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  • Sal Canzonieri, would you be so kind answering these questions?

    Hi Sal,

    First of all I must say I am really impressed with the historical articles you have on your site at http://www.naturalcma.bgtent.com. (hope that counts as another link for the google ranking). Damn, you must have spent a whole lot of time on those articles and I can imagine that you might even have lost one or two girlfriends over obsessing on Gongfu, haha.

    I'd like to ask permision to use some of the information in your articles to provide background information on history and forms for some 20 or 30 students. I just translate some stuff to Spanish and write a few pages on the styles we train and give them to the students.
    It's not like I'll publish it in book form, but still I feel I should ask permision out of respect for your hard work.

    By the way I found some striking resemblances between some of your articles on an australian website http://www.shaolin.com.au/history.htm, but it doesn't credit you for it. They ask consulting them before using any material on their website, so guess they themselves could have given you some credit. Don`t know if you mind or not.

    Over the last year I´ve been digging into some martial arts history myself and it is so complex that there were a lot of things that had me puzzled. The more I read your stuff, the more answers I got, but a whole new bunch of questions came bubbling up. So I'll ask some of them and hope you find the time to answer.

    I compared Yilu Taiji Chen from Chen Shitong lineage I practice with Shaolin Taizu Chang using your article and I see what your saying. It was real fun comparing all the moves and finding how they really are the same even though yilu chen form takes me like 10 times the amount of time it takes to do taizu chang to complete. I have always thought gongfu and taiji are basically the same thing and now it seems your investigation backs this up. I already practice Xiao Hong Quan in a taiji manner one day and a harder way another.
    • what is the story about Shaolin keeping the 2nd and 3rd of Tai Zu road secret? Is there maybe a family style that teaches all 3 roads or do we really have to wait till Shaolin opens up. Is there any good material that documents these forms, books, video, vcd's...? I know Taizu is not mentioned in latest volume of Shi Deqian`s book. At page 112 and 113 there are 3 Chang Quan forms in text only. Are these the Taizu forms? I started learning chinese a few months ago but my skills are nowhere near to being able to read DeQian's Encyclopedia. The Tagou books have the first road only.
    • Could you tell me which moves in Yilu Taizu are supposed to be slow and soft and which are supposed to be fast and hard? It would be fantastic if you could include this in the article. Is the way it is done here in national geographic documentary at 4:15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYvig13hDWs a good way to go?
    • What's the story on the second road of Xiao Hong Quan? I`ve never seen this performed by anyone. Is it supposed to follow the first road or is it a separate form?
    • There is a lot of historical information on Rou Quan in your articles but these forms also seem to be kept inside Shaolin. De Qian mentions 3 flexible fists on page 113, 114. Are these the rou quan routines? I believe the first one is pictured with drawings on page 870. There is also a General tai Ji form with drawings on page 876. Then there is the arhat 18 palm form on page 1016 with drawings that at least in the drawing has a taiji feel to it, stepping with the heel first,... etc.
    Are any of these forms the Rou Quan you talk about? Care to comment on them? Any documentation, books, videos, vcds,... ? I came upon these http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd2/coll_shaolin2.htm Do you know if they are actually Rou Gong or Rou Quan or are these just some recently made up forms to sell vcds?
    • Xin Yi Ba: Another mystery it seems. no material to be found except for youtube videos of dejian and the small drawings on page 961 of Deqian books that says Xin Yi Ba. The encyclopedia also lists at page 197 Shaolin Xin Yi Quan, and at page 374 Xin Yi Chang Quan. Are any of these the real Xin Yi Ba? Has Chang Hu XinYi Men Quan anything to do with this or not? Any material to be found? again articles, books, video...etc.
    • Any idea where to find a complete version of the shaolin wuxing bafa Quan?
    • Do you know Shaolin Big power form (Da Li or maybe Da Li Gong???)? I learned this a few years ago from a monk ank recognized it later when I bought thee Tagou handbook vol 1 on page 308. There's also a small much larger power form (Xiao Li???) listed which I haven't learned. I've never seen them performed by anyone else and Shi DeQian doesn't seem to list them Do you know the chinese name and some background on this style? Or is this a modern invention?
    And finally if you find the time could you provide some sort of list of best documentation in the form of books, vcds with traditional performances (non wushufied) and where to purchase them on the most important styles of Shaolin? I thought you probably already have collected them throughout the years and could spare the rest of us gongfu history freaks a lot of time searching for the good stuff. I was thinking xiao hong, da hong, tongbei, qi xing, tai zu, chaoyang, mei hua, lohan, rou, liu he, pao, maybe some animal styles and weapon forms.... or whatever you find important styles and forms.


    I wish I could provide you with some useful information in return but I guess you just know so much more than I do. Asking so much at once make me feel a bit guilty, so if i can return a favor, just ask.

    Thanks a lot

  • #2
    Gee, where do I start! You're asking all the questions everyone who has been studying this topic wants to know!
    Well, yes I am completely obsessed with Chinese MA history and practicing it.
    (didnt cost me any girlfriends, it helped attract them actually)

    First, yeah that Australian site ripped off some of my text and it also has a load of garbage that is all wrong on their site, so ignore that site, too bad that stupid google puts that site first, it's a false info site.


    yes, you can use what you want and translate it, long as I am credited and the website address is given (which will change once it becomes part of Russbo.com soon).

