full-immersion shaolin and wing chun instruction

[doc]

As for being small peeps, hey, its the small peeps that you have to worry about. Us big guys can fall down pretty hard sometimes. Just ask the asshole that tried to break into my house two months ago. I fell down pretty damn hard. Really, really hard.

Right on top of the little ****er. Grabbed him by the throat, and threw him onto the ground. Bastard didn't have a chance with my headlock. LOL. Oh, what a story. Gonna have to write about that one, one day. If I can ever find the time.

As far as the wooden dummy goes, there are many movements in Shaolin, as there are in other martial arts, that can be practiced on the wooden dummy. It's not just for wing tsun, in my opinion.

[Maestro]

davey davey davey...

<<<<< has no interest in wing chun or daveys Yip Man org.... o.O =)

and anything i know i learned from "masters" ..so far my knowledge hasnt done me wrong yet..only my lack of maybe

[Steve]

You should have seen the face of the guy that was in the backyard... Damn did he try to break into the wrong house. Still waiting for the TV special and 20/20 to do a documentary on that night. Enough of the 15 year old chick from Utah. Alright she's alive. Oh sorry...
Steve

[dave]

N. and S. Preying Mantis, and Dragon are all official Shaolin styles that were not only taught at the Shaolin temples, but were actually concieved there by particular Shaolin monks.

Actually i didnt say if they were "shaolin" styles or not, i simply said ummm... i dont think u would find ANY northern mantis, dragon (southern?), wing chun, southern mantis OR pak mei in ANY of the shaolin temples. None of those skills are "shaolin" as in the sense that they are in the temple. Which basically means that they are NOT found in any of the temples today. When you said u wanted to train 6-8 hours a day somewhere that included food and others and that you also like Pak Mei though it is not taught in Shaolin - that said to me that you wanted to go to Henan Shaolin or another temple or something. So sorry if i misunderstood but my point stands correct.

Also there are many types of Dragon - i am specifically talking about the ones you mentioned: those taught in the Songshan temple and the differences between that and Hung Gar dragon (5 animals), Choy Li Fut and Lung Ying Kuen (southern dragon).

i think we are arguing semantics here really.

Lung ying was created by the abbot Dai Yuk in Guangdong, in Wah So Toi temple. This was after he learned his Temples skill and also had a meeting with Ng Mui to learn her skill. The current style stems from Lam Yun Kwai who was not a monk at the temple but just a student... So over the last century it has just become open and more public.

Southern Mantis has a few different branches - Chu Gar and Jook Lum being 2 of the main ones. For sure they passed thru Temples at some stage, as the Hakka people were fleeing form the North down to the South and took refuge there... also Jook Lum is the name of a Temple in Kwangsi i think. Again, for sure there was Shaolin influence, but again, i was speaking in reference to your point above. Jook Lum and especially Chu Gar are considered "Hakka" because they have been passed thru these peoples for many generations, and only recently opened up outside. Chow Gar which was created by Ip Shui is one skill that comes from Chu Gar (and is actually the cantonese for chu gar).

Pak Mei is interesting because the founder, Cheung Lai Chuen was also a master of both Lung Ying and Li Gar. He was already known for his fighting skill before he crossed hands with a student of a monk. He then learned the skill at a Temple and it has become what we know as Pak Mei today. infact there is an interesting picture of cheung lai chuen wearing buddhist robes Again, this is considered "Hakka" because its predominately practised and passed down by those peoples - recently opened up. Its known that Pak Mei only has 5 forms and the rest of the skills taught are synthesised from Lung Ying and Li Gar to fit the Pak Mei pardigram. Many different people - hakka chinese, cantonese and also western have learned and are spreading this skill and its good news as its very good. But again, you wont find it in Shaolin.

There are many instances where Lung ying and pak mei have been taught together, as dont forget cheung lai chuen was also a master of dragon. especially look to his early students in guangdong because they studied more of dragon and li gar before he learned pak mei. his hong kong students on the other hand have differences.

As far as "how many people today actually use kung fu?," not very many people, to answer your question, but only because not many westerners know any kung fu (as opposed to tkd, karate, muey thai, etc.), not because it is an ineffective or outdated form of self defense!

How many people today use kung fu in a combatitive context? Maybe some law enforcement or special forces but not generally that many. if your kung fu doesnt have knife defence, pistol techniques, weapon retention and many other things then its not the most practical method of self defence. Fighting is not the whole reason for kung fu - if so we would also study such things as pre-fight psychology, de-escalating techniqes, first aid... fear control and many other things.

