alternitive to weight training

[Firbolg]

And jumping out of an eight foot hole may not be possible now because we don't have time to do the long training for that.

Jumping out of an eight foot hole was never possible, bear in mind the current world record for the high jump is actually 8 feet and that requires a run up and landing on the back.. high jumpers typically being 7 foot tall also helps.

There is no way that any shaolin monk has ever been able to out jump todays professional world record holding athletes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_jump

In chi versus gravity - my money is on gravity.

[flow]

I guess he meant that if humans who could live 300 old lives and could train 375 days a year, 8 hours a day, for at least 250 years non-stop, passing the skills from father to son for at least 2000 generations, they might be able to jump this high or even more.

However, when I was younger I could jump very high, I've actually visited other planets with some mushroom tea...Maybe he's an adept? If not well it's a bit worrying, but hey it's good to have faith...Lol keeps u going

[onesp1ng]

u don't need faith to keep u going, just pull your pine tree three times a day. but be careful. apparently it causes blindness... lol

[jt1]

I'll pull my pine tree till I need glasses. No hint of eye problems yet, rock on.

[LeiYunFat]

Hahahahahahahahah

pull that tree, pull it all night!

Maybe your tree is halfway out of the ground because it's called the trunk. The thing about pulling trees is just as ridiculous as lifting the pencil. They both show that there is little knowledge about muscular system training. Tree pulling is not dynamic. It is isometric. It "trains" muscle fibers at a certain point of contraction. Anything less or greater than that remains untrained. For example, if you hold mabu all your life and don't do anything else, you will SUCK at squatting with any type of respecable range of motion. Why? You're still training your legs, aren't you?

For fighters and martial artists, it makes the most sense to train all the muscle fibers at different (read:all) points of motion.

Jumping out of four and maybe five foot holes is doable. I have a verticle of like 1 foot or less, and I can box jump onto three or four foot platforms...it has a lot to do with mobility. I'm almost certain that if you dig a 5 foot hole, getting out of it would be fairly simple if you jump and flop on your back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUHXKSOvcgE

Here's a test for you, G-Ma, let's see just how strong you are...do you know what a deadlift is? This is how you know your training is paying off. If your training is giving you benefits is all facests of alternative training, then you're doing something right. The only way that pulling a tree would be a good alternative to weight lifting is if it actually made you stronger and better at weight lifting. Catch my drift?

Okay, so back to the deadlift. Get your form down and pull however much weight you can handle. Pull your tree for five or six months, come back, and tell us how much you're pulling then.

[G-MA]

Explanation

I don't weight lift and I would never, it reduces flexability and in some cases damages joints. Plus Shaolin Training is not about stength my friend. Now please don't do anymore childish "dares".

[LeiYunFat]

Ha! Another "martial artist" who is anti-weight lifting.

I lift, and most all competitive fighters lift. Bruce Lee lifted. There are many, many ways to lift a weight. Depending on how you do it determines if it will emphasize things that you want, be it neuromuscular strength, endurance, hypertrophy, or any combonation of many different factors.

Oh and what I asked you to do was a "test". A "test" and a "dare" are two very different things. In order to be an alternative to weight lifting one must have their alternative have the same benefits of weight lifting. If one's goal is to consume more fiber, eating broccoli is one way to get fiber. However, eating oatmeal is an alternative. Strength is not all what martial arts training is about, sure. But it sure as hell is a huge part of conditioning, which is what this is all about in the first place. If you want to make more excuses go for it. Personally I find it funny when "martial artists" place themselves on a pedastal, or restrict their training in order to remain a big fish in their own pond.

[flow]

Lei Yun Fat,

I'm going to have access to a gym soon in Malaysia and will be getting ready for 15 days hardcore training in a very good gym in Bangkok.

The point is...I don't know how to train in a gym, I tried before but didn't really know what to do. The guy there could tell me what to do to get bigger but that's not what I wanted. I would still like to maximize my strenght, but minimize getting too big.

