Chinese people - treacherous? (I just wanted to ask...)

[Liu Bei]

Hey Doc,

I'm pretty much a newbie here - I joined up on this forum some months ago and posted a thread before, but that was about it. I just came back to this forum and saw this thread:

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2952

And I couldn't help but notice your comment about Chinese people... you see, I'm Chinese myself, and I sort of, well, take offense... well, this thread was going to come up eventually, so I felt I might as well be the one to bring it up.

What exactly have you seen in the Chinese people that makes you so distasteful of them? Are they really that bad? What rules do they live by exactly that doesn't make them awful?

Well, from what I understand from my parents (my mother especially), a lot of the crude behaviour found in modern Chinese was the result of history - the Mao era made a lot of people bitter, especially during the Cultural Revolution (when people often spied and persecuted their own neighbours), and there were no moral teachings being instilled in the youth at that time (the Chinese moral model, Confucianism, was illegal at the time), except loyalty to the Party and all that Mao-thought garbage.

My mom, who lived during this era, regarded that a lot of people she had interacted with from her generation are cold and distant; a possible product from the Mao-era, she theorized. Couple this with the rapid influx of western material-thought to fill the spiritual void, and you got those despicable Chinese, I guess.

I admit, my family has dealt with distasteful Chinese people in the past, but I don't like to think they are *all* trash, especially the youth. If China will really take up the mantle as the world's biggest superpower, I'd like to think the younger generation will learn from the mistakes of the past and reform the country - already there are Chinese, young and old, who are fighting to bring back traditional culture, including Confucian values, and I think that's a step in the right direction.

Well, maybe I'm being overly-optimistic, but I love my people that much, I guess. I hope you don't take offense to that, and my awful long rant... and the fact that this has nothing to do with Shaolin, whatsoever.

Please, lets discuss.

-Liu Bei

P.S.: Yongxin sucks balls. There, some mention of Shaolin here.

[doc]

Well, I'm really not sure what Yongxin does in his spare time, and it's really none of my business. If he enjoys sucking balls, then so be it.

MY OPINION: The points that you bring up are valid, and, I have to agree with all that you say. And, I might suggest, that from reading your post, I think that in a way, you agree with me.

Forgive me if I made people think that all Chinese are treacherous. I don't think I ever said that. I said that they play by different rules, and its very obvious when you deal with them, most especially, in business deals. As my attorneys made clear to me, when I was considering legal action against Xingwei for his breah of contract, and the defamation that was emanating from his loyal minions, nobody likes to deal with the Chinese in courts of law, "because they stick together, and they lie". And, from my personal experience, they do. And, there's a reason for that....

Someone asked me if I was going to host the famed annual Thanksgiving or Christmas monk party a few days ago, and I basically told them that those days were over. You see, the last one that I hosted, two years ago, I experienced something very distasteful. There most definitely were "battle lines" drawn between the Chinese that we had in our school, and the "Americans"; in fact, I had quite clearly sensed, as had other close members of our team who had worked very hard to bring Xingwei to America, that we were "outsiders". In my own damn house. During that party, few people had spoken with me, Kevin, JT, or Steve, or my current girlfriend at the time. There was something going on with the students that we could not put our finger on. It became quite clear a month later, when it was obvious that certain members of the Chinese community were trying to influence Xingwei into leaving us. Well, once I was on the plane to Thailand to take care of some legal things, contrary to what he had promised, and the agreements that we had made, he did. It was then clear to me, that prior to the party, the stage was being set for his departure. No doubt, the russbo gang, who had supported this individual so closely and so warmly, was being made out to be the bad guys. All in the effort to garner support for a future run with a new school. We didn't see it coming at the party, but we soon saw it evolve thereafter.

A very dishonorable thing to do, and, if I ever sit down and write about it, there are many more stories like this, during my experience with this school. It most definitely showed the stereotypical behavior that is described about the Chinese and their business activities. This behavior is not at all new to me; I've seen it over and over again, with other monks (especially with one who has successfully marketed himself with his self created persona over the years), and with businessmen that I've become close to in China. And, it's all the same. Deception, lying, false promises, basically, dishonorable behavior. "Get what I can get at any cost, and to hell with the everybody" sort of thing. Pretty disgraceful for such a proud and long established civilization. But, behavior which I fully understand the reasoning for.