Triad gang members, by the way, actually are known for almost exclusively using your style, Wing Chun. In fact, before Bruce Lee made it world famous, the Triads were responsible for making it infamous in Hong Kong.

Then explain why one of the high ranking leaders of a triad group is a known pak mei master Explain why some pak mei students of cheung lai chuen used to go around different MA schools in HK and close them down? (even some wing chun). I agree both pak mei and wing chun are good for close fighting if trained properly - both use a similar range and sensitivity, though the power generation is different. pak mei is more aggressive.

The experts on martial arts and especially kung fu all agree that not all systems are equal.

why do i say this? Because people are still searching for the "holy grail". of course they say this! They have to get students and getmoney for their rice bowl!

No two styles are going to be exactly equal in terms of effectiveness, practicality, speed, power, or any other aspect.

The twin analogy is good but pointless... when it comes down to it its just you and your own knoweledge, how much YOU train and understand how to apply your skill, how much YOU understand. if im in a violent encounter do you really think im worried about if im in a "superior" systeM? Nope. im trying not to get my ass kicked or killed. in that instance you onl have what you have - no more - no less so its a moot point.

Even if there IS a "superior" style, what makes you think the teacher can impart the skill to you? What makes you think the teacher understands it enough to teach properly? He may be a money-grabbing, aggressive and rough person who cant keep students. Just think of Taijiquan... Yang Shou Hou was the brother of Yang Cheng Fu (who is known as the most prominent yang family member in history). His brother Shou Hou was a harsh man who used to really push his students hard and hurt them during training, so he didnt have many students. Its known his fighting skill was better hance all the "old yang" forms that crop up nowadays. yet his skill hasnt been passed on so well.

This is why i say the teacher and student are more important. I used my example of aikido to show that it depends on the teacher and student. Most people who trian aikido generallyt cant do sh|t against a striking combination or multiple attackers. people class aikido as a "hippy" kind of MA not useful at all. yet if you train hard you can learn to do these - it depends on understanding and a good teacher!

You are making broad claims basing it only on personal experience, but you can't do that because kung fu out dates your experience by 1500 years not to mention all the other masters and students that have learned things that you haven't yet.

i agree with you. But like i said - if there is no good teacher, and it doesnt get passed on properly, then the skill dies - no matter if "superior" or not. Look at the difference between the shotokan practised by Funakoshi and the shotokan done in competitions today. How many people train realistic applications frm forms against a resisting opponent? How many of these "applicatins" include not only strikes, but locks, grabbing, throws, takedowns and combinations thereof? I was lucky to have a good sensei that DID teach me that way, but most schools i have seen dont - instead use the "kumite" element for "fighting". it doesnt work when someone has grabbed you, headbutts you, knees you and takes you down to the ground. This is where traditional training comes in, but it takes time to get good. All the "eye-gouging" and "vital point" strikes in the world wont help you if you get taken down by a BJJ guy or Wrestler and cant apply them. [or if doc falls on you and grabs you by the throat ]

i didnt take any offense at your statment - its a discussion forum and thats what were doing
good luck!

dave

[doc]

This query has gotten an incredible amount of response to this date. I'm not sure what I can add. But, let's just take Michael's request, bit by bit, and try to get him some more answers.

Training in gong fu six to eight hours a day, every day, for a year, is completely unrealistic. Training typically only lasts four hours a day; though sometimes, I'll get two or more different monks, and will train for six or more hours, all depending upon how I feel, and how badly I can tolerate the sometimes inevitable diarrheal illness. I might start my day with an eight to ten mile hike in the morning, followed by a 9 AM workout for two to two and a half hours. A second workout in the afternoon, and possibly a third in the evening. How you want to add those hours up is up to you; it's a lot, it's not for everybody, and it's not something that you can do day in and day out. The most I've ever done that for nonstop was for about 21 days. Generally, workouts will go for about six days, with one day off for rest. It's the Shaolin way. Also, typical Shaolin workouts start about 5 AM, with a morning run, followed by breakfast, a two hour morning workout, lunch, a two hour afternoon workout, dinner, and sometimes a small hour or so practice time or workout in the evening, all depending upon the time of season. The kids can do it, but, they're kids, and they certainly don't know any better.

