abdominal breathing, overexpanding the abdomen and trapped air

[master splinter]

hey guys,

i was just looking for an opinion on something.


a while back (couple months ago) i was doing some standing meditation and expirimenting with deep abdominal breathing. and i think i breathed t a little too deep and perhaps stretched something? i really dont know.


doc, do you think that its possible that you can inhale too deeply to a point where oxygen can enter the body where it shouldnt be, and get trapped somewhere in the intestines or something? because after this happened i sometimes feel pressure on the heart and diaphragm, has anyone ever heard of this kind of thing happening?

im not sure whats going on, but i think now i know why they say not to practice this kind of stuff without a teacher.

anyone know what im saying? probably not, oh well.

[Maestro]

for one thing deep breathing doesnt neccesarily mean more air.

in qi gong you CAN focus on the breath, but its more important to focus on regulateing the flow of the qi. deep breathing is really just slow breathing, and you should feel your heart rate elevate somewhat at times.

as for pressure on the heart and diaphram..maybe you shouldnt attempt abdominal breathing if you dont know how. that would be my suggestion.

i do it naturally so i dont know what to say, i breath in this manner and ive experimented with reversed breathing and other methods because of my iron body practice and i can say with confidence ive never felt what you describe

but it doesnt sound good

[doc]

doc, do you think that its possible that you can inhale too deeply to a point where oxygen can enter the body where it shouldnt be, and get trapped somewhere in the intestines or something?

No. If you look at the anatomy of the pulmonary system, it's basically made up of two structures: the expandable chest wall, and the compliant, and also expandable, lungs. The lungs kind of just hang out inside the chest cavity, kept open only by the slightly negative pressure (vacuum) between them and the chest wall (the pleural space). When the chest expands, and the diaphragm drops, the increase in thoracic space causes a negative pressure to occur within that cavity; because the lungs adhere to the inside of the chest wall by virtue of the slight vacuum in the pleural space, the lungs also expand, and within them, a negative pressure also occurs. So, basically, when you breathe in, you're sucking air into the lungs because of the vacuum that you create.

If the lungs and breathing passages are intact, then air will only stay within their confines. If they are not intact, then the lung(s) will collapse, as the vacuum in the pleural space disappears. The normal compliance of the lungs causes them to collapse down. You just can't get air into other parts of the body with normal breathing.

When we put people on ventilators, for various reasons, we "breathe" them using positive pressure. The machine just blows air into the lungs, and the lungs expand, forcing the chest cage and diaphragm to move likewise. However, with positive pressure, various things can happen; air can be forced into the surrounding tissues, such as the inside of the chest around the heart, the neck, the skin around the chest and abdomen, etc, given the proper physiological, disease, and ventilator conditions. You can also get these conditions during scuba diving, and, rapid decompression situations (such as in an airplane).

You can "suck" air into other parts of your body; expanding the abdomen during breathing, to allow the diaphragm to drop, may also cause air to be drawn into the stomach. This eventually leads to the much beloved "burp". The problem with getting too much air into your stomach, is that it takes up space; the more expanded the stomach is, the less the diaphragm can drop during inspiration, and, therefore, the less air you can draw into your lungs. Thus, doing things like drinking soda (carbonated liquids which bring CO2 into your stomach), or exercising after eating (swallowing air), can be detrimental to your physical performance.

Most air that is swallows is eventually passed on upward, and does not continue down the intestinal tract.

[LeiYunFat]

If it was in your intestines, you'd probably fart it out.

Sounds to me like you just strained your diaphram due to over exertion. But...I'm not doctor.

[doc]

Not sure if you can strain your diaphragm. But you can certainly strain the muscles attached to your chest wall; some of them, such as the rhomboids, when strained, can be pretty painful.

[master splinter]

i think i did get air forced into my tissues, i felt a weird vibration in my diaphragm area.

so doc, what would one do when something like this happens???

[doc]

Well, basically, you can't. Unless you're on a ventilator, or, breathing compressed air with external pressure changes (diving, some instances of flying, ie, rapid ascent). I wouldn't worry about it. More than likely, it has to do with swallowed air.

[master splinter]

okay, so its been months now and i still feel bloated, and its hard for me to breathe somethime, also i get some killer headaches that almost feel like im gonna get an anuerism, so i swallowed too much air, what is going on?

also, after i swallowed this air, i injured my left oblique muscle and it just threw my whole body out of whack, i feel like i threw off my spinal skeletal alignment, do you think i should get x rayed or see a chiropractor or an acupunctuist? lmao. pity me.

[doc]

Do you have trouble breathing in, or have trouble breathing out?

Do you make any audible noises when you breathe? Where do you live? Do you get short of breath when you sleep, when you exercise, around cats, doing nothing, do you have any allergy symptoms?