You see, as opposed to in the west, where life is more stable, and a future is, well, not more promised, but, more "expected", we tend to build our business relationships, and our plans, based upon future happenings. We in the west tend not to be "shortsighted"; planning our business around what we expect to happen in a few years, as opposed to "now". We can do that, because we have had a more stable political situation, and economy, for many, many years. Plus, we in the west tend to be more educated, and more educated people tend to be less shortsighted and reactive.

The mainland Chinese (and the Thai for that matter), seem to be far more shortsighted, reactive, and uncaring for future potential issues. The instinct is not one of creating a huge customer base that one will support and be supported by, the instinct seems to be more based upon daily survival, and "what can I get now". And, you can't blame them. Considering their history, with uncertainty around the corner on a daily basis, getting through each day becomes paramount. It's no wonder that they behave business wise and otherwise in this matter. I see this behavior on a regular basis now that I am in Thailand, with the Thai (a very warm and loving people, who are also concerned about "today" instead of having a little farsightedness; but then again, I find this more with the uneducated Thai's then I do the educated ones). Believe me, I have stories to write about these experiences, but, since I seem to be overwhelmed by them lately (I'm in a lawsuit over this very issue now, and the behavior that I'm watching even in my own attorney, who is now gone, was eggregious at best). Again, a business deal with individuals who signed contracts two years ago, and basically ignored it. I've seen threats, intimidation, outright lying, deception, on and on. I don't know how these people can sleep at night.

Don't think that the Americans are not capable of slimey business behavior. Trust me, they are. And I've seen it. I have stories about that too, one which would make one hell of a book actually. A multimillion dollar embezzlement that led to an eight year odyssey that got me involved not only with the Chicago mafia, but with the FBI, an organized crime unit undercover team, death threats, etc, etc. When it comes to bad human behavior, I've seen it. But, I have to admit, that the Asians seem to have this "unethical businessman" stereotype attached to them for a reason; when it comes to honesty, loyalty, and business practices, you have to be extremely careful.

A Belgian that I had dinner with last night, along with some other foreigners, came here to Thailand to start a new life. It's a great place, full of wonderful people, who are warm, gentle and loving. A very peaceful place, just a wonder to be in. But he most definitely hated doing business with the Thais, in fact, I've heard this from every foreigner that I've come in contact with. Whether it's a lack of education, a lack of true business sense, or, the "Asians are smarter than the westerners" mentality, doing business here can be a ****ing nightmare. Contracts are meaningless, as are promises. People work when they get hungry. The work ethic can be atrocious. Again, more evidence of shortsidedness, lack of planning for the future, or, even an inability to think further ahead.

I've experienced it all, over and over again. You know, I'm a very generous person. Whether I'm in America, or in Asia, I go overboard to help people out, whether it be with money or other things that may be helpful to them. And, I've noticed two basic things.

In America, people for the most part don't give a rat's ass if you go out of your way to help them. They seem to expect it.

In Asia, people are extremely grateful if you help them, to the point where they will stick by you, well, forever. But, you also find the ones in Asia that misinterpret "generosity" with "stupidity", ie, "This fool gave me this, I can get more from him...". Again, I sense that quite a bit, and I have many stories that will demonstrate this. One of them, I'm actually dealing with now, with this damn court case. (What an adventure this is turning out to be).

But, even though doing business with the Chinese and the Thai is not the easiest thing in the world to do, I will say this. I find these people, even though their educational levels are generally below western standards, and their income levels are far below western standards, to be very warm and usually very considerate individuals. I have many Chinese friends who are extremely loyal and trustworthy, to some degree, even more so than some of my American friends. But, I don't do business with them. Keep money out of the equation, and relationships can be extremely strong and reliable.

I have a hell of a lot more to say, but, I'll leave it at this.

For now.

[zachsan]

Just remember, people who make broad generalizations about other people are all assholes.