Now, a year is a long time. And I've said this before in many many places in the site. Going to Shaolin with the idea that you're going to stay a year, a few months, five years, the rest of your life, is just irrational. I've seen too many people go with these expectations, and leave after a few weeks, and sometimes, a few days. It's not an easy place to live. Period. The language barriers, the food differences, the sanitation differences, the loneliness of not knowing anyone, the dreariness of constantly doing the same thing day in and day out, the abhorrent weather, the cultural differences, all make living in Shaolin, difficult. Which is why I suggest to anyone desiring to go there to train, to first check it out, preferably on a tour with experienced Shaolin type people. Besides, in China, guanxi rules. If you know people, they take care of you. If they don't know you, and you're not careful, you'll be taken advantage of. These people are budding capitalists, and they haven't yet learned the lesson that repeat customers are the key to successful business. It's a live and survive today world for them, and that includes getting from you whatever they can, and the hell if you ever come back (you probably won't). It's not the easiest place to go to and live, "cold".

As for going anywhere in the world, Shaolin is the place. Yes, there are monks scattered here and there, with varying qualities, and differences in approaches, but, to get the true approach, and to really have an experience, going to Shaolin is the way. Now, there are god knows how many schools out there that purport to teach Shaolin, and there are more "Shaolin grandmasters" than there are pimples on my ass. I'm not going to waste your time or mine, even discussing them. As for price in Shaolin, it depends upon who you know, where you stay, who you train with. There is a lot of variety with respect to this, and I've given up keeping up with all the changes on the site. It's just too massive, and too variable. Besides, once you get to know some of the players there, you can make varying and better arrangements. Also, if you've got someone known to them working on your behalf, you can get better arrangements. Do it alone, and you can get screwed. Remember, the Chinese are budding capitalists....

Forget this "north" and "south" praying mantis, Wing Chun, Pak Mei, etc, etc. You're referrring to southern gong fu styles, that granted, have some sort of root in Shaolin Henan, but are just not taught there. Shaolin's praying mantis form is called Tong Long Chuan, another is Chi Xing Tong Long Chuan. There are no north and south forms, no wing chun, no pak mei. In fact, if you mention some of these things to the monks, they'll just kind of look at you funny. To them, the only martial arts are Shaolin gong fu; the rest, though respectable, is just outside of their world. Unfortunately, being a westerner means that you've been exposed to martial arts that originally came to this country in the fifties and sixties. All predominantly southern styles, all out of Hong Kong, all demonstrated in Hong Kong movies that drifted over to the US, all taught by Hong Kong and southern style masters, who were able to leave British held Hong Kong for the US. Remember, China in the fifities, sixties, and seventies, was a bit of a mess. Gong fu masters were not coming to the US in droves to teach us gong fu. You're just starting to see the migration now.

Your understanding of Wing Chun is different than mine. I wouldn't think, from my experience with Wing Chun, that it would be a powerful fighting system. To me, the stances are far too weak and unstable, the punches are very limited and weak, and the weapon training is minimal. The Okinawan arts, and the Japanese arts, in my opinion, are far more devastating fighting skills. Shaolin is an awesome fighting method, but you really have to be good at it, and have a good understanding of it. Wing Chun is interesting, but, I sense that you've been watching too many Bruce Lee movies. (Bruce did a little Wing Chun; again, what he ended up with in his movies, was not Wing Chun...)

Your identifying some systems as "high systems" kind of befuddles me. How you decide which system is a "high system", and, what your definition of a "high system" is, is kind of beyond me. Your interpretation of these styles, what they mean, and how they compare, I'm sorry to say, is misled. There are many that might say, including myself, that training with a solid master of Okinawan Seidokan will make you a much better and stronger fighter than learning Wing Chun. Praying mantis is a beautiful style of gong fu, and it's one of my favorite, but, then again, to be an effective fighter with it, you really have to be good. And, have a full understanding of how to use it. Again, some of the Japanese and Okinawan arts might make you a stronger, more superior fighter, sooner.

As for having no interest in learning "wushu", I can understand that, as I try to avoid the modern competitive gong fu. But, face the facts; wushu is derived from the traditional arts. There are many, many similarities. One is distinctly tied to the other. Learning wushu, and being good at it, will make you a good fighter. Don't belittle it.