    Here's the deal with the Shaolin sets, the ancient ones:

    there was first the nei gongs that they practiced, before the Tang dynasty, such as Dragon Tiger, 6 Harmony, Chan Yuan, Luohan 13 gongs, and Rou Gong.
    Also, the Xin Yi Ba was practiced too, based on the movements of farming and local wild and farm animals. It is really 144 sets long, not the appreviated version seen in the the Shaolin Encyclopedias.

    Eventually, these were turned into the Rou Quan forms, there are 3, one is 36 postures, and one is 108 postures. No one has seen the other one outside of China.
    Rou Quan oddly enough is actually Tong Bei ape and double sword movements, they are identical.
    By Song dynasty, Rou Quan influenced the development of Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan sets.
    yes, they keep these secret, and yes that version of the set seen in that video in your link is the correct broken rhythm version, amazingly enough.
    It's up to your applications needed at the time to decide what to do soft or hard or fast or slow. Breathe out when striking, breathe in when parrying.
    Eventually these sets led to the Xiao Hong Quan and Lao Hong Quan sets. Later the Da Hong Quan sets came out, they apply different ideas than the Xiao and Lao Hong Quan sets.
    Not too long after the Tong Bei sets and the Pao Chui sets were developed, these sets are mixtures of monkey boxing, xiao hong quan, and da hong quan, and also the pao chui sets have the Xin yi ba movements hidden in them. They won't tell you which moves they are. You have to mediate on that when doing them and they will become apparent.
    All these sets: Rou Quan, Xin Yi Ba, Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Quan, Xiao Hong Quan, Lao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, Tong Bei Quan, and Pao Chui are all part of one system. Luohan is another system, with different ideas behind it.
    All the other sets done as Shaolin are from the Qing dynasty era, so are modern compared to all these ancient sets.

    yes, Shaolin, which is to say, all the people like Shi De Qian, all the people who were students of his teachers, are keeping the other Tai Tzu sets secret, why I don't know, but they do know them, they were expert in tai tzu quan first actually before their deeper shaolin training. Also they closely guard the Xin Yi Ba and Rou Quan sets. yes, pages 112 & 113 are the 3 TZ sets. No, there is no where that they are shown that you can purchase.

    The only way to tell you which moves are slow or fast or hard or soft is to teach you, so if you want to take lessons from me, I've been doing CMA since 1975, and teach in NYC and NJ.

    Not only is Chen Yi Lu made from Tai Tzu yi lu, but Yang tai chi is just stuff from Xiao Hong Quan and Rou Quan, I can show you move by move. Also, Wu style has elements from Rou Quan, I can show you that too.

    Lao Hong Quan and other Hong Quan sets were used to create Yin Fu Ba Qua 63 palms. I can show you that too.
    I can show you what sets from Luohan were used to develop Cheng Ting Hua Ba Gua as well.

    the second road of Xiao Hong Quan was developed during the Qing Dynasty, to bring more kicks into the Hong Quan system, now it is incorporated into Yin Fu Ba Gua as well. Move by move.

    Those pages (113 & 114) that mention the Rou Quan are a second version of Rou Quan, developed in Qing dynasty that is part original rou quan and part luohan quan. The original ROu Quan is very different. I know these original sets.

    That Tai Ji is called Chan Tai Ji, it was developed by a woman and her students in the Qing dynasty from Wudang tai ji and other stuff. It is not ancient stuff.
    That 18 Luohan Palm set in the back of the book is from Qing dynasty too.

    Yes, those Rou Quan sets at Plum are some of the original Rou Quan sets, taught by a great teacher who is part of Shi De Qian's lineage. They purposely do stuff incorrect on those vcds, you have to be shown where.

    Chang Hu XinYi Men Quan is a Qing dynasty set, it's okay. Based on the old stuff, but I'd rather do the old stuff.

    Great Power sets in Tagou books? That's just the Pau Chui and Pao Quan sets. Nothing mysterious.
    The Pao Chui sets I already talked about in the previous paragraphs. They are important sets, and pre-Qing dynasty.

    I'll make a list of the best Shaolin books and videos that are out there, I have all of them that exist. Most stink, but there are a few good ones. I don't know if the good ones are still available, I got them in the 70s and 80s. I have an ancient book on Shaolin TZ CHang Quan yi lu, that has to old song dynasty chinese characters for the moves, some of the characters are so rare that I had to get a bunch of different translators to work them out.

    I will do that another day, right now it would take too long.

    Search through this site, I made a post of a giant list comparing all the Luohan sets that are in books and videos with each other, which are wrong, etc.

    thanks!!!!

    Comment


    • #3
      Hey Sal,

      You talk a lot about all the books and vcd's that you have. I'm a little jealous, those things aren't the easiest to come across. Do you know any good places to buy any of these, or do you just have to go to the source ?