[daodejing]

Do you feel bloated all the time?
Or only after eating?
Or only after doing this "possibly too deep breathing"?

Which times is it hard for you to breathe?
Is it as doc mentioned the inhale, the exhale or all of it that is difficult?

If your really concerned about your skeletal alignment, see a chiropracter, an osteopath, or a TCM practitioner with significant Tui Na training. They are the only medical practitioners you see doing significant spinal realignments. Or a Rolfer, but make sure they're good, and its going to hurt alot whether they're good or not.

But to reiterate doc's statement, if you had breathed so deep you forced air into places that it shouldnt be, that means you had a hole or holes in your lungs. If you have a hole in your lungs that you're forcing air out of, breathing too deeply is the least of your problems. Sounds more like an abdominal strain, indigestion, or possibly even a rib fracture depending upon how bad this pain is. More than likely an abdominal strain. Relax, dont push the qi, lead it. Practice softer.

[Maestro]

well i dont agree that spinal realignments will hurt no matter what.. ive had my share of spine problems and it never hurt when they did whatever

it usually feels really good.

from my exp unless the spinal problem is really bad like a hernia or something crazy you can remedy it by visiting the chiropractor a few times and keeping good posture in sleep and while sitting, walking or whatever

but in the end i say go see a doctor, you sound messed up.

[master splinter]

yeah i know, its a bad deal.

the only pain i really feel is in my last couple vertebra (bottom) specifically on the right side, i have alot shit wrong with my right side, so im always having to stretch, touch my toes, and crap like that.

it seems that incident i had involving breathing inreased my risk for injury in that region, or maybe it was a coincidence that i hurt myself in the same spot muscularly, as i did when i hurt myself breathing. i just think i wasnt ready for it (like most of the things i have to do in life) i probably hurt myself due to poor conditioning. when i started to study internal martial arts, i got lazy and fat, because i didnt train much during that time, i was buried in books and mostly alone in my backyard. (though i got to experiment later)

the force i applied was twisting the abdomen combined with pushing with the bottom of the foot, i think my muscles gave and then therefore injuring my skeletal structure,
i get the same thing in my upper back from another injury, there's just certain things your body cant and shouldnt do, and ive had a few messed up episodes.

it sucks, sometimes it hurts, but it doesnt really effect me otherwise,

and im good, i dont need any doctor probing me for hernia and hemerr-hoids (lol, i tried to spell it)

maybe ill see a chiropractor or a acupuncturist first, to me, its not serious enough to visit a doctor doctor.

[daodejing]

hey guys,

i was just looking for an opinion on something.


a while back (couple months ago) i was doing some standing meditation and expirimenting with deep abdominal breathing. and i think i breathed t a little too deep and perhaps stretched something? i really dont know.


doc, do you think that its possible that you can inhale too deeply to a point where oxygen can enter the body where it shouldnt be, and get trapped somewhere in the intestines or something? because after this happened i sometimes feel pressure on the heart and diaphragm, has anyone ever heard of this kind of thing happening?

im not sure whats going on, but i think now i know why they say not to practice this kind of stuff without a teacher.

anyone know what im saying? probably not, oh well.

You would need a pneumothorax to get air where it really shouldnt be.

However by forcing the breath it is possible to strain a muscle, or swallow air. If enough air is swallowed, this can cause discomfort in the form of bloating.

But that would be easily releived by relaxing and farting.


Just train softer. You were forcing the breath.

[mbokohutu]

i just think i wasnt ready for it (like most of the things i have to do in life) i probably hurt myself due to poor conditioning. when i started to study internal martial arts, i got lazy and fat, because i didnt train much during that time, i was buried in books and mostly alone in my backyard. .

You ****ing loser. After all the hate you put on me over the past years, it turns out you are fat, lazy, and playing around in your backyard at internal martial arts?

Where do dumbshits like you come from? What the hell do you think you are doing talking down what I say, when you are fat, lazy, and playing around in your backyard? What kind of stupidity is floating around in your head that makes you think you have the right to correct someone who has done martial arts for decades?

You ****ing loser!

You are in pain because it is Karma. Your hate towards me, trashing all those threads with your constant stupidity....you got what was coming to you.

Your headaches are probably your chi moving around you fool. If you are doing chi gung work, the energy is moving into your head and getting stuck. That is because you are a bonehead. If you weren't a bonehead, then the energy could flow freely, and not headache.

What you need to do is stop being a loudmouthed asshole, and listen to your betters. Work on loosening up that bony head of yours so information and chi can get in there and move around.

You piece of shit. I dealt with your shit for months, and you are fat, lazy knownothing, and screwing around in your backyard.

[doc]

I can see this is going to get good...