Is it wrong to add forms..

[LeiYunFat]

You can make up your own forms, but you ought not to go around saying it's part of your style. Especially if you're not a master or whatever. Misrepresentation, you see. It's almost like copyright infringement.

[Lung Pao]

Is it wrong to make up your own form and add it to your style?

[dogchow108]

that's why forms are forms and fighting is fighting.

isnt it amazing how hard that is for people to get?

[Maestro]

thats right arhat. forms are forms and fighting is fighting. but my sifu and all real masters dont say when u master yourself u can master all forms. thats not what is being said. if u master control over yourself you can master ANY style, not only is this a huge advantage in combat but it is also a advantage to you as a martial artist, espcially if u wish to broaden your horizons and knowledge of chinese arts or most any art ingeneral..ill say save vs grappling which has little to do with chinese arts save maybe some qin na or shui chiao.

[arhat]

that's why forms are forms and fighting is fighting.

[Maestro]

u could say pure tiger style doesnt have alot of kicks or..any kicks at all. i mean, theres the tiger tail kick but i dunno if thats actually classified as tiger style. i do know that my style is famous for being the "tiger and crane" style probably because of fu hok seung ying kuen but regardless when i started training with my sifu right off the bat i learned innner and outer crescent. front snap, tornado kick(one of my favorites just cause its fun) and sweeps.

[tetsumaru]

[QUOTE=Maestro]

Ok sorry I got it twisted...
Thanks for clearing it up. I can absolutely agree with that.

So back to talking about making up forms and adding forms...

I am recently learning a Tiger kicking "drill"...I dont know for sure but i guess tiger style doesnt have a lot of kicks...Also tiger style is a very strong style...in terms of force...anyway this form was created by tiger stylists to compensate for their lack of flexibility (well compared to northern styles like long fist...) as well as their lack of kick variety...The form contains bits of mizhong, di tong, long fist, crane, and some others. Its pretty interesting and absolutely ridiculous....seriously 540 double crescent kicks....but the form is designed to loosen up the stiffness in areas where tiger stylists were stiff or inflexible (legs, back, torso...) so there are apps here and there but the form seems more for flexibility and being less forceful and more graceful.

So adding forms does occur but as maestro said "if your going to add forms to your style, u better be as good as you think u are to learn *(or create one)* a form and add it to the curriculum."

[Maestro]

"Sorry i'll read it again but i think i missed the part where it explains how you can understand everything about a form by just seeing it once."

ok, im sorry to, but when did i say i can understand everything about a form by seeing it once?

are u reffering to when i said;

"i have yet to see a form anymore to not instantly realise the meaning, the application, the strengths and weaknesses."

if so, this is not the same as what you are reffering to. for example ill pick that sentence apart for you.

like most styles of martial arts that teach patterns, often times, a form will have its own flavor and meaning, which means it is made to teach you a certain way of moving or attacking/defending or whatever. discerning applications is for the most part easy if youve mastered control over your body and yourself, which is what my sifu was trying to convey in that article. as for discerning the strengths and weaknesses of a form that is also quite easy, considering as martial artists this is a crucial factor to winning a fight against an opponent who is for the most part unknown to us, unless we are professional fighters and are aware of our enemys strengths and weaknesses.

like my sifu says "Still don't see the significance of this? It means that when you have mastery over yourself, ( and that is to sifu very basic) it doesn't matter what style you do. You will always do it right. Only when you understand this, do you begin to look at things the way the masters do."


this is the sole reason for the saying "in a room full of masters, all agree".

it is probably also the reason why wing lam keeps such good company amongst martial artists like chen xiao wang, leung ting etc once u get to a certain level there is nothing to discuss or debate other then actually get down and touch hands.

anyway, as for "seeing a form once and knowing everything about it" i dont think that is possible, but my sifu did also say, that you should be able to watch a form once and duplicate it, and not only that but with speed power bla bla

this infact is an ability sifus sigung 96 yr old hung ga master lam cho was born with and was capable of since being a child. some people are fortunate in that sense, but regardless. after mastering control over they body or "taming the tiger" as would be said in shaolin, you shouldnt have trouble with any style or system, you should be able to duplicate any technique

i also infact have a interview with rza and shi yan ming where rza is sitting next to yan ming and quotes him as saying "if u master yourself you can master any style"

so u know take yan mings words for what they are..hes just reiterating what ALL real masters say ANYWAY.