      For example, I'm most interested in having a look at the Tagou manual, as well as Shi Deqian's encyclopedias (especially this last one with actual pictures). But do you know anywhere I could come across these without actually going to Tagou or Deqian ? Any good sites on the net ? You also have talked a lot about the vcd's you've come across. I realize you've been collecting them for some time, but would you know were some of the good ones you have come across are still available ? It can be hard to find the jewels among the wealth of shit out there and you have the upper hand here !

      If you could point me in the right direction that would be great! I'm sure there's a few other viewers on here that would find this info valuable as well.

      Thanks.
      Travis

      PS: Thanks for sharing your brain and all the info in it with us here. It's really a blessing to have guys like you and Uwe on here sharing the work you've spent years of your life unraveling. I appreciate it more than you guys know !!!
      Last edited by baiwanxi; 06-12-2007, 04:36 PM.
      "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by baiwanxi
        Hey Sal,

        You talk a lot about all the books and vcd's that you have. I'm a little jealous, those things aren't the easiest to come across. Do you know any good places to buy any of these, or do you just have to go to the source ?

        For example, I'm most interested in having a look at the Tagou manual, as well as Shi Deqian's encyclopedias (especially this last one with actual pictures). But do you know anywhere I could come across these without actually going to Tagou or Deqian ? Any good sites on the net ? You also have talked a lot about the vcd's you've come across. I realize you've been collecting them for some time, but would you know were some of the good ones you have come across are still available ? It can be hard to find the jewels among the wealth of shit out there and you have the upper hand here !

        If you could point me in the right direction that would be great! I'm sure there's a few other viewers on here that would find this info valuable as well.

        Thanks.
        Travis

        PS: Thanks for sharing your brain and all the info in it with us here. It's really a blessing to have guys like you and Uwe on here sharing the work you've spent years of your life unraveling. I appreciate it more than you guys know !!!

        Well, you could do what I did, since 1975, besides actually learn CMA, go to the Chinatowns of not only every major city in the usa, but also other countries.
        Then buy every chinese manual that was any good.
        Then spend more than 20 years meeting the oldest people I could find, now long dead, and accumulating boxes of video tapes, family styles, and so on, and paper notes and files on CMAs styles and history. The problem is that these people entrusted me with stuff they didn't give their own students, because none of them were interested in CMA history or the history of their own styles, so rather than the stuff being gone for good, they gave them to me (copies). I have super rare tapes of families doing their martial arts, old tapes transferred from 8mm film, notes, "lyrics" for forms movements and postures, tons of rare books no longer in print, etc. Not bragging, just explaining. I work with many hundreds of Chinese people and they have been relatives of people that got me inside info or they have translated data into english for me. I belonged to a KF club that had many people passing through that exchanged some of their forms for other owns and also background info on their styles. Being at the right place at the right time (hard work in other words) is what it is all about.

        I doubt someone can do that to this extent right now in this day and age, most of that old stuff is long out of print and many people are long dead.

        If you want my recommendations on where you can get old Chinese martial arts manuals and vcds, then go here, they have many of the material that I have accumulated:
        http://www.plumpub.com/
        and more vcds at http://www.cmaod.com/

        I order my books direct from Shi De Qian, you can get all the Shaolin stuff you want from him that way.
        This website does the ordering for you: http://www.earthworks.com/
        Go to that page and scroll to the Shaolin Encyclopedia area.
        They have both versions, the 4 volume set and the new 2 volume set with photos.
        I have the old versions of them too that are out of print.

        They are fast and reliable, its not too expensive either, the cheapest place to get them from since they come direct. When I ordered the new version with photos, I paid via paypal and in 5 days I had the books at home already!!!!

        And the Tagou manuals, I got them from www.wle.com

        Sal

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks A Ton ! I'm not sure if I'm gonna be around New York / New Jersy this summer (I'll only be home for two months and then it's back to China), but if I am I'll try to look you up. Once again, thanks for all that you've shared and keep sharing.
          "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks a lot for your clear explanations and for your invitation to come and take some classes with you. But I live in Spain so I'll just say that I'm not packing yet. But maybe in the future...

            I already knew Pao Quan is an important style to Shaolin so I was eager to learn it but it turns out I've been practicing one of these forms for a couple of years already without knowing it. That was a pleasant suprise.

            On youtube there are some videos calling it Xiao Pao Quan so I looked up the Xiao Pao routines in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. It kind of matches the routine on page 328 but there seems to be a big difference with the version in Tagou Handbook. Do you think this is because of lineage or is it more a question of modern vs traditional?? I learned this form from a monk of the Heng generation and it matches perfectly the one in Tagou handbook. Deyang doesn't do it as in the Tagou, but this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KxVoHTdek This is like a little more than half the form I learned.

            Most of the stuff I know comes from Shi De Ding (Jiao Hong Bo) and seems to be closer to DeQian's versions than the Tagou versions.
            Often this differs from the way Deyang does them, which suprises me because both are from the same generation, so I'd expect they learned from the same masters of 30th generation. But on the other hand I only know deyang's way from his instructional vcds that have been ripped and put on youtube so maybe that's not the best reference.

