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Monks with Girl friends... Cool or Not ???

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  • #31
    Look, Arhat,,,
    I'm not asking about people who belive and follow the "dharma" getting married or having girlies.
    There are such things as monastaries. In Buddhism there are people who are ordained and have taken vows not to marry. Some of the hardcore Buddhist sects restrict their followers from looking at women at all, much less talking to one.

    Nothing you say, and none of your opinions can change that !

    Unfortunately for Shaolin "monks" they are ordained by one of these temples, one of these secs of Buddhism that restricts marriage and girlfriends.

    I'm not talking idealistics. I'm talking black and white. They have done the equivalent of saying to god, "I will not get married or have a girlfriend", and then broke that vow. This is not about the term "wuseng", or "heshang". This is a promise they have made to themselves in front of their icon and founder of all they believe, and then they have turned against that.

    I just said this in another post, but Shi Xingpeng, got married, lives with his wife in New Jersy, and renounced his vows as a monastic. Now he goes by Zhang Lipeng, his Chinese name. He couldn't lie to himself infront of Buddha, he couldn't lie to those who look up to him and continue going by that "title".

    That must say something for these other guys with girlfiend / wives. Not only American monks but also the Chinese such as my shifu.
    "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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    • #32
      unfortunately for your opinion, there was such a thing as the CR. This changed a lot for Shaolin. Some will argue for the bad, some will say some changes were for the better. Monks returned with families in tow.

      You can not possibly, seriously, sit there and type into your keyboard this trash nonsense without realizing that Buddhism is not a static practice- whether you look in monasteries or nunneries, or households. There are major schisms, major schools, many expressions of the dharma.

      Buddhism does not exist as a static, nor should it ever. Just like Buddha capitulated and allowed the adoption of the monastic code, now things are changing again, have always been changing and evolving gradually over time. Did Buddha not keep his family, yet lived in his monastic community? Yes he did. So thank you very much, nice speaking with you, have a nice day.

      Also, there is a saying- don't piss down my neck and tell me it is raining. You want to get caught up in how you want to define this person against that person, who is a real "buddhist" and who is a real "monk," when these terms are abstractions attempting to help define ineffables, please be my guest.

      Hopefully the Dalai Lama or some other major notable will be the first on your revocation list, why go small when you can go large.
      "Arhat, I am your father..."
      -the Dark Lord Cod

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      • #33
        The term " monk" is not an abstract. Even the Chinese translations of the word, in it's numerous meanings, have well defined sets of rules depending on what sect you follow.

        But, I think your last post came the clostest to what I was going for when I posted this thread. I don't think that monks having girlfriends is horribly wrong. Like I said, both of my shifu have one, but they're still great guys and know a shitton about Buddhism. They can still teach me and help me on my path.

        Times are changing, and you're right Buddhism is not static and nor should it be.

        I get cought up in my feelings toward this whole "monastic" thing. I don't know how I feel about it. One side of me want's to say if you've taken the vows of a monastic then don't go that path (women and alcohol). Stay a "monk". The other says (heavily influenced from personal encounters with monks), they are normal people and prone to living a dealing with a fast pace society where life is different from the way things were. But that in turn makes me want to say that in the midst of these changing times you should be a hardcore monastic and set an example for all those who fall short.

        I still think the bottom line line is, these men / women have taken vows in their order not to get married. If they want to do that, they should renounce their title like Zhang Lipeng.

        When I asked my shifu how he could have a girlfriend he said, "we don't have sex, so it's allowed. If we have sex I am no longer a wuseng".
        THat is what he told me. Strait up ! I didn't ask about marriage, but I'm sure it's the same, if he get's married he is no longer a monk.

        That is the black and white of it. Whether or not you feel it's trash, it is a rule in the Shaolin monastic ordination and I heard it from the mouth of a Shaolin monk.

        I'm sorry you don't agree. I'm not sure that I agree 100% but those are the rules that they have vowed to live by. Even the PCR acknowleges that. Shi Yongxin has no wife and would not be permitted to remain as Abbot if he did.
        "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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        • #34
          Baiwanxi.

          Your shifu's interpretation of requirement for celibacy to be a Wuseng is a personal belief. There are probably somewhere in the region of couple of hundred Wuseng in the provinces around Shaolin, who are still classified as Wuseng, would have always have been classified as wuseng, and whose oppinions do not tally with you shifu's.

          Presently being married does not prevent anyone from being a wuseng. Further nobody gets thrown out of Shaolin for being married. So if you are telling me now its not Buddhism, and Yong Xin and the Communist Party are saying otherwise, guess who I'm gonna go with?

          Again, extrapolating from one Shifu is questionable.

          Chicken

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          • #35
            Well.. maybe they aren't allowed to have wives... but they might be able to have secret wives...... Secret wives are more legitimate in the Shaolin community it seems... secret wives and secret children...