"I am only interested in real, combat tested, traditional kung fu training, and traditional kung fu sparring intended for use in real life fights should one be so unlucky as to be forced into having to defend oneself or others." Interesting. Don't belittle "Shaolin kickboxing". Sanda, which I've started training in, is also derived from the traditional Shaolin arts. There are many components of sanda that are taken directly from some of the traditional gong fu forms. Granted, it's not as beautiful to watch as some of the traditional Shaolin forms, but, as a fighting technique, it's damn good, if not better in some ways. And, it is, combat tested, traditional gong fu sparring, intended for use in real life fights. Yes, it's similar to Muay Thai, but, with quite a few differences. There are more "moves" in Sanda. Those that become competent in sanda are very difficult fighters to beat. Don't knock it.

You've got quite a few misunderstandings to work through. Obviously, you've been reading far too much nonsense on the internet, including too much shit from this site. And, your biggest misunderstanding is your impression that I'm "the most knowledgable and impartial information source on the subject". Hell, I've got a lot to learn about all of this. I'm far from an expert on any of this, lol.

My suggestion? Train with some of the "high systems" that you talk about. Take some Wing Chun. And then take a short trip to Shaolin. Train for a while with the monks. See what is taught there. Get a feel for the place. Get a feel for what Shaolin gong fu really is. Stop reading all the nonsense on the web, and evaluate the situation yourself. Make your own opinion. Always question, always question. How many times do I have to tell you guys this? And then research. Research. Get the information yourself, first hand. Experience things that you're interested in. Formulate your own opinions, don't always believe what other's tell you.

Then, you'll most likely find, that you'll want to spend more time in Shaolin. Or, with a good monk somewhere. Not a year at a time, but, a week, a month, here and there. Remember, gong fu training is like ****ing. It's not something that you do for one solid year, and then quit. It's a lifetime endeavor, requiring lots of practice, lots of training periods, lots of partners, and one hell of a teacher. You don't have to do it all at once.

Breaking little Chinese hearts in Beijing,
doc

[Maestro]

lol

hahahahahahahahahaha

"Remember, gong fu training is like ****ing. It's not something that you do for one solid year, and then quit. It's a lifetime endeavor, requiring lots of practice, lots of training periods, lots of partners, and one hell of a teacher. You don't have to do it all at once."

thats pretty damn funny

i think you guys are missing the point a little..i percieve our friend michael here wants to take a year off from work and just train..he doesnt want to here oh this cant be this or that cant be that..i think he just wants to find a good teacher of gong fu, that suits his personality and work his hardest..maybe his goals are a little unrealistic but rather then telling him that(like we have ohh..a dozen times by now..) i think we should just give him our best reccomendations(like doc did)

like i said..i think from what michael has said, that he should train with daves org..and then dave comes along and tells him a whole bunch of nonesense about kung fu heresay and general bs..i think we should just focus on getting this guy training asap..daves orgs addy is in his profile and they teach internationally wing chun, chen taiji and wild goose chi kung

doc reccomends japanese ma for more effective fighting prowess(which is Not what michael is looking for) or finding a good monk(sounds a little wierd doesnt that? a good monk? whats that like saying a good piece of ass?) and training periodically..i really that sounds like its logical because im sure whatever the monks teach michael for like a couple weeks to a month would be more then enough for him to go home and practice in a more suitable environment

now since michael whats to train purely for a year and do basically nothing else, but continue to train in a style that he loves for the rest of his life so he can be powerful(through lifelong training) i reccomend he looks around for a school and just trains with em..once he finds one then he should stick with em..i guess its as simple as that..my first reccomendation is daves org..second would be shaolin(if hes really into shaolin..if not i dunno i think you have to have alot of patience dealing with those guys..you never know what they are gonna teach ya if your not careful) and my third reccomendation would be shaolin wahnam because they are so crazy ..you go train with them for a month and you can blow up the moon and astrally project yourself further then the explorer

oOoOoOoOoOooooOOOooOOOOoOO

[dave]

contrary to what maestro says - yes we have a few people international - but we are only a small group... so it depends where you are.

The main thing is it depends what you want to do. im sure u will be able to find a sifu as long as youre not looking for the "holy grail".

good luck
dave

ps. in 20 years you may end up breaking little chinese hearts in beijing like Doc is now

[dave]

[doc]

Twenty years?????

Not quite sure how I should take THAT!

