Sal Canzonieri, would you be so kind answering these questions?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Hey Sal,

You talk a lot about all the books and vcd's that you have. I'm a little jealous, those things aren't the easiest to come across. Do you know any good places to buy any of these, or do you just have to go to the source ?

For example, I'm most interested in having a look at the Tagou manual, as well as Shi Deqian's encyclopedias (especially this last one with actual pictures). But do you know anywhere I could come across these without actually going to Tagou or Deqian ? Any good sites on the net ? You also have talked a lot about the vcd's you've come across. I realize you've been collecting them for some time, but would you know were some of the good ones you have come across are still available ? It can be hard to find the jewels among the wealth of shit out there and you have the upper hand here !

If you could point me in the right direction that would be great! I'm sure there's a few other viewers on here that would find this info valuable as well.

Thanks.
Travis

PS: Thanks for sharing your brain and all the info in it with us here. It's really a blessing to have guys like you and Uwe on here sharing the work you've spent years of your life unraveling. I appreciate it more than you guys know !!!

Well, you could do what I did, since 1975, besides actually learn CMA, go to the Chinatowns of not only every major city in the usa, but also other countries.
Then buy every chinese manual that was any good.
Then spend more than 20 years meeting the oldest people I could find, now long dead, and accumulating boxes of video tapes, family styles, and so on, and paper notes and files on CMAs styles and history. The problem is that these people entrusted me with stuff they didn't give their own students, because none of them were interested in CMA history or the history of their own styles, so rather than the stuff being gone for good, they gave them to me (copies). I have super rare tapes of families doing their martial arts, old tapes transferred from 8mm film, notes, "lyrics" for forms movements and postures, tons of rare books no longer in print, etc. Not bragging, just explaining. I work with many hundreds of Chinese people and they have been relatives of people that got me inside info or they have translated data into english for me. I belonged to a KF club that had many people passing through that exchanged some of their forms for other owns and also background info on their styles. Being at the right place at the right time (hard work in other words) is what it is all about.

I doubt someone can do that to this extent right now in this day and age, most of that old stuff is long out of print and many people are long dead.

If you want my recommendations on where you can get old Chinese martial arts manuals and vcds, then go here, they have many of the material that I have accumulated:

http://www.plumpub.com/

and more vcds at http://www.cmaod.com/

I order my books direct from Shi De Qian, you can get all the Shaolin stuff you want from him that way.
This website does the ordering for you: http://www.earthworks.com/
Go to that page and scroll to the Shaolin Encyclopedia area.
They have both versions, the 4 volume set and the new 2 volume set with photos.
I have the old versions of them too that are out of print.

They are fast and reliable, its not too expensive either, the cheapest place to get them from since they come direct. When I ordered the new version with photos, I paid via paypal and in 5 days I had the books at home already!!!!

And the Tagou manuals, I got them from www.wle.com

Sal

[baiwanxi]

Hey Sal,

You talk a lot about all the books and vcd's that you have. I'm a little jealous, those things aren't the easiest to come across. Do you know any good places to buy any of these, or do you just have to go to the source ?

For example, I'm most interested in having a look at the Tagou manual, as well as Shi Deqian's encyclopedias (especially this last one with actual pictures). But do you know anywhere I could come across these without actually going to Tagou or Deqian ? Any good sites on the net ? You also have talked a lot about the vcd's you've come across. I realize you've been collecting them for some time, but would you know were some of the good ones you have come across are still available ? It can be hard to find the jewels among the wealth of shit out there and you have the upper hand here !

If you could point me in the right direction that would be great! I'm sure there's a few other viewers on here that would find this info valuable as well.

Thanks.
Travis

PS: Thanks for sharing your brain and all the info in it with us here. It's really a blessing to have guys like you and Uwe on here sharing the work you've spent years of your life unraveling. I appreciate it more than you guys know !!!

[Sal Canzonieri]

Gee, where do I start! You're asking all the questions everyone who has been studying this topic wants to know!
Well, yes I am completely obsessed with Chinese MA history and practicing it.
(didnt cost me any girlfriends, it helped attract them actually)

First, yeah that Australian site ripped off some of my text and it also has a load of garbage that is all wrong on their site, so ignore that site, too bad that stupid google puts that site first, it's a false info site.


yes, you can use what you want and translate it, long as I am credited and the website address is given (which will change once it becomes part of Russbo.com soon).