            Same thing goes for Xiao Tongbei Quan. there are a lot of differences as well. Tagou does only two of three roads, while De Qian describes three roads as does Deyang in his vcds but they don't match completely. Order of moves is different and Deyang does some moves not listed in the encyclopedia. Again is this lineage or just traditional and modern version and maybe altered version in Deyangs vcd not to give the whole form away? (I'd put the link of youtube here but the video has been removed)

            I was lucky to train under a teacher who often brings monks to his school in Belgium, but he doesn't have too much interest in the background so we mostly learned forms from the monks without knowing what they were called or where they came from. Since at first they were 31st, 32nd or 33 generation this went really well and we learned pretty traditional style but lately the guests are from Heng generation and they teach us some traditional forms sometimes but mostly animal forms which I think are pretty modern wushu things. And the traditional ones generally are the Tagou versions.

            Makes me wonder if the Tagou Handbook is a good reference for traditional shaolin or not.

            About the Tai Zu: I've been experimenting with the form going fast/slow hard/soft and the form has a natural flow to it so I think I'm getting it right.


            On Rou Quan

            I searched YouTube and found this video with the title "soft fist", which would be the translation of Rou Quan

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes

            and this one which says senior monk form

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordxGHhifjg

            Do you know which forms they are? I suppose it won't be complete forms because most of the time when I see videos of monks performing older forms they tend to leave out parts or add or just start to improvise after a while. Especially if they were performing in front of USSD. I'm European so I didn't know the story of USSD but I read some stuff on forums and let's say I'm happy not knowing them.

            I loved your comments on their Buddha fist, hahaha

            " salcanzonieri (3 weeks ago) marked as spam
            That form is total modern crap, it is a mixture of postures from various forms, there is no authentic Shaolin form that looks like that one.

            (Reply) (Spam)



            teylorleigh (3 weeks ago) marked as spam
            and who the **** are you?

            (Reply) (Spam)




            salcanzonieri (2 weeks ago) marked as spam
            Someone who's been doing CMA since 1975, published author and researcher, and who regularly corresponds with old (in their 80s) Shaolin practitioners.
            "

            I've been reading on your other posts and some on the kungfumagazine forum and mostly the're great suff to read. Thanks for providing this information.


            About buying the encyclopedia from De Qian. I got it from the earthworks page and was very surprised how fast it got delivered. And it's really worth the money even if you don't read chinese characters. I don`t think you could actually learn forms out of it but it's a great reference

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Carona
              On youtube there are some videos calling it Xiao Pao Quan so I looked up the Xiao Pao routines in the Shaolin Encyclopedia. It kind of matches the routine on page 328 but there seems to be a big difference with the version in Tagou Handbook. Do you think this is because of lineage or is it more a question of modern vs traditional?? I learned this form from a monk of the Heng generation and it matches perfectly the one in Tagou handbook. Deyang doesn't do it as in the Tagou, but this way http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5KxVoHTdek This is like a little more than half the form I learned.

              Most of the stuff I know comes from Shi De Ding (Jiao Hong Bo) and seems to be closer to DeQian's versions than the Tagou versions.
              Often this differs from the way Deyang does them, which suprises me because both are from the same generation, so I'd expect they learned from the same masters of 30th generation. But on the other hand I only know deyang's way from his instructional vcds that have been ripped and put on youtube so maybe that's not the best reference.

              Same thing goes for Xiao Tongbei Quan. there are a lot of differences as well. Tagou does only two of three roads, while De Qian describes three roads as does Deyang in his vcds but they don't match completely. Order of moves is different and Deyang does some moves not listed in the encyclopedia. Again is this lineage or just traditional and modern version and maybe altered version in Deyangs vcd not to give the whole form away? (I'd put the link of youtube here but the video has been removed)

              I was lucky to train under a teacher who often brings monks to his school in Belgium, but he doesn't have too much interest in the background so we mostly learned forms from the monks without knowing what they were called or where they came from. Since at first they were 31st, 32nd or 33 generation this went really well and we learned pretty traditional style but lately the guests are from Heng generation and they teach us some traditional forms sometimes but mostly animal forms which I think are pretty modern wushu things. And the traditional ones generally are the Tagou versions.

              Makes me wonder if the Tagou Handbook is a good reference for traditional shaolin or not.

              About the Tai Zu: I've been experimenting with the form going fast/slow hard/soft and the form has a natural flow to it so I think I'm getting it right.


              On Rou Quan

              I searched YouTube and found this video with the title "soft fist", which would be the translation of Rou Quan

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb88MRwkhes

              and this one which says senior monk form

              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ordxGHhifjg

              Do you know which forms they are? I suppose it won't be complete forms because most of the time when I see videos of monks performing older forms they tend to leave out parts or add or just start to improvise after a while. Especially if they were performing in front of USSD. I'm European so I didn't know the story of USSD but I read some stuff on forums and let's say I'm happy not knowing them.

              I loved your comments on their Buddha fist, hahaha

              " salcanzonieri (3 weeks ago) marked as spam
              That form is total modern crap, it is a mixture of postures from various forms, there is no authentic Shaolin form that looks like that one.

              (Reply) (Spam)



              teylorleigh (3 weeks ago) marked as spam
              and who the **** are you?