            I think this whole argument is pretty arbitrary since everyone will just come up with an explanation that best suits their life and their beliefs. But according to many of the more "loose" rules explained by Arhat and such... everyone could theoretically be a Shaolin Monk. Even Arhat himself. He is both very knowledgeable of Buddhism and Shaolin history and he also is trained in the martial arts. He also took vows. Therefore he is a monk as any of the other monks. Not that I am trying to personally attack you Arhat but you were one of the people posted who had more "loose" rules of Chan and Shaolin Buddhism. But regardless maybe you should give yourself more credit. And maybe question that you could be even more further along to enlightenment than your own master. This reminds me of that movie "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" where Zhang Ziyi realizes she is more gifted than Jade Fox... but then maybe in real life since Zhang Ziyi really doesn't know any MA, Jade Fox is further along... haha... yes that is completely random...

            Also, I found this another "monk" in NYC. He is from West Africa and I met him at the Comicon. He is a really nice guy. Real "authentic" Shaolin. His master traveled from Taiwan to West Africa to train him. I went to his school and looked at the facilities which is really modern and beautiful. He also trained in China for a bit. Well, I am not sure if he is a monk monk... but I think according to what I learnt in this forum he is a monk.. and he is African and has traveled around the world. And he is also from the West.. because he is West African.. and Amitabha was from the Western paradise. No seriously... I'm not being sarcastic... well not about him being nice....He was really awesome. He was such a welcoming person. The only reason why I didn't think about joining was I could not afford it. But he did have a very nice gym with very sophisticated machines.
            http://www.divinefitnessny.com/index.php

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            • #36
              I have heard of "wuseng" being allowed to drink alcohol and eat meat, but never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never have I heard or read in my 10 years of studying Shaolin and Buddhism that a wuseng was permitted to get married, after becoming a monk. If has has been married and then becomes a monk, that's a different senario. He's leaving his family behind. Hmm Hmm (clearing throat) Buddha........

              But never have I read a monk can be a monk and then get married have children and still be refered to by his "brothers" as a monk.

              I'm not saying this doesn't happen in and aroun Shaolin. But that doesn't speak too highly for Shaolin. Any SERIOUSLY ran temple would NOT allow this !!!!!!

              If you can prove me wrong, that Shaolin Wuseng are permitted to get married after initiation into the order then DO IT ! Put your money where your mouth is and show me some hard evidence. A documentation of the monastic code as applies to Shaolin translated into English.

              If you can't do that, then Shut Your Mouth.

              And Chicken, don't tell me I'm "extrapolating" one more time unless you have the fact's to prove it ! Everyone on this site knows that a "monk" is not permitted to marry. If you can prove that a "wuseng" IS permitted to, then yes, I'm just extrapolating. But untill you can do that shut your beak.

              And that goes for Arhat, BTL or any other or any others who hide behind philosophical ideas that are nothing more than personal opinion with out facing the facts. The black and white. These so called monks DO take vows, and ANY Mahayana Monastic Buddhist is not permitted from marrying.

              Actually, I want it. I want to see the proof. I want someone show me a copy of the vows of the Shaolin Wuseng. I want to see that these monks ARE permitted to marry. So, if for nothing else, the bitchfest of a debate will be over once and for all.

              Prove it or theres no reason to reply !!!!!!!!!!!
              "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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              • #37
                I've got no problem with people posting prolifically. I'm sometimes horrified seeing my own name come up 4 or 5 times on the resume of the last days posts, and afterwards I'm more mindful about whether I have anything useful to say before I post.

                Baiwanxi, you've spent a week in Dengfeng. You extrapolate all the time. There are more than a few remarks in your posts that are plain glib, and you don't know when to take your turn... like you replied to posts for something like 6 hours and made about 12 different posts on at least 10 different threads yesterday... your name was just all over the board.

                All I'm doing is calling you... and disagreeing with some of your less founded statements. Seems you have a problem with that but then you need to take a look at yourself.

                Tell me do you know a single Shaolin Monk / Warrior? If you don't, from what basis exactly are you judging them?

                Chicken

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                • #38
                  I think the problem is there is no documented monastic code.. or if there is then everyone seems to ignore it for whatever their purposes are...

                  From what I gather of chan they tend to frown on any rules in general... Opting instead for a super liberal approach to life.... Though this in itself can be a rather slippery slope... At a certain point you need to have boundaries and regulation on anything... if not then we live in a state of anarchy.... This whole monks with girlfriends, wives, secret wives, getting drunk, partying, profiting off everything and the works seems to fall into this catagory for me... The question then becomes where do you draw the line? Is it ok then to have 2 wives? why not 3? or 10?

                  If its ok to profit from shaolin then why not just open shaolin casinos? Penn and teller can do a weekly show... it will certainly take in money and then they can more effectively spread buddhism....