Here's the deal with the Shaolin sets, the ancient ones:

there was first the nei gongs that they practiced, before the Tang dynasty, such as Dragon Tiger, 6 Harmony, Chan Yuan, Luohan 13 gongs, and Rou Gong.
Also, the Xin Yi Ba was practiced too, based on the movements of farming and local wild and farm animals. It is really 144 sets long, not the appreviated version seen in the the Shaolin Encyclopedias.

Eventually, these were turned into the Rou Quan forms, there are 3, one is 36 postures, and one is 108 postures. No one has seen the other one outside of China.
Rou Quan oddly enough is actually Tong Bei ape and double sword movements, they are identical.
By Song dynasty, Rou Quan influenced the development of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets.
yes, they keep these secret, and yes that version of the set seen in that video in your link is the correct broken rhythm version, amazingly enough.
It's up to your applications needed at the time to decide what to do soft or hard or fast or slow. Breathe out when striking, breathe in when parrying.
Eventually these sets led to the Xiao Hong Quan and Lao Hong Quan sets. Later the Da Hong Quan sets came out, they apply different ideas than the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan sets.
Not too long after the Tong Bei sets and the Pao Chui sets were developed, these sets are mixtures of monkey boxing, xiao hong quan, and da hong quan, and also the pao chui sets have the Xin yi ba movements hidden in them. They won't tell you which moves they are. You have to mediate on that when doing them and they will become apparent.
All these sets: Rou Quan, Xin Yi Ba, Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, Tong Bei Quan, and Pao Chui are all part of one system. Luohan is another system, with different ideas behind it.
All the other sets done as Shaolin are from the Qing dynasty era, so are modern compared to all these ancient sets.

yes, Shaolin, which is to say, all the people like Shi De Qian, all the people who were students of his teachers, are keeping the other Tai Tzu sets secret, why I don't know, but they do know them, they were expert in tai tzu quan first actually before their deeper shaolin training. Also they closely guard the Xin Yi Ba and Rou Quan sets. yes, pages 112 & 113 are the 3 TZ sets. No, there is no where that they are shown that you can purchase.

The only way to tell you which moves are slow or fast or hard or soft is to teach you, so if you want to take lessons from me, I've been doing CMA since 1975, and teach in NYC and NJ.

Not only is Chen Yi Lu made from Tai Tzu yi lu, but Yang tai chi is just stuff from Xiao Hong Quan and Rou Quan, I can show you move by move. Also, Wu style has elements from Rou Quan, I can show you that too.

Lao Hong Quan and other Hong Quan sets were used to create Yin Fu Ba Qua 63 palms. I can show you that too.
I can show you what sets from Luohan were used to develop Cheng Ting Hua Ba Gua as well.

the second road of Xiao Hong Quan was developed during the Qing Dynasty, to bring more kicks into the Hong Quan system, now it is incorporated into Yin Fu Ba Gua as well. Move by move.

Those pages (113 & 114) that mention the Rou Quan are a second version of Rou Quan, developed in Qing dynasty that is part original rou quan and part luohan quan. The original ROu Quan is very different. I know these original sets.

That Tai Ji is called Chan Tai Ji, it was developed by a woman and her students in the Qing dynasty from Wudang tai ji and other stuff. It is not ancient stuff.
That 18 Luohan Palm set in the back of the book is from Qing dynasty too.

Yes, those Rou Quan sets at Plum are some of the original Rou Quan sets, taught by a great teacher who is part of Shi De Qian's lineage. They purposely do stuff incorrect on those vcds, you have to be shown where.

Chang Hu XinYi Men Quan is a Qing dynasty set, it's okay. Based on the old stuff, but I'd rather do the old stuff.

Great Power sets in Tagou books? That's just the Pau Chui and Pao Quan sets. Nothing mysterious.
The Pao Chui sets I already talked about in the previous paragraphs. They are important sets, and pre-Qing dynasty.

I'll make a list of the best Shaolin books and videos that are out there, I have all of them that exist. Most stink, but there are a few good ones. I don't know if the good ones are still available, I got them in the 70s and 80s. I have an ancient book on Shaolin TZ CHang Quan yi lu, that has to old song dynasty chinese characters for the moves, some of the characters are so rare that I had to get a bunch of different translators to work them out.

I will do that another day, right now it would take too long.

Search through this site, I made a post of a giant list comparing all the Luohan sets that are in books and videos with each other, which are wrong, etc.

thanks!!!!

[Carona]

Hi Sal,

First of all I must say I am really impressed with the historical articles you have on your site at http://www.naturalcma.bgtent.com. (hope that counts as another link for the google ranking). Damn, you must have spent a whole lot of time on those articles and I can imagine that you might even have lost one or two girlfriends over obsessing on Gongfu, haha.