              (Reply) (Spam)




              salcanzonieri (2 weeks ago) marked as spam
              Someone who's been doing CMA since 1975, published author and researcher, and who regularly corresponds with old (in their 80s) Shaolin practitioners.
              "

              I've been reading on your other posts and some on the kungfumagazine forum and mostly the're great suff to read. Thanks for providing this information.


              About buying the encyclopedia from De Qian. I got it from the earthworks page and was very surprised how fast it got delivered. And it's really worth the money even if you don't read chinese characters. I don`t think you could actually learn forms out of it but it's a great reference


              Yes, indeed, Shi De Ynag has been showing a different version of the sets on vcd that Shi De Qian's versions. But then I have seen him to them the same way, so I don't know why he is showing the sets altered.

              Let me tell you about vcds and book sets, they are "marked", meaning a wrong move is purposefully put in there to let them know that you learned it from the vcd or book and can't claim that they were your teachers. You have to know the real form to know where the marks are put in. Sometimes the Tagou sets are the more accurate one and sometimes the Shaolin Encyclopedia sets are. Most of the time, the wrong moves can be figured out if you compare both sets (obviously the parts that don't match are right in one book and wrong an other book. Which one? ha, that's why you need a teacher.

              Yes, that Rou Quan set is most of the Rou Quan 36 Posture set. But this monk does some of it wrong or changed on purpose to not show those asses at USSD the right stuff, he marked the form heavily. I know this original set and I know where all his marks are put in (hint: no punches are in Rou Quan, only palm movements, so anyplace he is punching he is taking out sections and skipping them).

              That other set, called Senior Monk form is parts of the very rare to see
              "Xin Yi Ba" the ORIGINAL Shaolin martial exercise, it is really 144 rows of movements, all internal and comes from the movements of farming and local domestic and wild animals (hawk, chicken/rooster, cat, monkey, etc).

              It is VERY RARE for them to show these hidden sets, they never do that, but I think that they were SO FLABBERGASTED and grossed out by the crap that USSD showed as "shaolin" that they wanted to show what REAL shaolin is like without letting the cat out of the bag and having these USSD bozos copy their sets. So they are marked super heavy!
              There is also another set they showed that is the Ruo Quan way of doing a Pao Chui set, but they really marked it a lot:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crSZxdC4pq8

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sal Canzonieri
                Yes, indeed, Shi De Ynag has been showing a different version of the sets on vcd that Shi De Qian's versions. But then I have seen him to them the same way, so I don't know why he is showing the sets altered.
                may i ask, where have you seen him personally do the forms a different way? when he performs dahongquan for example, i've noticed some moves are altered to make it faster for the performance. but he is quite consistent in teaching the form the way he learned it. he teaches the form on the vcd the way he teaches it in person. (although the vcd often doesnt allow much explanation or demonstration so you miss a lot, which is more due to the production than his instruction) it is only different in performance, never in transmission. as far as my experience has shown. but i have never seen him do a whole different version of the same forms.

                other than that, the only difference i've seen is the way shi deyang does his forms, and the way some of his students do them. but its mostly because they are young and like to speed things up. its normal to see that. and deyang is not always around. young coaches lead the classes, and they enjoy modern wushu which influences their traditional forms sometimes.

                i'd like to see where shi deyang himself does different versions of the same form though.

                but now, have you seen the way shi decheng's xiaoluohanquan goes? it is majorly different than the way shi deyang does it. and they are two of the last remaining traditionalists with true technique learned from the olds.

                however, the way shi deyang does it on vcd (seen on youtube) is exactly the way he performed it years ago on old documentaries and the same way it is taught at his school today.

                the reason for the differences between masters is because of their lineage. the forms were transmitted in a different version from master to disciple.

                but when it comes to this new band of monks under shi yongxin's movement, its majorly due to their marking the forms when you see it in performance or on vcd, and its also that they never learned it from the old masters. they are mostly new monks at shaolin. even if they are old men. shi yongxin wants everyone doing the forms the same way. which will cause some lost technique. but tradition is not what they care about. even if they try and make the forms look more internal, that doesnt make it ancient. i wouldnt look at any of their performances for whats real. even without the markings. rare shouldnt be confused with real. its a new invention made to look ancient, if you ask me. but every once in a while it shifts from modern flavor to ancient flavor. buddhist flavor to martial arts flavor. they really dont even know which way they want to go with it. whichever attracts more interest and money to be shared between temple and government.

                if you're really interested in the ways and whys masters such as shi deqian, shi deyang, and shi decheng, etc. do their forms in the versions they do, and what they believe to be real as they learned it from their masters, the best thing is not to look up their videos and books but to go meet them. learn from them. ask them. otherwise you're wasting your time sitting behind words and images and not experiencing their teachings.

                thats my best advice. you wont find any depth to the teachings on vcd or in books anyway. they are all missing something. even without marks. its just an empty shell, the physical movements. the marrow is not taught. what makes it function is not revealed. its not done to deceive anyone or to keep things secret, but to keep the teachings within the shaolin family.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The rou quan routines

                  I'm getting more and more interested in these rou quan routines. I got some vcd's of them and am trying to find the right way to do these.

