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Shi YanZhang's School in China

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  • With all due respect it is your dream to learn traditonal shaolin. But you can't know what it is because you have never seen it. You sound like your more in love with the term traditional. As are many. Some poeple can't see that the fancy moves don't translate directly into fighting. They are just for training. Getting up at 6:30 and running, then stretching, then forms training 3 times a day after that, is very tradional. They are simply training wushu in a traditional way. Meaning doing the same move a thousand times everyday.

    I have trained with an older generation monk. The difference between tradional and wushu shaolin style is simply the stances aren't as low in traditional and there is more of a snake like looser power. And you always retract your strikes.
    Took me less than a month to convert to it.

    Either style is designed to train your physical attributes to the highest level. Most traditional schools only teach the form anyway.

    Now if you want real traditional where you get beat everyday with sticks on different parts of your body while standing on a bed of nails. Then be my guest. But that type of training isn't practical in this day and age.

    Also you want to acknowledge that wushu forms were made from tradional by a group of masters.

    I guess my point is you will see when you go to shaolin that wushu IS based on traditional with a focus on skills that aren't necessarily for fighting. But the forms are for building your mental endrurance. Like when your sitting in a stance for a long time before your sifu says go to the next move. In this modern age mental toughness is more practical anyway?

    If you want to be a feared effective fighter go to a sanshou or kickboxing school.

    If you want to preserve your body and be healthy both phsyically and mentally then shaolin is for you. Wether it be wushu or traditional.

    Also if you master wushu you could master tradional. I don't think I could honestly say that phrase the other way.

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    • Originally posted by mortal

      Now if you want real traditional where you get beat everyday with sticks on different parts of your body while standing on a bed of nails. Then be my guest. But that type of training isn't practical in this day and age.
      Let's not forget that it's also illegal and sort of kinky. Like German sex fetishes.
      Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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      • lolo. Good one.

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        • Mortal, gonna have to seriously disagree with you on this one. Love ya man, you're a great webbie, but, there's more to the traditional / wushu difference than what you've mentioned.

          Hand positions are most definitely different between the two, as are arm positions, and movement patterns. In fact, as time progresses, "wushu" jibengong, being taught at Shaolin, is becoming even more estranged from the "traditional" method that was being taught forty years ago. The difference, for example, between the ma bu dan bien that is being taught now, and what was taught ten, and, forty years ago plus, is incredible.

          I wrote about this somewhere, maybe in the FAQ of the site. I'm going to have to update it, as I've seen some dramatic changes in the way things are currently being taught, from the past ten years I've been observing it.

          But, your other points are well taken, and, as usual, you're still my hero. Especially after I saw the emails that you've been sending BL.

          She sent them to me.

          Wow.

          (Or was it LYF?) Maybe Shaolinstylee knows...
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)
          russbo.com


          Comment


          • Still trying to decypher it all....

            It has nearly caused hemmoraging.
            practice wu de

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            • haha, i missed out on all that. you bastards.

              ....on second thought, thank you. thank you all very much.

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              • Doc were you on that show American casino? I saw a guy that looks just like you.

                I guess my point is if you could get good at wushu traditional becomes way easier to learn. The movements aren't THAT much different. Or at least I don't think so. That is the reason Shi Yan Ming and many others teach that first.

                Also Lipeng told us that his style is from the older generation. He said that even HIS style isn't REALLY traditional. He said traditional training consisted mostly of Iron body training. Then 2 guys woulkd fight and take turns hitting each other until someone falls.

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                • That sounds like a drinking game. Only the hitting would be substituted with the drinking, of course.
                  Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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                  • I read some very interesting things here.Have a few questions:
                    -providing that you train hardly on stances and forms,acrobatics etc...Doesn't it make you a good fighter-i mean after all this hard training and after you get these physicall aptitudes it must be hard to get you tired,you get reflexes,strenght and balance,stretchability-as Mortal says healthy mind healthy body-aren't these prerogatives to fighting(in a defensive way and out of the ring)?

                    My poor experience from the ring showed me how limitated our knowlegde is(mine),and something is definitly missing in full contact ring fighting training.More and more i believe in Gong Fu as something higher,but so long to masterise that only a few determined crazy people will be able to assimilate it so deeply that fighting abilities would come out naturally.

                    Another question,out of topic i know but as i'm just starting with stances...Those who went-are-in Shaolin or area:How long are you asked to hold Ma BU(or other positions) as a standart time?I found it was really building some inside strenght but it is extremely difficult for me to hold it longer than 2 minutes-and i thought i had strong legs!!!!_\

                    Thank you
                    The East? The West?

                    Men and Women, that's all...

                    Comment


                    • Mortal, you're right. Training in modern stuff most definitely helps with the traditional. In fact, the modern stuff, though less complicated in its applications (if it has any applications at all; the currently taught ma bu dan bien has lost all the combat applications), can be a bit more diifficult because of its lower stances and more acrobatic type moves.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                      (more comments in my User Profile)
                      russbo.com


                      Comment


                      • Hey doc

                        I look forward to planning a trip down to Vegas. I love your politically incorrect shaolin humour. I want to show you why shaolin and wingchun mix so perfectly.
                        Judging by Steve I think you might already know this.
                        I have a friend who is going to be a master. He has the brains to push his physical skills to the limit. I am very critical of many peoples kungfu. But this guy shows the skill and drive to be somebody special in our little kungfu world. And he is still young at 22.

                        I want to bring him with me. He would be embarrassed if he knew I said that on here. He is very humble. But I think he deserves recognition since he has such a deep understanding of what we aspire to. And he has looked up to me as an inspiration when he started.

                        Look forward to meeting you one of these days. Just let me know when you will be in Vegas.