                  The more we talk about all these issues the more i tend to think that someone long ago already thought of all this stuff and drew the line at just being a buddhist monastary.... but then thats just me...
                  The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

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                  • #39
                    Yes Chicken, I do know two Shaolin Wuseng. My two shifu. I mentioned that in a post on same page as your post. I have gotten to know them rather well. One is 27 and the other is 24. They both lived in and around the temple since they were 7.

                    As for my posting, I find most all that's said here to be interesting. If I come across something that I want to reply on then I reply. If you don't want to read my posts, then don't. Some of it might be "glib", some of it I could have just kept to myself, but I felt like making the reply. Sorry if you don't like seeing me on here as much as I am. But I am here and I won't bow down for another person. Unless I respect their reasononig for wanting me to change, of course.....

                    I would also like to say that this site should be for exchanging information, there's no need to get personal. Of course I can't, and won't stop anyone from posting whatever they want. It would be nice if people refrained from getting personal on here though. But that just my opinion.
                    Last edited by baiwanxi; 03-10-2007, 10:44 AM.
                    "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Where's Doc?

                      Then you came to the wrong board Baiwanxi... we take people to task on this board just for wearing green shirts... LOL

                      BTL I've a feeling that might be it, Doc's feeling put out because we made Michael289 the Russbo Pin-up Guy!

                      But he's abandoned us, so Doc, please come back... BTL's right, the board's a lesser place without the mighty bald one!

                      Chicken

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                      • #41
                        Forum User Baiwanxi,

                        OK. All in all I'm totaly fine with a monk seeing a woman. I hope they don't do the do, but he / she is a person after all and theirfor inclined to the presure of living like everyone else in a normal society. That is if he she lives outside the monestary.

                        My problem is, tooday I saw one of my shifu's, a Sholin monk with his girl friend. (I never knew he had one !) We were on the bus and who got on, but my two shifu's. The older already has a girl friend but he's not very phisical with her in public, mostly just makes fun of her ! But the slightly younger monk (24) got on the bus and introduced me to his "friend". Then he proceeded to put his arm around her for the duration of the ride !

                        I was happy for him as I could see he was happy as a kid in a candy shop, but I couldn't help but find the situation a little wierd !!!

                        I know they are good people and decent monks, although I have watched them eat meat and smoke cigarettes before, but where do you draw the line.

                        If a Wu Seng (Martial Monk) can eat meat, drink beer, smoke cigarettes, go buy things in the city, wear normal clothes, wear short hair, and have a girl friend, then where do you draw the line ? Where does he cease to be a monk and begin to be a normal person again. At that point should he / she drop their adopted Buddhist name ?

                        And who are we to say otherwise ?

                        Are you aware why people choose to be Shaolin Monks,Masters and Grandmasters ?

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                        • #42
                          Forum User Renato,

                          it's the differnace between a "fighting monk" and the traditional western idea of a monk brought to mind by guys like the dalai lama.
                          Shaolin Buddhist Monks,Budhist Monks and Tibetian Monks do not "utilise" the same ways

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                          • #43
                            Typically I would think prople would make this "choice" in an effort to leave behind these very same attachmenets to the world.

                            I am however aware that more and more people are making the choice to turn to Shaolin as another means to gain a "job", a way to escape poverty. They could do the same by becoming an expert in Wushu, and some do, but Shaolin has that wonderful name to it that so many around the world have become familiar with.
                            "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Baiwanxi

                              I don't think its a case of more and more people are seeing it as a means to gain a "job". Becoming adept at Gongfu and Shaolin Gongfu, has ALWAYS been not just a career path, but a survival option.

                              Go back 100 years, and notice that China was feudal, and you could get forcibly drafted at any minute at your age. If you lived in such a time and had sons, would you send them somewhere where they could learn to protect themselves, if such an option was available?

                              China is still not ridden with firearms. The Chinese still have their concepts of honour and vengence, and there is a criminal underworld in China that is as real as it has always been.

                              I've just been doing some deals down here in GZ, and was having problems getting one closed. It was very tiring, and I wasn't actually very bothered about the price. SHX is one of the cruelest negotiatiors I have ever seen. He has no problem taking the eggs and killing the goose. I basically warned the guys, that he was coming out, and we should get it finalised before he arrived, or else it would all get considerably more complicated. They thought by more complicated I meant that he would physically intimidate them. I pointed out that they had absolutely nothing to worry about... unless they wronged him.

                              They took the message. And basically I think you will find that, in general given that my husband is a Shaolin Warrior, they won't mess with me, and that does make doing business considerably easier. I don't think that this effect is peculiar to me though, I think anyone who really gets to a good level, is garunteed a smoother run through life than someone who is easier to intimidate and cheat.

                              Chicken

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                              • #45
                                I agree, gongfu can help in life, just like the situation you presented. I didn't men it to sound so superficial, "just a job". Though I'm sure some people DO see it that way.

                                But I meant Shaolin. If it was just a matter of self defense or being drafted, there were, and still are many, many other place to learn the arts. But Shaolin has that "name".

                                And that's what Librarian had questioned me about.
                                "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

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