[tetsumaru]

ok thanks for the article but are you sure thats the right one? I sort of understood what the article was talking about. It read like one of your posts. I could tell he was trying to say something but it didnt quite come out. But the article does highlight (there is another word i want to use there but i cant think of it) the importance of having a teacher present to help you as you grow as a martial artist. Sorry i'll read it again but i think i missed the part where it explains how you can understand everything about a form by just seeing it once.

[Maestro]

"but I understand what you are saying when you say you see a form and can see the apps and so forth right away...but thats from your point of view as a hung ga practioner"

u dont understand what i mean, and it has nothing to do with my pov as a hung ga practitioner.

u need to really just be quiet and try and read what i say because all you people do is seem to agree with either half of what i say and disagree with whatever u feel is inappropriate when im makeing the same point the whole time, theres no 2 ways about what i say, so when u say such things to me its obvious you people really DONT understand what im talking about

http://www.wle.com/resources/art018.html

read my sifus article, he says it better then i can.

[tetsumaru]

I wasnt trying to dig into you...maybe just little bit...but I understand what you are saying when you say you see a form and can see the apps and so forth right away...but thats from your point of view as a hung ga practioner...I might see it a different way...(I just watched Tom yum goong and if you watch the "form" he does in the beginning and when he's fighting at the end he using all the apps from the form...i thought that was kind of cool...but i saw that and understood what he was doing and i dont even practice muay thai or whatever he was doing in that movie)...but back to the whole idea of learning forms from videos...yeah its fun but you cant really get anything of substance from doing so...yeah you can look at a form and see the apps and perhaps the energy but when you have a knowledgable teacher explaining the details to you the picture becomes much clearer...

I also agree with you maestro here
"is it wrong to add forms to your style? the answer is no it isnt wrong. but if your going to add forms to your style, u better be as good as you think u are to learn a form and add it to the curriculum."

however some of us know this doesnt always happen...some karotty or tae kwon do whitey tries to expand his curriculum by adding "Kung-fu" or "Ninjitsu" by going off and buying some videos and "learning" from them. While its great he tries to learn something new it just wrong that he's tring to pass it off as authentic or like he learned it directly from so and so teacher.

[Maestro]

of course youd agree with doc, u dont know anything. im not saying you can watch a video and all of a sudden be the master. but of course that is what you got out of it.

if u dont even understand what im talking about its pointless continueing, and u obviously dont have a clue.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

and if you watch it enough times and or do it enough times, you may just pick up a few insights that'll help you out anyway.
May not do alot for your 'form' performance .. but .. your gongfu performance could be entirely different. Just the fact your moving ... and in different ways..

[tetsumaru]

"i have yet to see a form anymore to not instantly realise the meaning, the application, the strengths and weaknesses." - maestro

I am awestruck at your preceptual abilities...
OK i realize you are probably stretching the truth but i can sort of understand what you mean maestro...but seriously if you truely understand them once you see them then you must be grandmaster sifu sensei.

I agree with doc...

You are nothing more than a monkey mimicking movements of another monkey by watching the videos and "learning" them. It takes a few steps in the evolutionary process to begin to understand what you are doing.

Practice a form 1000 times and you'll have memorized the movements but without the proper insight and teaching you are just a silly monkey (seriously watch the whole thing...you enjoy it)

[Maestro]

well, i wasnt talking about learning it from a video..i was talking about learning a form ingeneral from another system or something and adding it to the system

but, i do disagree with you doc. because, even though you may feel there are things that are to "intricate" about moves and their applications, i have yet to see a form anymore to not instantly realise the meaning, the application, the strengths and weaknesses.

like my first sifu said, once you understand yourself, and master control over your body understanding of the arts will hit you like a flood. before, i used to see things differently, when someone would demo a form, mantis whatever, i would see things literally differently.

now all i see are similaritys

think about that.