                        I appreciate the fact that you see my point on things. I knew you would.


                        Do you have any special offers for coming down. Like places to stay and such. Pm me if you want.

                        Anthony

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                        • Hmm, interesting. You know, the more i discuss this and the more i think about it, the more i understand the difference between two things: traditional Shaolin martial arts and traditional Shaolin GongFu.


                          I guess for many of us at this point, a debate on the difference between martial arts and gong fu is redundant. the two things are different, as we all know. So here's the deal. we appear to have a situation where shaolin gong fu is doing what it always has done- changed to suit the times. according to some, the whole thing started out as excercizes for health. then it became martial arts. then the monks literally became enlisted soldiers/military trainers. We're just seeing the next thing: performance art. What do all these have in common? you have to work your ass off to be good at them, which is in perfect keeping with the Ch'an tradition of mental discipline alongside physical discipline. the few posts before this touch on something very important here- the modern stuff is difficult- lower stances, high jumps, long forms. the faster you move, the more accurate your executions, the lower your stances, the higher you jump the better you get scored in competition.

                          What some of us are asking, when we talk about "traditional" stuff, is the question of what is going on with traditional Shaolin Martial Arts. This is something a little more tangible and defined, since it is one of several different gong fu's historically practiced in Shaolin. in my opinion, we are seeing the extinction of fighting and the birth of performance as the centerpeice of Shaolin gongfu. what do i personally think of it? I think, in a way its sad- but then, when you look at where this has gone, every new "in-thing" in shaolin could be met with a grain of salt. from doing nothing but meditation to suddenly caring about your health and the material body? from caring about that to learning to fight? from that, to being involved in politics and wars? from that to greedy, superficial fame and fortune? im sure you see where this is going. So you can see it two ways, i think-

                          Shaolin itself, as a buddhist monastary could be seen as having done one of two things: always been an exceptionally adaptive buddhist entity, changing to suit the social/political climate throughout its history. OR shaolin has been corrupt for a long time before the controversy over wushu, greed and fake monks. I personally feel the latter is true, but seeing as to how i am not a buddhist, this dosent bother me as much as it otherwise could. also, elements of the first obviously apply as well.
                          Shaolin as a martial art- again, thats soemthing more tangible that one can address with having to deal less with ambiguity and abstract attepts to flee logic. fighting systems, though Ch'an in nature, are obviously made to teach you how to fight. since historically we have seen that Shaolin has not always existed with martial arts, and apparently will exist without it in the fuftre, one can undoubtably treat Ch'an and martial arts as seperate entities at least for the purpose of content analysis. what's in a traditinal system? it takes knowing the system to know. but, one can ask themselves what is traditionally found in a fighting system? Hopefully, fighting techniques come to mind. but also, what makes an art unique- rather than the techniques- is the fashion in which the techniques are trained, and the concepts which are utilized for teaching.

                          if you are looking for one system that is the archaic blueprint of shaolin, and by that you mean a set with all the historically "correct" postures, forms, techniques, etc- you are wasting your time.

                          more martial arts have been influenced, processed, modified, and some probably even invented in and by Shaolin, than most people can probably imagine. pick a number. while i think the boddhidarma story is alrgely crap, the historical use of Shaolin temple(s) as training grounds is a little more credible. the thing is, it was a temple before that and it will, one way or another, be one after it.

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                          • Hei hu- you still in NYMFC?

                            I think Anthony hit on something- you always hear people talk down on wushu. I have seen some things...man, this one cat pulled off this kick, he spun around his hip like he was going to start doing a flip but the standing foot never left the ground, he just whipped that leg around...I mean you see some really fantastic physical shit in modern wushu.

                            Yet nobody ever thinks that a sponge like Shaolin gong fu could possibly recognize a better way to do something (like holding lower stances to gain better endurance and strength) might go the other way- to me wushu is not necessarily always derivative of what people are calling traditional.

                            I think sometimes, sometimes, things can swim downstream too...and it might even be beneficial.

                            As far ST itself, well...Yong Xin drove out most of the traditional, so with hunting and pecking you can find it thriving, but outside. Or maybe better to say inside, other 'temples.'
                            "Arhat, I am your father..."
                            -the Dark Lord Cod

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                            • Hey, so if my friend and i showed up in dengfeng a few weeks from now would we find an open door at Shi Decheng's or Shi Yanzhang's? Plus, how large is Dechang's school. I wonder if he teaches directly or are there other instructors for everyone. How much it costs is also on my mind. By the way, we WILL be there in 2 and a half weeks. Any murmur in respose is appreciated.

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                              • Dear xKungxFuxCuddle and Friend,

                                murmuring for Yan Zhang's school; the door is open and the welcome mat is out. More accurately, the iron gates are open and the red (perfomance) carpet will be out. Given they have a little warning when you are coming, the performance team normally performs to welcome international students.

                                The fees are 2,500 rmb per month which includes accommodation, food and tuition, that's roughly US$310 a month.

                                In order for everyone to prepare for your arrival, please forward your itinery details to Xia Dong at shaolinyinshi@sina.com, the more information you can provide regarding your expected length of stay, what you would like to study & acheive in the duration, your arrival details, any side trips you would like assistance with, etc. the more the school will be better able to meet your requirements & expectations.

                                The school currently has a performance team in Beijing. If you are flying into Beijing they can ensure that you get to Dengfeng without an adventure. Of course if you want the adventure, they can also give you out a telephone number, in the hope that you need a rescue mission ~ as you can probably figure Wusheng like rescue missions!

                                If you need anymore information or any further help with getting to Dengfeng please private message me, and I'll get back to you asap.

                                Best regards

                                Chicken

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