gong fu vs. wushu

[zachsan]

mortal -

hmm. your powers are impressive......

but do you totally rock?

- zach

[arhat]

I only fight when I have a soundtrack.

I need wild guitar solos and babes.

The only thing I would apply to this bill machette is a gun.

Standing up to it without one would be the height of stupidity.

[zachsan]

arhat - that's not true! i'm just like Li Mu Bai, and in the movie, we all saw him stop zhang ziyi's sword technique with nothing but a bamboo stick! and her sword was longer than that machete!! so while you may, i have nothing to fear from that petty weapon.

it's about time to make some reference to realultimatepower. anyone? anyone?

- zach

[doc]

I'll have to agree with you here, Arhat. Definitely would have to agree.

Even though you're a Clinton lover, lol.

[Tsingtao]

Anybody can easily break someones knee. It doesn't take much pressure to do damage. However if your fighting someone that is also skilled, its just as easy to defend. I don't know about you guys but as a martial artists myself I know there are certain things I need to protect on my body (knees being very important). Without them your done.

How many street fights or brawls have you seen that both people remain standing? It doesn't happen! In order to defend/protect yourself you need to be just as familiar with ground fighting as stand up. People don't stand around and exchange blows or wait to get kicked. Think about it..... Your both trying to hit each other so both bodies are moving towards each other naturally. The natural thing to do is clinch. You need to be able to work from the clinch and be able to move on the ground. Its very hard to kick FAST when someones got your limbs tied up and your off balance.

Whats the easiest way to defend againist a kicker?...................... Don't give him space. Take up his space. If he doesn't have space he can't get too much power in that kick. However beware of his knees....

Just my 2 cents.

[mortal]

tsingtao

Good post. I agree with almost everything. But, I don't think EVERY fight goes to the ground. None of my fights have gone to the ground. I'm not saying it can't happen. It is good to be prepared if you end up down there. I have been thinking about checking out a jujitsu class here in NY.

[zachsan]

you have very fanciful versions of what is and is not possible in the MA. sure leg breaks are possible, if you attack the knee, and the guy's leg is somehow previously braced so that you could do it (i.e. stretched across two chairs). but you don't just kick a standing guy from a standing position and break his leg, just like that. if either of you have done this before, i stand corrected, my apologies. and mortal, if you fight anyone with even a shred of real anger in them, no, you will not be able to dodge or block their blows all day. either you have not put this theory to the test, or you've tested it against someone who really didn't want to hit you (i mean desperately wanted not to hit you). this kind of overconfidence in one's abilities is the kind of danger that MA training presents to people that want unrealistic benefits from it.

tsingtao, you're right in that ground fighting would be an invaluable skill to possess in a fight. i also agree with mortal however, that not all fights necessarily end up on the ground.

on a side note, where did that come from? we're talking about gongfu. no gongfu that i am aware of teaches ground fighting as part of its curriculum.

- zach

[Sir Didymus]

I have been out for three days and already there has been 5 more pages to this forum. It took a while to read through it all. But now I can't remember the first ones I read. ba...

I read someone saying why do iron body training, cuz the point is not to get hit. That is the point. But you can't dodge around and block all day. You will come to someone who will be able to get you. At least once in your life. No matter how quick you are. So the iron body helps in emergency situations. When you don't have time to block. You can take the hit with and arm tight to your body or any. A tough body is better to have than a body not trained to take it. You've got to learn to take it if you're to be any good. Otherwise, what will you do when you get hit? Another reason for iron body training is for blocking. With your forearms tough like that when a kick or punch comes you can block it. That will damage the person kicking. And at least for the rest of the fight they won't be too ready to throw another kick. Just think about it. A tough forearm is like a strong pole. People kicking with full power are wanting to hit to the body or head, leg. Somewhere soft that it will hurt you. But a strong forearm, leg, fist will just crash it. Toes, shin, knee... They won't be kicking anymore.

And there are a lot of ground fighting techniques found in many styles of Chinese Gong Fu. Not just Shuai Jiao, wrestling. But what to do when you are on the ground. Top or bottom. Either side. A lot of different locks to do. A lot of ways to reverse the attacks. It can be done while laying on your back. It's used a lot in Shao Lin and Praying Mantis Gong Fu. You can even use your leg and arms together to choke someone out who is on top of you, while you are on your back. Example.. if you kick, say heel kick or something. And the opponent grabs your leg and kicks your other leg out so you fall on your back. Your leg will be up. They will be on top of you. You can put that leg around the back of their head. With one arm, push your forearm into their throat. With the other arm, grab your foot and pull it down squeezing their head off.

