Shaolin Temple UK Training

[doc]

Does it really matter who can kick who's ass? Is that the reason why we are here? Is that the reason why we all train in gong fu?

Hmmmmm. I must have missed something all these years.

[Lipster]

Doc, efficiency of combat ability is interesting enough to be discussed. Even the monks fight at some point to test their combat ability. I don't think this has descended to 'who can kick who's ass'.

Vince, when exactly do you think these guys are gonna have 'real' fights? It's exactly what they stand against. I'm sure they could have several fights a day with people who look at them wrong if they chose to, but, um, they're monks. They're sorta peaceable. Yes some of them might fight in competitive matches to test their ability and the legitimacy of their art but come on, do you think these guys are wandering around having fights to convince their students of how good they are? And all this talk of their combat efficiency never fails to amuse me. When you're dealing with athletes of their calibre - which in a word is unique - style is pretty much irrelevant.

The very fact that you say you'd want to see traditional gong fu used by a monk in a fight shows you're not thinking straight. What do you think a 'real' fight with a monk [or even without one] would consist of? One strike, maybe two? That's about all it would be. How many people do you think can take a steel fist or leg or elbow to the face with even half the power a monk can muster? Exactly what in a fight like that would you be able to tell was 'traditional'? This just illustrates what the media has done to the concept of fighting. The point in a real fight is to disable your opponent with the quickest and most powerful strike you can muster. With strikes from a master or even from a competent fighter, it probably wouldn't take more than one or two. It's quick and it's not pretty to watch. Unless you get off on that sorta thing.

Pardon my ignorance, I've never seen a UFC fight. How much more 'real' is it then boxing, for example? Either everything is in or out; real or not. I agree with the fact that matches and real fighting are different, but either it's 'real' [with someone who ain't gonna let you go until he's cracked your skull] or it's a match. The fact that one kind of match is more violent and more techniques are allowed doesn't make it 'real', not by a long shot.

Peace

[Maestro]

originally

i am thinking straight

you act as if theres no such thing as traditional kung fu application just because you dont think its probable in a fight

thats where i get upset

because you guys just dont have the answers im looking for..and thats not very settling

in the original ufc tournaments just about anything went

like i said before, i compared a real fight to that of a ufc tournament only to show that there were no boundaries

of course monks arent going to go around looking for fights

but the point is, they claim to teach shaolin kung fu for spiritual/health/combative purposes

and im not so certain about the latter

i dont need a lesson on how a fight works or whatever

im actually getting tired of people telling me that, as if there is some sort of standard for a fight..oh it has to end this way..oh no it will always be quick..nope sorry cant use stances..bla bla bla bla bla

you know what, im not the one coming off as ignorant or not thinking straight

people who sterotype are the ones who are ignorant

i dont care who says what

its obvious to me that no one has the answers im looking for and they arent even that important anyway

ill find out my answers in time when i feel like getting them from personal experience

untill then, its my perogitive to research..question..and research again

but as for this topic..i dont seem to be getting anywhere with the questions im asking so i guess ill just stop right there

im just not getting through to some of you people..including doc who just thinks im out to get answers about who can hurt who the best..which isnt the case

and thats troubling to me when the guy whose oppinion i respect the most doesnt understand my intentions..

so

rant over heheheh

[Lipster]

RAAAAAAA

im actually getting tired of people telling me that, as if there is some sort of standard for a fight..oh it has to end this way..oh no it will always be quick..nope sorry cant use stances..bla bla bla bla bla

I didn't say traditional applications can't be used in a fight. Of course they can. My point about fighting is exactly what you said - you can never say that 'so and so' will happen. It's just that fighting doesn't look the way most people would envisage it, i.e. traditionally applicable. That is why Sanda is not separate from TGF, once you see how the two are integrated. Bottom line is the only way you'll ever know for sure is if you train with one and see it first hand. And you'd never be able to see TGF and Sanda as one until you trained [or watched] it yourself and had a working knowledge of traditional applications - which you don't. Neither do I, but I've seen a bit...

but the point is, they claim to teach shaolin kung fu for spiritual/health/combative purposes and im not so certain about the latter

This is a common logical fallacy called the Cartesian standard. It's what WKK's entire rationale was based on. Just because it's conceivable that they can't apply their art in combat doesn't make it so. The burden of proof is on you, not me. The odds are largely in the monks' favour, they are incredible athletes who have been trained in an art which has hundreds of years of evolution. There is no logical evidence to indicate that they have lost the essence and true combat efficiency of TGF as WKK says. All the factors seem to indicate that they can woop some major league ass. So what decent evidence is there to show that they can't use their GF correctly, aside from personal opinion? Just the fact that they don't use it? That's pretty weak.

Aside from saying, 'well I don't think they can really fight', please explain why. If the only reason is because they don't, then what the heck's the big fuss?

