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  • #16
    Renato, Thx for your efforts. I've just calculated a little. Unluckily its out of my price range. There are two other reasons that make me pretty sure that I have to deny your offer. First: I thought a bit more about what I want and I'm pretty sure I want to have shaolin, where I always have the option to do some Tai Chi besides (I hope). Second: I'm nopt sure if I really could train hard by myself. I believe I'm likely to, but then again, who knows what one is able to do in hypothetical situation until the situation really comes. I hope I didn't waste your time. I appreciate your help a lot. Honestly!



    Doc, I've been through the threads again now and I've also read a whole lot of other things on your site. As I said in my first post: wiser but still lost.

    Shaolin is a very controversial thing, prob the most controversial Martial Art existing, since its one of the most interesting and popular, hence our view upon it is dimmed by storie, movies, legends, cliches and strong criticism. (I hope u know what I mean. Sry for my english.) Since I started to do research on it, I have meet many, often very contrary views on its existence or authenticity in China (sometimes even in general) including very convinving ones on both sides. More knowledge led to more questions, more confusion. I'm sure u know what I mean.

    At this point I have to say I trust your opinion about it. This may sound very foolish and naive to some people, since you are a person like everybody else being subjective like everybody else and plus I have never even talked to you personally. But you seem to have a lot of experience, knowledge and contacts in Shaolin and I like your point of view on the whole Shaolin / training in China thing. Therefore I try to stop this bloody questioning that does lead nowhere but nowhere and believe myself in good hands with you and the elite members of this site.

    Thank you for your effort with De Cheng. I don't think you know how much I appreciate it. Honestly, I believe your doing a great job, trying to get good deals at good schools for people you have never met. In this point you are far a better person than I am, cause I don't think I would ever spend so much time helping random people from all around the globe. You have all my respect for that one.
    Back to De Cheng: I know you are his disciple and I've read about that caring disciple-master relationship. therefore I perfectly understand that you suggest him to everybody. Before, I said that I trust your opinion. Therefore I do believe that De Chengs school is a very good school an it would be an absolute honour to train with him. But the money, the bloody money...

    In your FAQ there is a letter correspondence between you and somebody interested in training in China. To cut a long story short: He sais de Cheng is too expensive, you reply with some good argument I have forgotten that convinces him to go there. Now, don't get me wrong. I do believe he's worth every penny, but I just can't change my financial situation. Let's leave aside the fact that I have been earning Chinese money for the last year, which wasn't even much since I have been working as an English teacher not having a uni degree and not even being a native. My familie's financial situation at home doesn't look much better. I know they charge more for foreigners and there's no way around that. Here I just want to say that part of my family lives in a small village in south italy and they would like to emigrate to richer, "better" countries just as much as the Chinese do. What keeps them from doing it is not some visa difficulties but only the finances. The other party of my family is German, they are a bit better off moneywise, not much though and there's no way I'll get some more money sent from home in order to afford a good school. If I'm going to be a financial pain in the ass to my family it will be for uni and not for MA. So what I have is what I have and I can't spend more. Staying for a shorter period of time in order to choose quality over quantity is out of discussion as well for me, since one month is a short time already.
    Therefore I'm questioning your efforts arraniging a price with De Cheng (here we go again with the bloody questioning!). I don't want you to go through the pain of bartering with your master and friend only to hear me telling you in the end that I still can't afford it. I don't think either of you will be happy about that after a long bargaining around between you two.

    Also I think as a martial artist I'm not worth to train with De Cheng personally (I'm not talking about me as a person. My self-esteem isn't that low). I mean, I have no bloody experience. He should spend his time trainig people of an advanced level, who can gain more from him and I'm sure he would actually prefer that. So why should I buy myself a privilege I'm not worth of? Why bother him with an amateur? (Since nobody answered my question about wushu/traditional for a beginner I think I just did it myself.)

    Don't get me wrong. I'd still like to go there. And I'd still LOVE to train with him as a person. Please just consider my thoughts when talking to him about a price. I really hope Im not gonna regret this, but personally I think any low-cost school with good coaches and good intentions will do. Please correct me if Im wrong.


    Now some people may think I'm exaggerating making such a fuss about one month of training, especially considering my poor experience. Others though may understand the better how important this is to me. One thing's for sure: I won't live China a\before I have got my experience!

    Sorry for the long reading. I just want to give you a better inisght about my situation and it's importance to me. I would love to hear what you think. Besides, everyone who has an opinion about this is more than welcome to share it, no matter how much you think you can help me. Thanks a lot.


    Btw: Please note that none of what I have written is meant offensive to anyone, especially not to you, doc. I know my style of writing can be recieved as insulting sometimes (Che wen Long, Si Ping Shaolins Manager certainly thought it was...).
    Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:16 PM.

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    • #17
      no stress man. good luck in whatever you decide to do. my last piece of advice is, would be whatever it is you do, pay no more than a month up front...


      There are only 10 types of people in this world.
      Those that understand binary and those that don't.

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      • #18
        OK, few things.

        I recommend DeCheng for one reason and one reason only.

        I know him.