If you get into weird positions like that. Where normally you would think, "i'm f***ed", you can use a lot of things like that. Of course, there are a lot of different locks and counters, reversals while on the ground. That was just an interesting way to choke someone. So I thought I'd say it. And don't make a plan of that one. Only if you get in a position like that.

[arhat]

the only people I have ever seen go to the ground in fighting are cops subduing someone they are arresting. And people who have gotten knocked out. You can stop a tackle cold with a good knee or elbow.

I think "going to the ground" is one of the greatest martial arts fantasies out there. I heard one kid tell me once that 95% of all fights went to the ground. I was like, that is a stupid place to be in a fight. Just falling on the ground is dangerous much less bringing an opponent down there. You can't run away for instance.

[doc]

Yes, and there usually is more than one. Another reason, not to go to the gorund, lol.

[Sir Didymus]

Yeah. A lot fewer things can be done on the ground. I would think most people would prefer standing up and fighting. But there are those wrestling people. People who like that and train that way. I personally don't like people to touch me. I don't mean punch or kick. Of course I wouldn't like that. But I mean I don't like them touching me. Humans smell funny. Which is why I liked Bruce Lee's thing about intercepting the attack. And also people tell me kicks don't work all the time. And you can't kick someone in the head as fast as a punch. And the people would just grab the kick. So I say ok, I'll let you try. So I like to use the lead leg to hook kick people in the head or roundhouse. And when they run in I love the sidekick, back kick, or my fav, jump back kick.. So funny. I try to end most combos with a sidekick or back kick. As if to say, "get the f*** away". Funny. Have you ever noticed the effects of each different kick? My friend and I made names for them. When you kick someone in the chin with a heel kick or side kick, their head goes back and their whole body seems stiff. We call this one "rigor mortis". When you roundhouse someone in the side of the head, they kinda turn into a noodle. Their legs go weak. Which is why we call this one "the big wiggle". Try it next time. You have to kick them hard enough to get this reaction. But it's really funny. When you do it remember the names, "rigor mortis" and "the big wiggle". Watch them go stiff as a board or wiggle like a wet noodle. And laugh to yourself.

[Tsingtao]

"the only people I have ever seen go to the ground in fighting are cops subduing someone they are arresting."

Going to the ground....... It all depends how you look at it and the scenerio. I don't fight to kill someone..... so I would be fighting to subdule them.

"i also agree with mortal however, that not all fights necessarily end up on the ground."

I don't know where you guys are fighting but I gotta believe that all (most) fights end on the ground. Somebody ends up on the ground!!!!! I don't know about you but when I hit someone or take them down (in a 1 on 1 situation) I follow them so I can continue and my assault and subdue or submit them. I don't know how good you guys are but I doubt you guys are one punch wonders.

Just falling on the ground is dangerous much less bringing an opponent down there.

Your kidding me right..........Fighting is dangerous isn't? Your going to tell me your going to worry about some asphaut gravel in your knee or back? Thats what makes gound fighting fun.... One thing I've never really seen in all my kung fu training is learning how to fall properly in a real situation. Aside from some of the falling in some wushu/kung fu forms/movements.

I'm not saying you need to roll around on the ground and switch from position to position. That would be totally stupid. All I'm saying is most people are at a total loss once you take them off there feet. If you take them out of their element they freeze and don't know what to do. Thats why I believe cross training in different arts helps. Each art has it's own specialities/elements. I've trained in many (I should say a few) different stand up styles and ground styles. If someone takes me down I'm confident enough in my ground skills to protect myself and not assume the turtle or dead cock roach possition like most people naturally do. If you've never studied a ground style I would highly recommend you to go and dabble in it. It will change your fighting style. Try it sometime!

Yes, and there usually is more than one. Another reason, not to go to the gorund, lol.