Peace

[wooden dummy]

Shifu Yanzi is undefeated in about 11 san shou tournaments in total, including about 2 invitation-only international tournaments. From what I've been able to find out, he stopped attending the tournments because once they discovered he was going to be there, other contestants just dropped out from not thinking they had a chance. His training specialised in sparring and Iron disciplines (mainly fist, leg, body and head). Why am I telling you all this? Because these factors put together mean that I, for one, sure as hell wouldn't want to pick a fight with him.

I try and be as patient with your rantings as I can, because a lot of the time I find I actually agree with you, and I've gotten used to your somewhat... shall we say, indelicate style of writing... but all the same, you do come out with some real ignorant shit sometimes You wanna find out if monks can use their arts in a real-life situation? Go up to one and smack him in the face. We'll just see how long you last.

As far as all the stuff about tournaments (UFC, Pride, K1 etc) go, I have to say, as much as some of those guys do seem pretty tough, I've seen fights a hell of a lot rougher in the school playground when I was 12 years old. Don't believe for a moment that I'm joking. Also, it does seem to me that the guys with TMA training (I'm not talking about the grapplers or the kickboxers) usually have a lot better chance of winning than the "Mixed" martial "artists" (which roughly translates as "guys who don't have the patience to keep training in a single martial art so they go for a system with some basic efficiency principles and learn some grappling moves and then hope that brute force will get them through). For instance, I have never seen a single fighter in any of those matches who can even block a punch properly. Maybe I just haven't watched enough of them, but Seriously. They just cover up like a boxer and wait for the other guy to stop trying to hit them. If one of them ever came up against somebody who was any good at wing chun, they'd never land a punch.

Case in point: I saw a match a while ago between some guy called something like "Crocam", I think he was from Denmark or somewhere around there, I forget... anyway, he was fighting this seriously HUUUGE guy called Bob Sapp. Now, Bob obviously had very little in the way of MA training, he had no decent footwork and NO stance to speak of whatsoever (oh yeah, that's another thing, why don't any of those guys use any stances? Do they not realise how much better of a defensive position it gives you?)... anyway, the Danish dude, by comparison, was obviously a fairly decent technical fighter, he had aa good sense of spacing, timing etc, brought on by proper training in a good MA background (exactly what art, I now forget... sorry). The first round was spent sizing each other up, mainly consisting of Sapp, a massive, intimidating guy, chasing the Danish guy around the ring for a while... scarcely a punch was hrown. Round 2 starts. A little circling around each other... one punch. I mean ONE PUNCH from the Danish guy, and Sapp was down, flat on the ground and bawling like a baby, I kid you not. Fight over. The slow-mo revealed that the punch was a good, technical piece of traditional MA technique- power came from the ground up, springing up off of the back foot, up to the shoulder and straight out in a left cross, with a snap at the end. Connected right under Bob's eye. Gentlemen, it was a beautiful thing. Restored my faith in traditional MA (as if it ever needed restoring), over the silly wild flailing punches and ineffectual, badly- timed low roundhouse kicks, and "grappling" that makes me have to change channels because it too closely resembles gay porn. I mean, these guys end up rolling around on the floor, straddling and hugging each other. And this is supposed to represent the highest level of "extreme" fighting around today?

[dave]

hey mate, have you ever sparred a boxer before? It can be quite hard to use wing chun against them especially

The way boxers and kickboxers cover while moving offline is actually very efficient as it lets you stay in YOUR range so you can also hit. San Da from what i have seen does the same. Its very tricky when people can "leak" hands around you. Covering is basically what a block/parry is - using another part of your body other than your head to dissipate the energy. Just a different way of doing it.

i have never trained with any of the monks, but i have seen shi yan zi do a demo up close. i can tell by his MA attitude and focus (just the look in his eyes) that i wouldnt wanna mess with him

dave

[Bungle]

Sorry, i don't believe anyone should train for self defense. http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/. If you are worried about defending your self or how well you'll fair in a fight then the problem isn't the lack of confidence in your fighting ability, the problem is that your thinking about fighting and self defence!

Your thinking and fantasing about scenarios that are not real and your so in grossed in them that your becoming stressed and scared. The solution you feel, is not to stop thinking about fighting but to become a great fighter so that when you fantasize about these scenarios you are the victor; IN YOUR HEAD! It is bollocks, the shit going on in your mind has no place in reality and none of the scenarios will ever take place. Wake up and read something about this subject.

Monks, well they're buddhists and what i basically told you up there is a little budhist insight. These monks don't entertain thoughts on self defense and so it isn't a question of whether their kung fu works for self defence. It's a question of buddhist cultivation, even when they practice kung fu and that is it.

Martial competition, well it is a sport. Leave them to it. Not everyone who plays foot ball tries out for teams.