                  And before people start saying that dvd, vcd or books cannot replace a teacher and I should look for one.... I know that.
                  But I have a strong basis of Shaolin kungfu and Chen taijiquan learnt from good teachers and supposedly a lot of the movements from rou quan forms appear in several later shaolin forms which I did learn personally from good teachers.
                  And more importantly I did learn the lohan 13 qi gong which are the building blocks for the first rou quan routine. So I guess if I find the correct sequence, get some video material and some help here I should be able to string the moves I altready know together and get it right.

                  So now the questions:

                  sequence of rou quan 1 on vcd is

                  open form
                  1 Old monk chops wood
                  2 Lohan drapes coat
                  3 lazy monk rests head on a pillow
                  step back and parry with elbow
                  4double hands push mountain
                  5 wind swings lotus leaves
                  6 Lohan bears the flag
                  crossed leg stance and fist
                  lion opens mouth
                  7 Cloud hands 7 star punch
                  hold both fists separated at shoulder height
                  step back and block with elbow
                  8 Hold tiger's head
                  9 roll hands push palm
                  10 lohan sifts flower
                  11 white snakes spits tongue
                  leg winded in silk
                  turn over fist
                  strike elbow in horse stance
                  12 One hand inserts incense stick
                  empty step and push palm
                  13 Lohan carries basket on arm
                  sit on mountain
                  Close form
                  the numbered moves are the ones from 13 lohan gong

                  when I do it this way some things don't feel right, don't flow right and I especially find some 13 Lohan gong movements performed diferently in this form. I suppose those are the altered parts.

                  what doesn't feel right:
                  the "lohan bears the flag" only rises and does not fall down as in the qigong exercise. And i especially like this move as it resembles the "golden rooster stands on one leg" from chen taijiquan and especially a xingyi move which rise up before falling down and hitting downwards with palm.
                  vcd shows rising and then a heelkick followed by cross legged stance with a punch which doesn't make use of the rising/falling energy of the move.

                  the "separate fists at shoulder" height move. I like it better done as the second move in erlu lohan quan where you separate palms in mabu.

                  changing from "lohan sifts flour" to white snake spits center" seems a bit stiff and forced

                  "one hand introduces incense stick" ends in horse stance while the qigong version is with crossed legs and the hand position is different as wel. But if I cross legs and do it the qigong way it's harder to transition to push a palm in empty step.

                  Then I found this posted by Sal on another forum

                  Shaolin Rou Quan – Lohan 13 Forms (Chi Gung)

                  1. Old Monk Splits (Chop) Wood – Lao Seng Pi Chai
                  2. Lo Han Drapes Coat – Luo Han Pi Yi
                  3. Lazy Monk Lies on Pillow – Lan Seng Wo Zhen
                  4. Double Hands Push Mountain – Shuang Shou Tui Shan
                  Step back & Parry with elbow
                  Cross leg rest stance & fist
                  Lion Opens Mouth
                  5. Wind Swings Lotus Leaves – Feng Bai He Ye
                  6. Lo Han Bears the Flag – Luo Han Qi Ba
                  7. Cloud Hands 7 Star – Yun Shou Qi Xing
                  Er Lang rushes mountain
                  Back cross step & parry elbow
                  8. Tiger Hugs Head – Hu Bao Tou
                  9. Roll Hand Push Palm – Gun Shou Tui Chang
                  10. Lo Han Sifts Flour – Luo Han Luo (snares)
                  11. White Snake Spits Center – Bai She Tu Xin
                  Strike elbow with horse stance
                  12. One Hand Inserts Incense stick – Dan Shou Cha Xiang
                  Empty step & Push palm
                  13. Lo Han Carries Basket on Arm – Luo Han Kua Lan
                  Sit on mountain position (end)

                  This comes from ShiDegian so it should be relyable.

                  Here the order of moves is a bit different. So the "lohan bears flag" movement can be performed all the way and is nicely followed by "cloud hands 7 star"

                  going into cross legged stance after stepping back also makes sense and is still followed by the "lion opens mouth" move.

                  But going from "lazy monk lies on pillow" to "double hands push mountain" and from "lion opens mouth" to "wind swings lotus leaves" is a bit akward to me.

                  and there a few moves on the vcd which are not in this version. being leg winded in silk and turn over fist which do make a good and smooth transition between white snake... and elbow in horse stance.

                  Can anyone comment on these thoughts, tell me how the moves transition one into another etc...


                  thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Phew, where do I start?

                    Okay, correct, I made some omission typos, "leg winded in silk, turn over fist" are missing in my list there, they go right after the Snake tongue posture. And after Louhan Bears Flag, you do indeed do "crossed leg stance and fist, lion opens mouth". And, correct again: "lazy monk rests head on a pillow, step back and parry with elbow"
                    I forgot to include them in my list.

                    Now, for the rest of the stuff:

                    Well, I am totally willing to teach you the Rou Quan forms the correct way to do them. You first have to learn two nei gong sets that set the fundamentals up: the 6 Harmony Gong (6 moves) and the Chan Yuan Gong (8 moves).
                    I live in NJ, where do you live?