Doc your absolutely right! However if there's more then one, chances are your the one thats going to be on your back, and if thats the case I would want to be able to move on the ground and protect myself the best i can. The more I can move the better chance I have to get up and away. Moving on the ground is an art in itself. Its very hard to move when someones got all their weight on you. However there are a lot of ways to use your opponents weight and energy to your advantage and gain the leverage you need.

on a side note, where did that come from? we're talking about gongfu. no gongfu that i am aware of teaches ground fighting as part of its curriculum

I don't know where it came from.... I guess my previous training and listening to you guys bicker back and forth about how fast people can kick and who can break who's leg or how your going to dance around your opponent is where it came from. I love training in Shaolin. It's truely where my heart lies, but it's definitely not whats going to save my ass in a fight. I'm not saying you won't learn to fight in Shaolin!!!!!! I'm just saying it wouldn't be my first choice if I wanted to learn to fight.

my 3 cents

[arhat]

I'm not kidding you.

OF COURSE fighting is dangerous. Why make it more so? Smart fighters reduce the odds of getting hurt any way they can. Only stupid fighters put themselves at greater risk. You're going to follow the guy down? Well, for example, if you followed me down, one of my friends is going to start kicking in your head, because they don't play fair, and they don't give a **** about the classic 'one on one.' That's why I don't really hang around with most of them anymore.

That's why i say going to the ground is predominently a fantasy produced by school yard tussles. But I feel that most martial arts training is for fantasy. Punch! Kick! Kiaaaaaaaaa!

Like all things ground fighting has it's place and should not be discounted but neither do I feel it should be relied on. God forbid the guy you take down has a box cutter.

Even cops swarm you to subdue, while you are on the ground.

I agree with you that I don't think the monks really train to be fighters anymore. Maybe long ago. There is an interesting picture that Uwe has up in his photo gallery that I am surprised never elicited much comment. To me, it is completely fascinating. It is of the Shaolin monks, on horse back, in army uniforms, with rifles.

I think that is telling.

[Tsingtao]

Arhat-

So what are you going to do when someone knocks you on your ass and your friends aren't around. You just said you don't hang with those guys much anymore.

Of course I'm going to follow you down. What am I going to do let you get back up and use that box cutter? I can control you more on the ground then standing. Now if your friends are around I need to rethink that. If I just knocked you on your ass your buddies are gonna jump me, If I follow you down your buddies are gonna jump me. What do I have to lose? At least if I kick your ass standing and on the ground your buddies might rethink wanting a piece of me, maybe not.

Of course you would have to adjust your fighting style to the environment and your opponent(s). No ones gonna let their buddy get the **** kicked out of them. Don't forget most martial artists hang around with other martial artists so theres a good chance the people your with will know how to defend themselves also and maybe let the fight go till it gets out of hand. We can go back and forth on this subject for days. I'm not saying that only ground fighters can kick ass. I'm just saying that its another aspect of fighting that a lot of people over look. Theres many aspects of fighting. The main two, from standing and on the ground. Until the last 10 years most people neglected the ground aspect and look what happened when the Gracies came to town. Everyone got there asses beat when they went 1 on 1. No one knew what to do. Now everyone whos serious about fighting teaches some kind of ground skills. Going to the ground is inevitable.

Now a days no one fights fair. This is the age of the gun.

But I feel that most martial arts training is for fantasy. Punch! Kick! Kiaaaaaaaaa!

I couldn't agree with you more however I'd still like to be as prepared as I can.

Tsing

[zachsan]

yes, shooting rifles from horseback, the epitome of modern martial science.

it's all a fantasy. everyone has advantages and disadvantages in a fight. MA training can be one of these advantages. a good weapon would be a much greater advantage than that; size might be almost as much of an advantage as years of MA training. and a huge element is straight-out luck, anyway.

your training should give you somewhat of an edge. but it's not gonna make you a superman. bones aren't gonna shatter with your every touch, you're gonna get hit in the face from time to time, there's no five-point-palm-exploding-heart technique (great movie btw), and everything still goes to **** if someone pulls a knife.

you can be a 99th dan karate master and get knocked out by a good, lucky punch. you can train in brazilian jiu-jitsu for 10 years and still get put into a sleeper hold by a skinny underage kid in a bar. so my point is, don't give up MA training, but don't buy into the movies, either.

and remember kids, whatever style you train in, it should make you totally rock...

- zach