I'd like to ask permision to use some of the information in your articles to provide background information on history and forms for some 20 or 30 students. I just translate some stuff to Spanish and write a few pages on the styles we train and give them to the students.
It's not like I'll publish it in book form, but still I feel I should ask permision out of respect for your hard work.

By the way I found some striking resemblances between some of your articles on an australian website http://www.shaolin.com.au/history.htm, but it doesn't credit you for it. They ask consulting them before using any material on their website, so guess they themselves could have given you some credit. Don`t know if you mind or not.

Over the last year I´ve been digging into some martial arts history myself and it is so complex that there were a lot of things that had me puzzled. The more I read your stuff, the more answers I got, but a whole new bunch of questions came bubbling up. So I'll ask some of them and hope you find the time to answer.

I compared Yilu Taiji Chen from Chen Shitong lineage I practice with Shaolin Taizu Chang using your article and I see what your saying. It was real fun comparing all the moves and finding how they really are the same even though yilu chen form takes me like 10 times the amount of time it takes to do taizu chang to complete. I have always thought gongfu and taiji are basically the same thing and now it seems your investigation backs this up. I already practice Xiao Hong Quan in a taiji manner one day and a harder way another.

• what is the story about Shaolin keeping the 2nd and 3rd of Tai Zu road secret? Is there maybe a family style that teaches all 3 roads or do we really have to wait till Shaolin opens up. Is there any good material that documents these forms, books, video, vcd's...? I know Taizu is not mentioned in latest volume of Shi Deqian`s book. At page 112 and 113 there are 3 Chang Quan forms in text only. Are these the Taizu forms? I started learning chinese a few months ago but my skills are nowhere near to being able to read DeQian's Encyclopedia. The Tagou books have the first road only.

• Could you tell me which moves in Yilu Taizu are supposed to be slow and soft and which are supposed to be fast and hard? It would be fantastic if you could include this in the article. Is the way it is done here in national geographic documentary at 4:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvig13hDWs a good way to go?

• What's the story on the second road of Xiao Hong Quan? I`ve never seen this performed by anyone. Is it supposed to follow the first road or is it a separate form?

• There is a lot of historical information on Rou Quan in your articles but these forms also seem to be kept inside Shaolin. De Qian mentions 3 flexible fists on page 113, 114. Are these the rou quan routines? I believe the first one is pictured with drawings on page 870. There is also a General tai Ji form with drawings on page 876. Then there is the arhat 18 palm form on page 1016 with drawings that at least in the drawing has a taiji feel to it, stepping with the heel first,... etc.

Are any of these forms the Rou Quan you talk about? Care to comment on them? Any documentation, books, videos, vcds,... ? I came upon these http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin2.htm Do you know if they are actually Rou Gong or Rou Quan or are these just some recently made up forms to sell vcds?

• Xin Yi Ba: Another mystery it seems. no material to be found except for youtube videos of dejian and the small drawings on page 961 of Deqian books that says Xin Yi Ba. The encyclopedia also lists at page 197 Shaolin Xin Yi Quan, and at page 374 Xin Yi Chang Quan. Are any of these the real Xin Yi Ba? Has Chang Hu XinYi Men Quan anything to do with this or not? Any material to be found? again articles, books, video...etc.

• Any idea where to find a complete version of the shaolin wuxing bafa Quan?

• Do you know Shaolin Big power form (Da Li or maybe Da Li Gong???)? I learned this a few years ago from a monk ank recognized it later when I bought thee Tagou handbook vol 1 on page 308. There's also a small much larger power form (Xiao Li???) listed which I haven't learned. I've never seen them performed by anyone else and Shi DeQian doesn't seem to list them Do you know the chinese name and some background on this style? Or is this a modern invention?

And finally if you find the time could you provide some sort of list of best documentation in the form of books, vcds with traditional performances (non wushufied) and where to purchase them on the most important styles of Shaolin? I thought you probably already have collected them throughout the years and could spare the rest of us gongfu history freaks a lot of time searching for the good stuff. I was thinking xiao hong, da hong, tongbei, qi xing, tai zu, chaoyang, mei hua, lohan, rou, liu he, pao, maybe some animal styles and weapon forms.... or whatever you find important styles and forms.


I wish I could provide you with some useful information in return but I guess you just know so much more than I do. Asking so much at once make me feel a bit guilty, so if i can return a favor, just ask.

Thanks a lot