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  • Shaolin Ma Bu Training

    Hi,

    What is Traditional Shaolin Ma Bu Training?
    I've seen many documentaries on the Shaolin Temple, they say
    they train for 30 minutes non-stop everyday. But if I do so, I'd be too sore for other kinds of training after. What's the proper way to train stances? Only with forms and Ji Ben Gong (Basic exercises)?
    I train with weights as well, and do different forms of training, how could I incorporate Ma Bu in my training schedule?

    Thanks a lot

    SD8
    =========
    Peace out!
    ....................

  • #2
    Beware the bullshit that you see on television. In all the time I've gone to Shaolin to train over the past ten years, I've yet to see any student stand there in ma bu for an hour. Granted, Decheng tells me that when he was a kid, when they actually trained under the old masters in the temple proper, they had to do it (and he states that he still can hold it for an hour). But, I've really yet to see it done in the schools.

    I've written about the usual daily training schedule, somewhere in the site. I think it was in the web site proper, where I talked about Xing Hong's school many years ago.

    Leg training does have stance training, no doubt. But upper leg training is probably more from the daily run in the morning than holding ma bu stances for an hour. Even when you see a student getting punished, it's usually standing up facing a wall.

    I've been involved in a few of these documentaries, of various sorts, and I can assure you, they show what they think they want to show, or, what the audience is expecting to see. You don't always see "reality".

    Your question brings up a good discussion however. The benefits of static versus dynamic muscle training. Interesting to see what people think about that.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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    • #3
      My instructor said he had to do ma bu every evening for half an hour.. not as bad as one hour but bad enough.. he also used to do lots of running. He made us all do lots of ma bu too but never that long, maybe 10 mins at a time at most - always good fun though!

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      • #4
        my sifu's (liu shuai meng 32nd generation shaolin monk) suggestion is do your ma bu in sets of three. start with 15 seconds if you've never done it before. do it 6 days a week. add 15 seconds every week.

        alternate days i do different kinds of ma bu. for hard leg training days i place my back against a wall and drop my thighs to just short of parralel to the ground. hands in hugging tree. this helps big time for leg strength and also with proper posture for ma bu.

        on days where i'm looking to chill i do it without the wall and drop so my kness don't pass toes.

        with either of these try end with a jump up! great fun!


        There are only 10 types of people in this world.
        Those that understand binary and those that don't.

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        • #5
          Leaning against the wall is, well, cheating.

          I do it.

          But it's very helpful, as renato mentions, in getting the proper posture. Which, ironically, is probably not the best position for your knees. Maintaining a low ma bu, with the knees flexed at 90 degrees, is not the best position for them to be carrying weight.

          The older generation monks used to keep ma bu at a higher, "more combat ready", level. It was probably healthier too. The newer, lower, ma bu that you currently see can be considered to be an offshoot of this wushu evolution.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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          • #6
            you can train mabu in several ways, standing post is good for building strength in the ligaments and as such you become more powerful the longer you can hold the stance, you also increase your endurance this way

            the reason they hold the stance for so long is to switch over from using the muscles of the leg to develope more lasting strength via the strength of the ligaments

            as for holding the stance verse other training methods, i wouldnt hold mabu longer then 15 minutes or so. the longer you hold it the slower you become. if you regularly hold it for a half hour to an hour your bones and joints at the waist become to stiff and your not as fast

            you will become more powerful for sure, but you can be just as powerful with other methods and you will be faster aswell

            and as for high vs low mabu. i strongly disagree with doc about a low mabu being a evolution of wushu or whatever. a low horse has been part of shaolin for a long time, for hundreds of years as far as we know atleast.

            the higher stances are more suited for combat for obvious reasons, but a low horse is needed at times for combat aswell..thats just how the techniques work sometimes

            the same can go for a low cat or bow or twisted step

            and a proper low horse should have no negative effect on the joints, none of the stances in shaolin should if your structure and weight distribution are correct.
            "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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            • #7
              Remember something. The ma bu stance, and the movement to get into it, has combat applications. This is especially obvious in some of the ji ben gong, where the ma bu stance is used. The leg sweeps and body throws are not effective, or possible, from a low, 90 degree knee bent ma bu that you currently see in modern wushu.

              And Maestro, the knees weren't designed to hold a lot of weight when they're flexed at 90 degrees. It causes a lot of stress on the cartilages, ligaments and tendons. It can also cause injury to the synovial capsule, the tearing of which can lead to things such as Baker's cysts. Recurrent stress on the menisci and cartilages in the knee, by placing inappropriate pressure on them via an improper weight load (loading an overly flexed knee) can lead to future arthritis.