LOL,
doc

[Maestro]

first post..

first post to be edited out..hazah!

im honored..hahaha

[doc]

You should be honored. You're the master of the "edited posts". The only one whose writings we all only truly care about.

lol,
doc

[Michael]

Hey, guys. I was at home and away from my computer this weekend. Wow! I really wasn't expecting so many responses to my query. All of you guys have been extremely helpful.

It would seem I have a lot to learn about Chinese martial arts. Particularly in regards to what is or isn't Shaolin, and especially what is southern and what is northern.

Hats off to Maistro (who must have been reading my mind) for understanding my intentions so well -even though I probably wasn't communicating very clearly. He was exactly right when he said that he perceived that I wanted to take a year off from work and just train. -To find a good teacher in gong fu and train my hardest for a year. Nothing more, and definately nothing less. And again, I don't plan to ever stop training, it's just that I want to jumpstart my lifelong learning/training in the various gong fu styles instead of doing the intitial required learning over a period of several years.

As far as my understanding of Wing Chun and what I was referring to as "higher systems," well, here goes. . .

The whole higher systems/lower systems thing is something I learned when I was researching at the Shaolin Gung Fu Institute (www.shaolin.com). I also saw the concept described similarly at other web sites. Basically, it refers to the general martial approach of the style as a whole (philosophy + technique and application parameters). If the style makes almost no mention of chi, and/or most of the techniques rely on brute strength to counter a technique instead of more intelligently designed tactics, it's a low system. (blocks as opposed to the more efficient paries or "sticking" tactics; stopping an opponents movements as opposed to redirecting his movements and energy/flow; moves that expend large amounts of energy and wear you out more quickly as opposed to moves that cause the same effect without expending large amounts of energy). Efficient movements are more conservative with your energy yet have the same end result and magnitude of force. Also, efficient movements are those which have a flow from one move to the next (instead of a low system's lack of flow). You can see no flow in the fighting of a TKD, Muey Thai, Aikido, Jui-Jutsu, or Karate stylist -well, at least I never could. Not because the practitioner in question isn't talented, just because the style itself does not incorporate efficient 'flow' from one technique to the next as a fighting parameter or philosophy. Just to make sure I am understood correctly, I will make an analogy: TKD and other 'low systems' are like a musician warming up on his instrument 15 minutes before a performance. During the warmup, there is no flow. He is just playing random notes on his instrument. They are all great notes individually. Each note has good tone, correct pitch, correct volume, but each note is independent from all the other notes played in the warmup, hence, no 'flow.' Just because one note is immediately followed by another and another, doesn't mean that there is any sort of 'flow.' 'High systems' are like the musician during the performance. During the performance, each note is connected to the one before and the one that comes next, creating a pattern that makes sense to the ear. This is the essence of flow.
There are two major schools of Wing Chun teaching. The only difference between those schools is the footwork taught. Those that include the typical wide, low stances that makes it difficult to move quickly from one stance to another, and for some reason "just don't seem right" to people with analytical, practical, and mechanically-oriented minds. And the very small school of teaching that uses the "real" footwork. This supposedly, when combined with its fighting philosophy, is what makes Wing Chun so, so deadly. Apparently, in the early 1900's when Wing Chun was almost unheard of, the handfull of masters that taught it severely altered the footwork (to intentionally lessen the effectiveness of the style (to all but the most dedicated, honorable students that they would teach the real footwork to). Almost all Wing Chun schools I think, teach the abridged footwork with lots of horse-stances, deep front-stances, and the like. Now, I have done a lot of research on Wing Chun and not just on the internet. I put a lot of stock in what the History Channel had to say on the subject during the Bruce Lee biography (it wasn't just what Bruce said in the interview footage that I'm referring to, either; the History Channel narrated quite a bit). -It was on this show, Dave, that they said "long before Bruce Lee made Wing Chun famous in America, the Triads had made it infamous on the streets of Hong Kong." I didn't mean to infer that every single member of the Triads used solely Wing Chun; just that it was notorious for being the Triads' main fighting style, whether that was really true or not. I mean hey, I wasn't there, but I wouldn't think that the History Channel could be too far off the mark. That explains the stances, but as for the punches being weak, I don't know what to say except: that's not at all what I've gathered! I do love my Bruce Lee movies (the 6 that I know of), but I would be a fool to base my knowledge of anything martial arts related on what I observed him do in a movie. Besides, he had what he called his "movie-style." Not for real fighting, but a close semblance. In real life, he learned Wing Chun from Yip Man for 2 years, then was expelled from the school for frequently beating his class seniors which wasn't supposed to happen. Yip Man purportedly loved Bruce as he was an incredibly devoted learner, but since his senior students (which Bruce was not) handled the financial affairs of Yip's school because Yip badly squandered his money, and they also were responsible for giving him his allowance out of what the school made, they forced him to expell Bruce or suffer a smaller allowance. After the expulsion, Yip had his most senior student, Dan Innosanto, teach Bruce outside of his school. Yip taught the "real" stances to only one student: Dan Innosanto. Yip told Dan not teach them to anyone until after his death, but hinted at training Bruce in this way. Innosanto did teach Bruce the real stances (apparently, before that, Bruce often complained about the stances not making any sense). Bruce later developed his own style called Jun Fan Gong Fu, which was his combination of Wing Chun and Mantis. Much later he developed Jeet Kun Do as a means of summing up all the good in gong fu, leaving out all the bad, and correcting all the different styles' "imperfections"as he saw them. He is quoted as saying: "Jeet Kun Do is very similar to Wing Chun, but I believe it to be more practical; more truly alive than Wing Chun." As far as weapons training, I think that it was an after-thought in Wing Chun which was originally an "empty-hand only" style. Apparently Preying Mantis, Wing Chun, and any Shaolin gong fu system require you to be "really good" at it to be an effective fighter with it; as opposed to non-Chinese styles which can be learned to proficiency much more quickly, and learned thoroughly in a shorter period of time. But that's ok because I'm not going to stop after 1 year, nor am I boning up for a big fight or something, and I do plan to put in enough effort and study to become a really good figher with it, even though it will take much longer to be able to advance my skill enough to be able to effectively use its principles in a fight.