        And with that, I trust him. Now, not to be offensive, but I can't say that about most mainland Chinese I have met. And as I've said before, with these budding Capitalist Chinese (I said this in 1995), you can't trust them, and they don't give a shit about the usual customer relationship. It's make money today, and screw tomorrow.

        Which is why I send people to Dechengs. I've known him for thirteen years, he's a regular guest at my house, and I at his. He's never done anything dishonorable with respect to me, or anyone I have sent to him.

        I got the updated prices, see attached. However, for the people I send to him, he'll take $750 US per month, two month minimal stay, includes accommodations at school, food, training, and all the pain and dysentery you can handle.

        Considering prices of things nowadays, that's pretty damn good.
        Attached Files
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)
        russbo.com


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        • #19
          Doc

          Ok. Maybe I shouldn't have implied that you recommend him because of your relationship. Sorry. It wasn't meant offensive.

          I have read a lot of what you have written on this site. Living one year in China, I can only agree (from what I've seen) to most of the things you say, be it about China in general or the martial arts situation over here. That's why I trust and appreciate your opinion. You just say what I think and besides you also know a lot more than I do, especially when it comes to MA.

          I think I have said pretty much everything that keeps me from going to De Cheng in my last post. Although, feeling it's a great place to go, I'd love to go.

          Here's my financial situation: With all the money I've saved up, I will only be able to spend 5000 Yuan on MA. I probably should have mentioned that earlier. Sorry.

          It's obviously not enough for De Cheng's school, so I think I'll just go to dengfeng by myself and check out some places I have read about on this site hoping all goes well. If you have any further advise/suggestion/information it would be nice if you tell me.

          I seriously hope I didn't waste your time, doc.

          Thanks for your efforts.
          Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:16 PM.

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          • #20
            OK, few things.
            I got the updated prices, see attached. However, for the people I send to him, he'll take $750 US per month, two month minimal stay, includes accommodations at school, food, training, and all the pain and dysentery you can handle.

            Considering prices of things nowadays, that's pretty damn good.[/quote]

            btw: I do believe its a good price, Im just not able to pay it. I hope finding a good school within my price range. As I said, I don't mind low living conditions for one month. It's the instructors I care about.
            Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:17 PM.

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            • #21
              No offense was taken, implied or even thought of. I'm just trying to be honest.

              It would be eggregious of me to recommend something that I don't have recent information about. And as I have not been to China in almost two years (but have seen and been in touch with Decheng on a regular basis), it would be wrong of me to send you to another school, when I don't know the current conditions.

              Going on your own will be fun, and most definitely be an adventure. But, some suggestions:

              Be careful of your expectations. It will not be what you expect, but, it will be an experience, and more than likely, a worthwhile one.

              Caveat Emptor. Buyer beware. Do not pay anything up front for long term. Be careful, these people are not interested in your progress as a martial artist; they're interested in getting money so that they can put food on the table. Always keep that in mind. Always question people's motives.

              Have a fall back position. If you get into trouble, head to Decheng's, and have the school get in touch with me. Arrangements can always be made on an emergency basis.


              Have fun. Keep us posted as to how your journey continues.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)
              russbo.com


              Comment


              • #22
                Thanks a lot again.

                I've just done some thinking: Obviously I have saved more money than what I mentioned earlier. The sum I mentioned earlier is what I plan on still having when I go to dengfeng, subtracetd by the cost of a new visa and other expenses.

                In case I will have more than expected when I go there, could I still come back to your offer for De Chengs school? It's rather unlikely that I can afford to stay there for one month, but who knows...

                I'll keep u informed anyway how my adventure goes.

                If there's anything I can do for you when I'm there, let me know and I'll see if I can help. That's the least I can offer to return your favour.
                Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:19 PM.

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                • #23
                  seems like you have your mind set... currents take us where they flow...

                  but i always wonder why people don't find a small place with a local teacher. why always the big schools with their curriculum, etc.

                  what about this guy?
                  [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mr5vQm_i09I&feature=related"]YouTube- Lu Zijian[/ame]

                  i mean i don't know about his school/teaching etc in china, but there are people around if you look.

                  or come to taiwan and i'll introduce you to some people..

                  :-)
                  ZhongwenMovies.com

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                  • #24
                    Onespring,

                    I actually would prefer to find a small place to train. But even though Ive been here for one year I never got to find some place. To tell the truth, I didn't really spend much time looking for one either. I feel stupid now that I didn't.

                    Not sure how trustworthy the small places in Shaolin are. according to this site its a hit and miss to find one and as I know the Chinese I think it'd be rather a miss, but when I get to Dengfeng I'll certainly have a look around.

                    YouTube is blocked in China, so I couldn't see the video. they didn't have any videos of this guy on baidu (chinese youtube), but some pics. Haha, he looks awesome. I'll see what I can find on him in the internet.

                    Taiwan, I would go if I had enough money and time and this not only for MA. I've heard that its a great place, the better version of china.

                    Thx for your suggestion anyway. Please feel free to share more with me if you can/want.
                    Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:19 PM.

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                    • #25
                      I've read somewhere that many schools would take you also if u have less money than they expect you to pay? Is that true? Does that mean I could also try that at De Chengs when I'm in dengfeng?