                    There are a group of Rou Quan sets. Some are like Chen TJQ, but some are a lot like Yang, Zhaobao, and Wu (Hao) TJQ. Wu is a combination of Yang and Zhaobao anyways.

                    Movements are done slightly different in the martial set than the Luohan 13 Gong nei gong set (and I guarantee that you aren't doing the Luohan 13 correctly either, no offense meant, but you need to be shown specific things to do right, little details that change everything for the better).

                    If you learn the forms correctly, they flow perfectly fine, you just need for someone to show you once and you will save "OH! Okay!). That simple.
                    But without the foundational material, you will do body mechanics incorrectly.

                    "Luohan bears flag" is a tiger movement, it does rise and fall, with a big slap down at the end. Then you follow with a twisting Dragon stance and then goes into the Lion Opens Mouth. But, Did you know that there is a elbow block and back fist in the movement first, before rising?
                    This move is like "Ba Wang Overlooks Battle Field" in other forms, but on one leg.
                    You do elbow block, back fist, swing arms across body, jamming shin kick, fall, and slap hand down, then from there you twist open hand into fist and twist body into Dragon stance.

                    "Separate fist at shoulder" is simply "Single Whip" as done in Xiao Hong Quan. You twist both arms so that backs of hands face each other and then you punch out both at once.

                    "lohan sifts flour" to white snake spits center": well, after shift is completed, you cross hands as you push palms downwards and THEN circle them up and finish the snake movement. Not awkward if shown to you.

                    "Incense Stick" move in the qi gong is a throw, you need to be shown how first.
                    Top hand goes to deflect incoming attack and other hand goes behind opponent as you throw them over your hip. Next half, It is the same move exactly after the throw as "needle at sea bottom" in Tai Ji Quan. The qi gong is doing this, but in place, not moving to one side.

                    Contact me and let's see how we can meet and I can show you correct way.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      allright, thanks for the fast reply. It cleared up a few things.

                      I live in Spain and wasn't planning on going to NJ (to New Jersey I would have to fly to Newark, right?), but perhaps I should check if I could fly over, find some cheap accomodation and do some serious training when I get 2 weeks of holiday and money to spend meanwhile. I think plane tickets shouldn't be too expensive.

                      I was taught the 13 luohan gong, chan yuan gong and liu he gong sets a few years ago by my teacher. But there's always room for improvement. Actually one of the things I had noticed about the longest set of rou quan (108 set I guess), is that I recognized 4 moves from the chan yuan gong and suppose if I look better I will find the other 4 in there as well.
                      But at the moment I'm focusing on the first form.

                      Yes, I think rou quan first form is a fantastic form when it comes to applications. I keep finding new ones every time I study it closely and find lots of qin na and takedowns which seem close to chen taiji. Probably because that is what I know.

                      I like the elbow block backfist thing you said and have a few more ways to use the luohan bears flag: block a punch with left forearm and grab the wrist, use right arm to either uppercut/backfist or get an arm bar placing his elbow between my forearm and biceps. this way when you raise your elbow twisting your fists and swing arms across body you break the arm. Or simply sink to your opponent's side, grab one leg hooking right arm under his knee or thigh, rise and twist to throw... If you haven't tried these than that's my little return for getting help.

                      I'll look into the incense stick you explained as I saw downwards elbows in it... but sinking would make it easier for a throw of course.

                      I know it's not the same thing as seeing and feeling things by learning with a teacher but with tiny steps I'm getting somewhere, so thanks for helping out.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Carona
                        allright, thanks for the fast reply. It cleared up a few things.

                        I live in Spain and wasn't planning on going to NJ (to New Jersey I would have to fly to Newark, right?), but perhaps I should check if I could fly over, find some cheap accomodation and do some serious training when I get 2 weeks of holiday and money to spend meanwhile. I think plane tickets shouldn't be too expensive.

                        I was taught the 13 luohan gong, chan yuan gong and liu he gong sets a few years ago by my teacher. But there's always room for improvement. Actually one of the things I had noticed about the longest set of rou quan (108 set I guess), is that I recognized 4 moves from the chan yuan gong and suppose if I look better I will find the other 4 in there as well.
                        But at the moment I'm focusing on the first form.

                        Yes, I think rou quan first form is a fantastic form when it comes to applications. I keep finding new ones every time I study it closely and find lots of qin na and takedowns which seem close to chen taiji. Probably because that is what I know.

                        I like the elbow block backfist thing you said and have a few more ways to use the luohan bears flag: block a punch with left forearm and grab the wrist, use right arm to either uppercut/backfist or get an arm bar placing his elbow between my forearm and biceps. this way when you raise your elbow twisting your fists and swing arms across body you break the arm. Or simply sink to your opponent's side, grab one leg hooking right arm under his knee or thigh, rise and twist to throw... If you haven't tried these than that's my little return for getting help.

                        I'll look into the incense stick you explained as I saw downwards elbows in it... but sinking would make it easier for a throw of course.

                        I know it's not the same thing as seeing and feeling things by learning with a teacher but with tiny steps I'm getting somewhere, so thanks for helping out.
                        Spain, eh?