              Be careful with your knees. They can injure easily, and the long term consequences can be quite impairing.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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              • #8
                i would say without hesitation the muscle/tendon/ligament part is very important to get.

                you shouldn't be having to muscle your way through your stance practice sets- maybe at first when you don't know better. but once everything sits right that's when you have your real power. I never noticed any delitrious effects on older masters who train lo ma bu. What we do is a combination- static to dynamic- hold the stance, then driving into gong bu, and back. then hold. Personally I hold lo ma bu a couple of minutes pretty much every day. As funny as it may sound I got one of those electric toothbrushes and it cycles I guess every 45 seconds for four cycles, so I use that to cycle through ma bu, gong bu, and pu bu, sometimes ding bu but that stance for some reason came very easy to me. Snowboarding I guess.

                as far as high/lo I think you need everything but the best benefits seem to come from training lo. if that is an effect of modern wushu as doc says I don't think it's a bad one.

                the days of ma bu punishment are probably over but it doesn't seem to be a question that it was in effect in the past. most of the monks I have been around have legs like prosciuttos, lol.
                "Arhat, I am your father..."
                -the Dark Lord Cod

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                • #9
                  "Remember something. The ma bu stance, and the movement to get into it, has combat applications. This is especially obvious in some of the ji ben gong, where the ma bu stance is used. The leg sweeps and body throws are not effective, or possible, from a low, 90 degree knee bent ma bu that you currently see in modern wushu."

                  doc, i dont know what ji ben gong is, we dont even say MABU we say sei ping ma, im just following suit. your correct though, many applications require a stance to change in elevation, but there are many throws and sweeps that require a low mabu, not only that, but for fighting in the clinch, a lower stance vs some opponents can help jam them and attack/control the direction of their footwork.

                  there are also several strikes which require a low "mabu" such as strikes to the dan tian ie an arrow fist, or a groin strike followed by a back fist..a very common technique in all martial arts

                  anyway, im just saying, my teachers and those before them have never had any ill effects from training a low MABU

                  infact many teachers from my system who lived and some who are still living 90+ years continue to train this way without negative effects.


                  but what arhat said about a low mabu being the best way to trai nthe stance...well i would have to disagree simply beceause in the low mabu stance you cant connect the lower and the upper parts of the body. what i mean is training a higher horse allows you to utilize more power in the ligaments to the point where it appears as if your knees curve inward somewhat.

                  im sure some of you are familiar with this
                  "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                  • #10
                    you cant throw someone with inward pointing knees.
                    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                    • #11
                      And though your center of gravity is low in a low ma bu stance, your abilty to counteract various vectored forces from different directions, is diminished. A higher stance can actually offer you more stability.
                      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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                      • #12
                        lolo here we go...

                        "you cant throw someone with inward pointing knees"

                        yea, you can. regardless you obviously do not know what im talking about in refference to this method which shows your true level

                        "And though your center of gravity is low in a low ma bu stance, your abilty to counteract various vectored forces from different directions, is diminished. A higher stance can actually offer you more stability."

                        doc i agree lolo, im not trying to glamorize a low horse, i know all of these things, your right about stability but about counteracting "various vectored forces from different directions" id like to know some examples on that one.

                        of course no stance is without a weakpoint, high or low. so what exactly are you getting at? that a low horse can leave you vulnerable at times? if this is so, the same is absolutely true for a high horse
                        "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

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                        • #13
                          maestro,

                          once again you are annoying the hell out of me.

                          first of all, you dont conciously fight from any stance, it is the stance training that internalizes the way you're body moves and reacts in a fight.

                          training in a high ma bu stance is not as beneficial as training a low horse stance, unless you are on your toes. a low horse stance trains the power in the muscles, and the issue/release of power from the position that you are in, therefore, if you train in a low mabu stance, you will have more power in throw type techniques such as ippon seonage or legwheels,

                          a high stance is more used fore the training of balance and is used when standing on a post, although a high stance will not work for one who has not trained his low stance properly.

                          my master told me that you are not doing the stance correctly unless you feel the muscles burning in your legs.

                          and my judo teacher ( trained by the judo legend kyuzo mifune) demonstrated very clearly that you cannot execute any throw with inward pointing knees, if you are throwing to the left, your left foot must be pointing outward. you CANNOT pivot on an inward pointing knee, go ahead and feel free to try though, screw your knee up while your at it.

                          tell me maestro, what throws do you know that employ a pidgeon toed stance? for styles like wing chun and hung gar which fight with more of a frontal approach, a pidgeon toed (triangle ) stance may be useful, but for arts like judo, its not very useful, and i know that you know nothing about judo.

                          watch what you say, because when you talk too much, you may reveal too much about yourself, and in this case, you revealed that you are an idiot.


                          schooled.
                          "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

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                          • #14
                            "schooled"

                            Now that's a new one. Kind of like "p'owned"? Need a new forum area for a dictionary.

                            Funny you should mention wing chun. I remember doing some wing chun training years ago; I could never understand the "hips forward, toes pointing together, knees bent" stance that they train in. Not sure I understand the reasoning behind it training wise either. I'm open for further enlightment here.

                            Gotta agree with your commentary. I don't want to belabor this "low mabu stance" concept, but, it seems that this evolution of modern wushu has lowered the stance to occasionally, ridiculous levels. As it has been explained to me, they're lowering the stances, raising the kicks, and extending the limbs in order to be more "impressive" in their competitions. It's not done to improve their training, it's done to "look better". And the depths that these guys are bringing their ma bu and other stances to, are amazing. I've seen some of these guys get into a ma bu with their knees flexed at 80 degrees, and less! That's a little bit more exaggerated than a "low ma bu". And, overstretching the muscle to that degree, actually leads to less muscle performance strengthwise.
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


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                            • #15
                              taking a dump ma bu is no good, unless you are over a hole and readin newspaper.
                              "Arhat, I am your father..."
                              -the Dark Lord Cod

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