                      Sorry. I know I must be annyoing asking questions all the time. It's just the most difficult thing I've ever had to organize.
                      Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:20 PM.

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                      • #26
                        yeh, dont worry about annoying anyone, im boss of that department

                        honestly as good as de cheng is he is seemingly never there and i still wouldnt pay that price to train with him, its just not even close to worth it. maybe if it was a nice place to stay with good food. but its not, its a shit hole with shit food and wushu training you can get anywhere from anyone.

                        doc gave you de chengs prices why dont you talk to lfj send him a pm maybe he could help you with de yang maybe not..its worth a try i guess

                        if not just go there find a cheap hotel and see about training with those guys day by day or hour by hour or something and go train in the hills or something. thats what id do, go when its somewhat warm, learn as much as you can in a day, and just drill it, drill basics drill the techs they teach etc shaolin style lol

                        and whats his face there de jian look into him

                        im far from any kind of expert ive never even been there just sayin
                        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                        • #27
                          First of all, thx heaps again, Maestro.


                          if not just go there find a cheap hotel and see about training with those guys day by day or hour by hour or something and go train in the hills or something. thats what id do, go when its somewhat warm, learn as much as you can in a day, and just drill it, drill basics drill the techs they teach etc shaolin style lol
                          thx for the quite interesting suggestion. Sounds good. If I'd do that, I'd probably stay each week at a different school. In one month that would be 4 schools. It's easier to pick 4 than just 1. But then again, talking about money it would be quite a bit, I guess.



                          honestly as good as de cheng is he is seemingly never there and i still wouldnt pay that price to train with him, its just not even close to worth it. maybe if it was a nice place to stay with good food. but its not, its a shit hole with shit food and wushu training you can get anywhere from anyone.
                          Part of me strongly agrees with you. Most of these schools charge me more for a month than I earned per month in China.

                          I do believe they are certainly worth the money for somebody who teaches shaolin in the west, even though Ive heard of teachers coming here and leaving dissapointed. But for someone like me having no experience really worth mentioning I believe it's too much money.

                          Besides the little experience I have in MA (listed in the first post) I have a lot of other "little experiences" in many other sports and that's how I want it, be it for MA as for any sport. Therefore I don't think its worth it paying so much money, especially since it's a lot more wush than anything else.

                          On the other hand, I don't want to go to a place where I work my ass off for one month but where instructors don't correct me if I'm wrong. I know it would only be the basics but that's where you should be supervised and corrected the most. Therefore I'd rather pay more than less, cause the experience would be much more worth if its quality and professionality is high, even if it is just wushu. Just immagine I'd chose to continue shaolin at home only to find out that everything I got taught in China is full of flaws.



                          I've just done some more research. "The more I see, the less I know, the more I wanna let it go." Sorry for quoting the red hots but that's exactly how I feel. The more information I gather, the more difficult it becomes and the more I just wanna give up, which is bad.

                          When I arrived in China almost exactly one year ago I never thought of staying for that long. Half a year teaching plus one month MA is what I thought. Then the rather typical story. Met a girl and decided Id rather spend time and money with her. But I didn't want to abbandon my plans about MA, which where the main reason for coming here, so I decided to stay for another 6 month to earn and save money. I even cancelled my return flight. Here I am now and it would be undescribably dissapointing if I went home without getting the experience I want.

                          It's probably some of these things where I need to make up my mind by myself, since I'm very indecisive. But still, I really appreciate advise of people who are just more into Chinese MA than I am.



                          and whats his face there de jian look into him

                          Shi de Jian is one of the schools on my list I would check out in Dengfeng if I don't make up my mind (which I hopefully do) before I go there.

                          That's pretty much my list:
                          Shi de Cheng obviously
                          Shi de Yang
                          Chan Wu Gong Fu Academy (reconsidering it)
                          Tagou (reconsidering ti as well)
                          Shi Heng Fu
                          Shi de Jian
                          Shaolin Wuseng WenWu
                          plus Shi Yan Zhang in Beijing

                          Any advise on these (by anyone) would be welcomed.



                          I just did it again I wrote a novel. Sorry for giving you so much to read. I'm probably the most indecisive person on russbo.com.
                          yeh, dont worry about annoying anyone, im boss of that department
                          If it goes on like that you should fear for your position. lol
                          Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:21 PM.

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                          • #28
                            yea. De jian sounds really good. Apparently he leads a school in Songshan. Does anoyone have any idea on how to find him and/or his school?

                            Thx
                            Last edited by wogboy; 03-19-2019, 09:21 PM.

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                            • #29
                              nope no idea
                              "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                              • #30
                                I wont rekomand it because of earthquakes and i dont want u to take any risk with ur life, suicidal tendencies and i dont want spread risk, but there is wuwei si in Dali which is around 500 rmb a week. And in town, Ma shifu, i like him, teach bagua for a very small price

                                less risky may be yangshuo in Guangxi, but i dont know any teacher

                                or kome bodhgaya, i have met a very nice old korean monk (40 years old) who teach yoga and ma on donation basis

                                Gopal Swami teaches 2 hours yoga for 2 dollars
                                Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

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