Doc, I would love some info on De Cheng's place and that hotel where you stay. You are probably my best hope at a good deal for training and living accomodations. They know you; they don't know me. But I don't graduate until December, so I've got several months before I'll be ready to go, but gosh am I excited!
Once again, thank you all so much for your input. I have learned a hell of a lot about the things I was looking to find more info on. "Only when we realize how truly little we know, can we truly be free to learn."

[dave]

WOW!

some serious errors in the text you quoted there man! No wonder you were talking about "high" and "low" systems, i understand more clearly why now That site is well *cough*

ok... heres another one of my long replies. i didnt really wanna get in to the history side of things again, but now i can see why you are making these assumptions:

Basically, it refers to the general martial approach of the style as a whole (philosophy + technique and application parameters). If the style makes almost no mention of chi, and/or most of the techniques rely on brute strength to counter a technique instead of more intelligently designed tactics, it's a low system.

if you train any system of Wing Chun - especially from Yip Man (also other lines like Yuen kay San and others), there is hardly ANY mention of Qi (chi). Mainly its just efficient use of structure and posture. Of ocurse, Qi is used - in everything (breathing, thinking... all use energy).

infact yip man - when he moved to hk from china actually took out many of the old references to "5 elements", "8-trigrams" and all these traditional things, instead making it more streamlined and "modern". Even the forms are a little different from back in china... he truly was a remarkable man.

Also, even skills like Hung Gar and Choy Li Fut (as im sure maybe Maestro can tell you) has many aspects and strategies, including a qigong side. infact they come from shaolin and those and others contain such skills such as "18 Lohan Hands", "8 pieces of silk" and "bone marrow washing" qigong.

You can see no flow in the fighting of a TKD, Muey Thai, Aikido, Jui-Jutsu, or Karate stylist -well, at least I never could. Not because the practitioner in question isn't talented, just because the style itself does not incorporate efficient 'flow' from one technique to the next as a fighting parameter or philosophy.

ive trained 3 of these styles, 1 for over 5 years and 1 for 13 before i found my Sifu. They have flow, you just have to be good - and i will contact doc to see if i can upload some good examples from videos i have maybe (depending if it infringes copyright).

There are two major schools of Wing Chun teaching. The only difference between those schools is the footwork taught. Those that include the typical wide, low stances that makes it difficult to move quickly from one stance to another, and for some reason "just don't seem right" to people with analytical, practical, and mechanically-oriented minds. And the very small school of teaching that uses the "real" footwork.

your article and references are mixed up... there are MANY different schools of wing chun. The "legend" states that yim wing chun learned from ng mui then passed it on to the red boat opera troupe. from there it passed down to wong wa boh and leung yee tai (who had the pole skill). They passed it to leung jan in foshan and he passed it down to his sons and chan wah shun. They in turn taught Yip man and so on from him. What your article seems to gloss over is ALL THE OTHER STUDENTS during those times. From the red boat - from those who learned as well as leung jan, from those who learned under chan wah shun (Ng Chun So for example)... there is a BIG gap.

