorous.

Trust me, it's not.

[cassius]

I think a lot of it is due to the way the monks' lifestyle is glamorised by films and the media.

[Maestro]

pyschic

well i saw that coming..

it wasnt exactly my intent to state "a shaolin monk" it just came out, i believe i said a "shaolin monk, or even a buddhist monk" or something along those lines

really, that is what i meant- a MONK regardless of ethnicity or spiritual tradition

see the point i was making about monks is that, to be a monk it basically means you are abstaining from the things you and I both love about society(not neccesarily western society..) not because the individual no longer gains pleasure from these things, but because they are hindrances to their spiritual cultivation..so surrounding yourself with trees or zen gardens or whatever, anything to take yourself away from the worldly desires and focus on whatever, that is the point of being a monk..its the reason why most people became monks(espcially in western society) in their latter years of life..but then you got people like fa hui..lol

now, like i say people are different, and cultures are different therefore, i really dont know how some orphans back in the day could just grow up AS MONKS, really that thought has baffeled me for a long time, i mean i understand the process its just strange to me that seemingly none of them rebel or run off outta the temple etc etc

but then again were talking about china here..a third world country, so REALLY if you look at it from their perspective, they get to be "shaolin monks" train gong fu and chan for "free" etc etc, you know there are people WAY less fortunate then that in china..way..way..way..way less fortunate

so really like i said before, it call comes down to the individual

if so and so wants to train gong fu, in china, at shaolin and do that for the rest of his life, then the best thing you can do is disuade him to focus his intentions on things other then that because he obviously hasnt thought this through..like i said your right, but regardless

what the shaolin monks do is their business, they arent the "grand ultimate" final word on chan, kung fu, or anything for that matter..what they do is their perogitive, what this kid does is his

amitabha

[J Tubridy]

I'll throw in my 2 cents regarding college. I hated the first year, dropped out, lived in
Boston for a while, then joined the Marine Corps Reserve ( All totaled I spent a year on
active duty and three in the reserve.) During my reserve time, I went back to college and finished.
My time away from school (in the Marines) certainly gave me an appreciation for what college
had to offer. If you do not prepare for a career when you are young, you may find yourself
stuck in a job when you're older. Why not look for a career which will compliment your interest
in the martial arts (i.e. Physical Therapist, Chiropractor, Etc.). If you can find somthing you love,
and ideally be your own boss, believe me it will pay pay huge dividends later in life. I can't tell you
the number of friends I have who are stuck in jobs they hate. Completing college is cretainly no guarantee
of success, or of finding the "perfect" job (it doesn't exist). However, I firmly believe time spent in college
will stack the odds of future success in your favor. I hope my rambling helps. Good luck in whatever you do.

P.S. The Marines were a great experience and a nightmare. I'm not trying to encourage you
or discourage you in that direction. Talk about a love/hate relationship.

[daodejing]

Vince, I can't honestly disagree with any part of your post. Well put. It all depends on what you want to do.
Personally I had a blast in college, but more importantly than drinking and screwing around I figured out who I was. I realized myself, and my path. So then I set off on it. And I couldn't be happier now that I did. I love my school, I love my fellow students, I love the fact that it's saturday yet I spent six hours in class today starting at nine am and in that class I was receiving and giving shiatsu massage for four out of those six hours.

It does all depend on the individual. It's a matter of figuring out where you belong, deciphering your path. And then following that path. And honestly, you're already on the path today. You may be at a rocky section where the way is unclear but you're on the path nonetheless. The way of heaven is simply to flow along in harmony with that path, even when it is rocky, dangerous, and uncertain.

[cassius]

Doc, what is making the monks stay? Is there something you could put your finger on when you talk about 'western culture'?

[doc]

Nothing in particular. Let's just say that life in the west is far more comfortable than a good deal of the living arrangements found in the east.

Decheng and Xingwei are having a blast here.

[arhat]

Asger- I desire to possess supernatural powers.

J tubby- I have the perfect job. I honestly do.

Personally, I love seeing the monks out of the confines of the physical temple. I say physical because to the ones I have met so far their mental temple is the one that really matters.

One thing that caused me to balk when I was looking into Catholic monasticism was that here we have all these contemplative monastics, and let's be honest, that is where the fruit of Catholicism is being nourished- they are on a level of understanding in regards to their faith that the common laiety just has no concept of- but what good is it to have these guys all ensconced in these monasteries when the people who could benefit most from their spiritual knowledge are no where near them.

I am fascinated by what is now being called Engaged Monasticism- the concept that you do not need to recluse yourself, that you can be a monk in the world, as it were. It's one of the things that brought me to where I am now.