[doc]

I'm not a big fan of stereotypes; my behavior doesn't follow them. I have a great many friends who are Thai and Chinese, and the general behavior that I have experienced in the past does not taint my activities with these people. But, stereotypes exist, and I think there are many reasons for that, one being the concept of "people in a community learning from each other", kind of a derivative of the nature versus nurture idea. People learn from their environment; the environments in mainland China are far different than that which we grew up in in the US.

It's my opinion, based upon my observations and experiences over many years. Asshole or not, it's what I believe.

[onesp1ng]

I was thinking, rather, that people who make broad generalizations in reference to others who make broad generalizations, are all scum. period.

[zachsan]

Well, there are two kinds of people in the world, those who draw simplistic dichotomies and those who don't.

[doc]

It most certainly would be nice if everything was either black or white, without the various shades of grey in between. It would make life a lot easier.

I personally don't see it that way. Sorry if you think I do.

[zachsan]

Doc, it's all a joke. Read my posts again. I don't post here a lot any more but I haven't turned in a total jackass while I've been gone.

Rather, I continue to be the partial jackass you all know and.... well, that you all know.

[doc]

No offense was taken, I was just trying to make sure that none was offered.

This is a difficult subject, which kind of makes it a good topic for discussion. If you really want to get into a discussion on stereotypes, damn, after living in Asia for all the time that I have, this could get terribly interesting. It most certainly has been quite the experience, fortunately, mostly in the positive.

[daodejing]

I think this is a legitamate point. Theres scoundrels of all colors and races but more and more people tend to this behaviour in the wake of political unrest and instability. They epitomize the basic economic maxim of making as much short term profit as possible at the expense of all else.

In more stable environments, say the US, a company has the stability to treat a return customer very well knowing that they will be a lifelong investor in the company, if they are appeased and repeatedly given what they want.

Similar behaviours run rampant in mexico, its not just the chinese.

[doc]

You see it in Thailand also, but, for some reason, it is not as obvious, and may be not as prevalent. Though the Thai have not necessarily have had a strong political situation over the past fifty years, (the past ten or so have been fairly stable, with a good healthy economy), the long term association with westerners may have had something to do with tempering this behavior.

There are bad eggs in every basket, and by no means do I want to suggest that Chinese people are bad. I have developed some very strong and loyal friendships over the years with many mainland Chinese, people who would be at my back in times of trouble. It just seems that business wise, the "rules" are different.

And, if you wanted to take this issue further, one might also suggest that you see it in America, with different ethnic groups. I'm not sure I want to open that pandora's box though, LOL.

[RJW]

I noticed this alot in the Philippines as well. The only people I trusted (and them too) was the immediate family, you didn’t trust aunts, uncles, cousins, in-laws (in fact family was the worst!) because they’d stab you in the back (ah, metaphorically ) and rip you off. There were cases were you inherited a house and when you went to the house you found other of your relatives had already moved in and told you piss off. On the whole I found that Filipinos are warm friendly giving people; HOWEVER they don’t have much so survival has taught them to get whatever they can out of you. Years ago when my partner and I were teaching women’s self defense we met a Filipino eskrima master. Again really nice guy and my buddy really liked and respected him. I sized him up on first meeting and while I liked him I knew he wasn’t someone to trust. As Doc stated as friends – great people, but stay away from money because it’s what ever they can get out of you, not because they’re particularly bad people it’s just the way survival has become ingrained in them. They sleep peacefully because they believe they’ve done no wrong, in the great game I won one over you – sucker, too bad. G’nite.

[doc]

They sleep peacefully because they believe they’ve done no wrong, in the great game I won one over you – sucker, too bad. G’nite.

I'll complicate this by bringing in the aspect of religion.

I think that Buddhist beliefs play a role in this. The whole concept of tolerance. And karma.

This should trigger a firestorm of shit...

[LeiYunFat]

The form of Buddhism practiced by my family and many other Chinese people is one that revolves around money, fortune, and superstition. Not the morals associated with the religion it's derived from.

[doc]

Well, that's not what I was getting at. But, you do have a point, I've seen that also.