[Maestro]

lol

lol..

when did people get so stupid around here

lipster..i cant tell the difference between traditional and what wushu or kempo persay? oh i cant huh?

well you coulda fooled me

bottom line is woodens answers are laughable..bungle is just confused

and im still left without any real answers and thats fine with me

like i said above..its no difference, and i will learn from personal experience with the monkz

i dont know why you guys try so hard to convince me of all this dumb shit ive heard and probably said before, but im not about to try and figure you all out..

what it comes down to is i dont really care about shi yanzis san da tournaments

and i dont care what techniques he is supposed to have trained in

im hearing alot of..oh hes said to have done this..or that

like i care?

when it comes down to it, the only way im going to get some real answers about yan zi would be to ask him myself..or some senior student at shaollin uk(no offense lipster)

but you dont seem to have the answers..you just dont know enough about the place i guess..otherwise youd say something that could actually help your case..like for one backing up the fact that kung fu isnt just about the form

which you havent..i havent heard diddly around here about stamina training..hard body training(only the supposedlys), speed..agility..bla bla

all i hear around here is..oh ya ...shi yanzi is one crazy mutha ****a..he be like an athelete and hes crazy bo bazy

thats about it..no yea we train in iron body..or yea sure we do eagle claw training or oh yea we do this to develope this or that to acquire this..

all i asked was if yanzi ever used traditional shaolin gongfu in a fight and i got back a bunch of bs about san da, kung fu forms and some rumors or whatever

its a little depressing...just the sheer waste of time of writing stuff like this and not getting through

i got wooden over here talking out of his ass about NHB and mocking boxing and grappling..putting little quotations around "martial arts" as if to demean them is something other than a martial art..calling them "simpler" and acting as if these NHB fighters train for a couple months and just jump into the octagon with the quickness

but its ok..ignorance is bliss as they say

and bungle i got no idea what hes talking about..doesnt think you should train in a martial art for self defense i guess that means at all..

well thats a novel idea

anyway..what this rant is really all about is me..mocking you guys posts..because they are just all shit

they really dont have anything original to say..you seem to forget ive been studying this shit for what 3 years now..training for the past few months and keeping intouch with all sorts of martial artists around the world

and you guys act as if i never heard of sanda..or "real fights"

its a little annoying being demeaned when all your trying to do is find answers...just because you guys dont have those answers or dont accept my question..doesnt mean you have to spout out a bunch of bull shit..which it is..its all bullshit, nothing useful here

sharing ideas is great when they are things you dont know or havent heard of..i just feel like im being patronized by people who either dont know what there talking about, or who just dont get what im trying to say

either way..

rant over

heheheh

[wooden dummy]

3 YEARS!!! OH MY GOD!!! HE'S BEEN TRAINING 3 YEARS!!! Well, that's it, I dunno about you guys but I'm going to have to bow down to his knowledge, as he clearly must be the (drumroll please)... MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE MAN ABOUT MARTIAL ARTS EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE

Man, that's the last time I ever defend you on Shaolinwolf lol

[doc]

Well, I see Maestro is in one of his rare feisty moods today, lol. Always good to see him return to his beloved form every once in a while.

Vince, you're in need of some enlightenment here. One of these days you're just going to have to come to China with me and the gang. It will definitely be a good experience for you.

(Oh, and that no nonsense fighting web site actually has some good information in it).

[Bungle]

Why does maestro want to learn shaolin kung fu anyway? I've gathered your trying to proove its combat efficiency, to see whether you should waste your time learning it. Why do you want to learn effective combat techniques? I really recommend you read the site i gave you a link to (martial art section), its a bit of an eye opener.

Personally, i got into this thread because i want to know whether grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit is a fraud. If not, his qi gong looks pretty handy; i'm not interested in his kung fu really. Though i admit, at one time i was.

[doc]

Personally, i got into this thread because i want to know whether grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit is a fraud.

Oh oh, now here's trouble. Time for a new thread.

[Maestro]

monkz

im not in a feisty mood..im just saying

woodens never trained in anything his whole life and he deameans boxing and kickboxing as if they arent martial arts

and then he goes on to talk about NHB as if its some gimpy sport where ameuteurs just go in and grab each others asses

but thats besides the point

the point is......................

i respect these monks physical prowess..im just saying

I DONT CARE IF THEY CANT BEAT PEOPLE UP

all i cared about was if they can beat people using traditional shaolin kung fu

you guys went all crazy defending them as if it matters to me how many san da comps yan zi has won

I DONT CARE

[Maestro]

bungle

bungle..what are you talking about

did i say anything about my training?

NO

god in heaven ya ****ers, all i was asking was about 1 damn guy and now im getting the down low on the whole freaking network of monks around the world

im not trying to prove this or that..all i wanted to know was 1 simple thing

has yan zi ever applied traditional shaolin kung fu in a combat situation

a yes or no would have been great

if yes..some detail..if no

then nothing

because the rest is shit

[doc]

Well, you have to remember something.

Sanda is derived from traditional gong fu.

All the movements in sanda (that I have learned so far), can be found in the JiBenGong, and in various traditional forms.

"...the rest is shit". Deep, very insightful and deep. I like it.

doc