As far as the story of "real" and "modified" footwork - youre thinking (and possibly mixed up) about William Cheung and his "story" of being taught something "secret" and different to ALL yip mans other students from hong kong AND back in China. There is no evidence of this happening apart from what William Cheung claims (not to start a lineage war - they have good skill). infact, when we look at other branches outside the Yip Man line we can clearly see the essence of wing chun.... look at the lines of Yuen Kay San, Ga Luo (Koo Lo), Pien San, Hung Suen, Cho Ga... As far as your stance comments... ALL of those have natural shorter stances, apart from Hung Suen and Cho Ga which are slightly bigger.

Almost all Wing Chun schools I think, teach the abridged footwork with lots of horse-stances, deep front-stances, and the like. Now, I have done a lot of research on Wing Chun and not just on the internet.

good for you - have you ever seen ANY wing chun clips, pics or online? I think you will see the standard stance is shoulders width apart, especially in Yip Mans version, and not too deep. Even Doc teased me about it The only place there are bigger stances and horse stance is when using the pole - and thats coz the pole is 8 or 9 feet long.

In real life, he learned Wing Chun from Yip Man for 2 years, then was expelled from the school for frequently beating his class seniors which wasn't supposed to happen. Yip Man purportedly loved Bruce as he was an incredibly devoted learner, but since his senior students (which Bruce was not) handled the financial affairs of Yip's school because Yip badly squandered his money, and they also were responsible for giving him his allowance out of what the school made, they forced him to expell Bruce or suffer a smaller allowance.

Its documented BL started when he was 13 and left for America in 1958 age 18. So thats 4 or 5 years not 2. Most of all you quoted is from the william cheung story but actually there are many conflicting ones by Wong Sheung Leung and other seniors of the time, as well as Hawkins Cheung who was BL close friend.

Yip had his most senior student, Dan Innosanto, teach Bruce outside of his school. Yip taught the "real" stances to only one student: Dan Innosanto. Yip told Dan not teach them to anyone until after his death, but hinted at training Bruce in this way. Innosanto did teach Bruce the real stances (apparently, before that, Bruce often complained about the stances not making any sense).

Thats flawed! Dan Inosanto was bruce lees senior student. Hes still alive today dude! After Bruce got kicked out of yips school (because he was not 100% chinese, his mother was 1/2 causican), he trained with Wong Sheung Leung in his school. Also spending some time with William Cheung - at least by the ONLY article you seem to be citing.

Bruce later developed his own style called Jun Fan Gong Fu, which was his combination of Wing Chun and Mantis. Much later he developed Jeet Kun Do as a means of summing up all the good in gong fu, leaving out all the bad, and correcting all the different styles' "imperfections"as he saw them.

ummm... he touched on a little mantis yes, its documented... he also studied Taijiquan and even some boxing back in Hong Kong. For sure it was his personal style but that means nothing.

-It was on this show, Dave, that they said "long before Bruce Lee made Wing Chun famous in America, the Triads had made it infamous on the streets of Hong Kong." I didn't mean to infer that every single member of the Triads used solely Wing Chun; just that it was notorious for being the Triads' main fighting style, whether that was really true or not. I mean hey, I wasn't there, but I wouldn't think that the History Channel could be too far off the mark.

for sure - its well known for being good at close fighting and mass attack. So is pak mei and southern mantis - and they are more aggressive too. But if this is where all your other info came from then dude, u need to do more research and see some different MA for real! Also for a tv show, just as a book... they work with who they can get and what interviews and accounts they can get.

Apparently Preying Mantis, Wing Chun, and any Shaolin gong fu system require you to be "really good" at it to be an effective fighter with it;

thats true for any MA skill, but it doesnt mean fighting is the only purpose. Also its no indication of how long it takes to be "really good".