                        Well, I go there once a year with my band, Electric Frankenstein.

                        Really? Someone in Spain taught those nei gong sets and the Rou Quan sets?
                        Interesting.
                        Well, I know the 108 move set, it has ALL the movements from the Luohan 13 Gong and the Chan Yuan Gong.
                        I also know a Chan Yuan Quan set that goes with the nei gong set.

                        I also know the 36 Rou Quan set.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I learned the three nei gong sets in Belgium, not in Spain.
                          But not the rou quan forms which is why I'm combining everything I learned about shaolin in about 7 years with anything I can get my hands on.
                          I collect books and vcd's to see different versions of forms or just to get an idea where a style comes from or watch the beauty of a good routine

                          But when I got rouquan 1 vcd from plumpub and saw it was luohan 13 gong chained together I taught I'd give it a try. That has been a year and a half ago. I did some trial and error to get the right feel and find the marked parts. This way I started doing the Luohan bears flag move differently which you have confirmed, so I`m doing something right. But still have to work on it though.
                          It is actually a lot of fun trying to learn this way. It takes a lot more thinking, analyzing and investigating than accepting things handed to you. But it is a lot harder and slower and I need some hints sometimes.

                          I got the 36 form from cmaod on http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html which looks pretty nice and the 108 form from plumpub but I haven´t started learning these. I just watch them once in a while and search for moves I recognize from other shaolin forms or nei gong and try to understand what they're doing and find markers and later when I'll have analyzed the moves I'll try to learn the sequence.

                          A chan yuan quan set should be a nice form. Is that 8 moves joined or is there more to it? What the history on Chan Yuan and Liu He? There is not a lot of information on them around.

                          Whenever you come to Spain, pm me if you have some time in between touring to meet up. I can move around the peninsula in my van if necesary. By the way I have some friends who are into the whole punk, rock`nroll, rockabilly, surfscene. I'll ask if they know your band. Perhaps you've been to a infamous rock`n`roll bar at walking distance from my place in Valencia called "Gabba Gabba" where Spanish rockers "wau y los aaaaaarghs " hang out. I could even let you do a guest class for my students.
                          If I make ant plans to go to NJ i'll notify to see if your not touring.
                          Anyway, it would be a pleasure to meet you.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Carona
                            I learned the three nei gong sets in Belgium, not in Spain.
                            But not the rou quan forms which is why I'm combining everything I learned about shaolin in about 7 years with anything I can get my hands on.
                            I collect books and vcd's to see different versions of forms or just to get an idea where a style comes from or watch the beauty of a good routine

                            But when I got rouquan 1 vcd from plumpub and saw it was luohan 13 gong chained together I taught I'd give it a try. That has been a year and a half ago. I did some trial and error to get the right feel and find the marked parts. This way I started doing the Luohan bears flag move differently which you have confirmed, so I`m doing something right. But still have to work on it though.
                            It is actually a lot of fun trying to learn this way. It takes a lot more thinking, analyzing and investigating than accepting things handed to you. But it is a lot harder and slower and I need some hints sometimes.

                            I got the 36 form from cmaod on http://www.cmaod.com/Shaolin9.html which looks pretty nice and the 108 form from plumpub but I haven´t started learning these. I just watch them once in a while and search for moves I recognize from other shaolin forms or nei gong and try to understand what they're doing and find markers and later when I'll have analyzed the moves I'll try to learn the sequence.

                            A chan yuan quan set should be a nice form. Is that 8 moves joined or is there more to it? What the history on Chan Yuan and Liu He? There is not a lot of information on them around.

                            Whenever you come to Spain, pm me if you have some time in between touring to meet up. I can move around the peninsula in my van if necesary. By the way I have some friends who are into the whole punk, rock`nroll, rockabilly, surfscene. I'll ask if they know your band. Perhaps you've been to a infamous rock`n`roll bar at walking distance from my place in Valencia called "Gabba Gabba" where Spanish rockers "wau y los aaaaaarghs " hang out. I could even let you do a guest class for my students.
                            If I make ant plans to go to NJ i'll notify to see if your not touring.
                            Anyway, it would be a pleasure to meet you.
                            Understood.

                            Ok, cool, let's make it happen.
                            Either I see you there in Spain or you come here to NJ.

                            I am thinking of doing a seminar here on the nei gongs and the Rou Quan sets and their relationship to TJQ.
                            If so, I'll have it taped and you can have a copy.

                            Hey, what about it you can set up a seminar for me to teach this material in Spain?
                            That would kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

                            I can do an intensive program, start with the 3 nei gong sets, why the moves are the way they are, where they come from originally, even the self defense applications hidden in them.
                            Then the martial sets for Luohan 13 Gong and Chan Yuan Quan.

                            Then I can come back and do the same for the 36 Rou Quan, and then the 108 Rou Quan.

                            Also, there are more Rou Quan sets than these.
                            Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-12-2007, 03:31 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Hi Sal,

                              I was wondering if you already have specific dates in mind to tour Spain with your band.

                              If you let me know up front I'll see if I can set up something seminarwise. I should be able to get hold of university installations if I notify early.

                              Hope to hear from you soon.

                              Comment

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