But that's ok because I'm not going to stop after 1 year, nor am I boning up for a big fight or something, and I do plan to put in enough effort and study to become a really good figher with it, even though it will take much longer to be able to advance my skill enough to be able to effectively use its principles in a fight.

thats good take time to be clear on what you wanna do and look for a good Sifu... talk to people and watch classes and then it will help you see whats out there and focus what u wanna do more. Ask questions then you can find out more

As far as the doc stuff - it looks crazy! im sure u would have a lot of fun if you went on one of his Doc tours im more of a "southern" person than the northern shaolin - but it looks like a heck of a lot of fun!

good luck with what you do,
dave

[Michael]

Sorry, lol, You are absolutely right, Dave. William Cheung was the guy that taught Bruce for the 3rd and 4th years of Bruce's training, not Innosanto! Stupid me. I was writing my last post from about 4 to 5 am this morning and my brain tends to get a little fuzzy anyway, sometimes. And I didn't mean to imply that BL trained only 2 years in Wing Chun, just that his first two years were formal, under Yip Man, and the other 1 or 2 years were informal, with Cheung. And according to Bruce himself, he studied from some other master at the age of 13 for a year or two, but never took his training seriously until age 15 when he first started attending Yip's school. That is what he said in the video interview segment of The History Channel's biography on him.

I've never seen any Wing Chun clips online. Do you know where I could find some? Also, all the sites I've gone to to read about Wing Chun and other systems seem to be in agreement with The Gung Fu Institute at www.shaolin.com. It is obvious that you know quite a lot more about it and the other styles than any of the sites I've been to (not to mention how extremely biased the sites are). So do you know of any sites that have correct information regarding my search for truthful info on Wing Chun and all the Shaolin styles?

By the way, I live in central Arkansas. I've looked for Wing Chun training and found one place and even tried it out for a few weeks, but the teacher wasn't really that great. There just aren't any places close enough for me to attend. So, I guess I'll just have to wait 'til after I graduate, and can leave to train somewhere. Thanks so much for all your input, Dave.

[Maestro]

styles

yo..i just wanted to say..the history channel rocks! heheheheh and...id like to talk about those styles you mentioned mike

for one thing..your right, there are classifications of MA styles some are better then others and you are basically right when you say that kung fu is probably the most complex, effective(over time..), complete and healthy MA that is available to most people..

im not saying kung fu is the greatest thing that ever came to unarmed combat i mean how could anyone say that really?

for one thing the world is huge, and theres more myths and legends based on facts and fictions and half facts and half fictions that theres really no way anyone can claim they "know it all" about almost anything really

that being said..i dont really like how some people like doc say kung fu is only an effective martial art if your "really good at it" for one..its kinda biased saying that but its kinda true..

yes its true kung fu does take awhile to get "good" at..but thats just because its sooo complex..the health, spiritual, combat, philosophies bla bla oh god does it go on and on and on..the morals the this and that..kung fu is vast yes it is..but concerning combat i think that if it were the goal of the practitioner to be as effective as possible as quickly as possible(not in haste but..just perceptive to learn the combat applications) and with a good teacher..i think a kung fu practitioner would have a very good chance against a muy thai practitioner or a western boxer etc one of those more "direct" styles

i mean i definately see where docs coming from..i cant even imagine wanting to fight doc after training in choy li fut or hung ga for a year..but still that doesnt mean if i did try to focus almost completely on combat application for a year that i wouldnt have a chance against someone like him..

and also..theres the fact(which doc mentioned) kung fu in real combat..im talkin real kung fu..in REAL combat like a good fighter vs a kung fu stylist ...is a rare thing to see, in the last 50 years its been a rare thing to see and if someone claims theyve seen it more then once they are probably lieing..because i think to see a high lvl or even intermediate practitioner of kung fu in a real combat situtation struggling..is probably one of hte rarest things on earth

i have no doubts of where the rumours of kung fu being combat ineffective came from..but that doesnt mean wever seen all of what kung fu has to offer..

who knows maybe you can pass through walls and heal cancer in a single bound

like doc said to me once..shaolin is a nebulous(of somethin thats all i remember heheheh) but it is hes right..and to assume that anyone has it all down pat(kung fu) is kinda ridiculous..considering its overall scope..its just to much and its always good to have an open mind mike like you seem to have!

good stuff!

btw ..wing chun is good..i wont ever say different(dont think i have..) but like i said above you should keep your options open while looking for a martial arts style..like i said about taijijuan..and like dave mentioned ba ji juan or hwatever he said i dunno if ba ji juan is real i cant remember what he said..but baguazhang is also.. a really interesting and supposedly very effective internal kung fu style..then of course you have xing yi and others..

rant over good posts everyone

peace