I've looked online, couldn't find proper weight lifting for martial arts tips. I mean I understood the high rep stuff but not sure how to apply it exactly.

Could u please, if u have time, tell me what I should do in order to achieve my goals in the gym:

What exercises should I focus on (just say the names i'll research them), how many reps, how heavy...

A quick post would be really appreciated mate,

Flow

[onesp1ng]

so you're against pulling your pine tree?

[onefocus]

pulling trees...

Well, it isnt like the "tree pulling" training is not documented, in current training in fast wrestling, tree pulling is done as a leg exercise. the trees are younger, but well rooted.

the people who practice this art become pretty adept at throwing an opponant. however they have many more training techniques to round out their abilities.

i believe that we all lift weights, but many prefer body weight exercise as opposed to dead weight training. both have their plus and minus points, but it is up to the person training to determine what works best for them. we wouldn't be "training" if we knew what we were doing.

it seems like word play, but where i'm from, words are supposed to have meanings.


peace

onefocus

[LeiYunFat]

There is really only one way to train, and that's to train a weak point, be it technique, strength, balance, whatever. If you get tired too easily, train your endurance. If you are too weak, get stronger. If you are too light, get heavier...etc. Obviously there is no one right way to train for all these things in every single person. However the point of this thread was weight training alternatives, so I don't really see what kind of point you're trying to make here, other than to state that methods like tree pulling have some benefits...(I for one don't believe you can get very far without using weight training in some form, as this type of exercise is supplemental at best)

Flow, what are your goals? I will say that unless you are already proportionally very strong, high rep training is not the best way to go at this point. High reps like >12 reps per set will give you endurance, but will only do so in that they will make you better at lifting that certain weight. If you want to lift more weight, <6 or 5 reps per set are ideal. Obviously you want to choose a weight that is challenging to you at whatever level you are, regardless of goals. The best, most athletic lifts are olympic lifts like power cleans, power snatches, squat snatches, and squat cleans. Lifts that are also great are squats, step-ups, deadlifts***(great for anything), overhead presses, good mornings, rows, and pull-ups. Everyone loves the bench press, and I won't talk it down, as horizontal pushing has a lot to do with many types of athletics. And of course, all these exercises have many different variations.

The most important thing when learning is learning form. Without it, you will be injured at some point in time, garunteed. To gain the most athletic benefit, it is best to lift as fast and as hard as possible. You want to train yourself to generate the same force (mass x acceleration) for an 80% load as much as a 100% load. The lighter it is, the faster you want to make it go.

Good places to learn are training.fitness.com (I frequent this forum), t-nation.com (a huge collection of articles from many qualified authors who all link to their sites). Youtube is also a great place to watch how lifts should be done. Be careful to know what you're looking for as with on Youtube, the good come with the bad. You're going to get jackasses with poor form as well as people with good form. Feel free to ask me any other questions you might have. If I don't know the answer I probably know a good place to find it.

[flow]

ok firstly, thanks a lot for your post on the subject, I'm doing research now, some interesting hints. But I need more if u have a sec.

Now I don't wanna take too much of your time, but if you're up to it -and if u're not it's alright I understand...

-Background: I'm 1.80m, 70kg. I'm gonna be in a crappy gym in a small village near the jungle in Malaysia, where it is extremely hot the equipment is rusty, they don\t't have everything etc...It's also cheap as hell that's why for once in my life i'll be able to afford hanging-out in a gym. I'll have 20 days intense preparation.

So, lets say I spend an hour a day there max (got running to do as well). I go there. What do I do first: running on the treadmill for warm up, stretching before weights or after...Then in an hour what are the exercises you reckon I should do, uniquely.

I'd rather stick to a very simple, straightforward series of the most useful exercises, and do it everyday the same looking for improvement.

You know the sport I do, it's Thai boxing, so you know how we train and I'm sure you could customize me a training programme according to these circumstances.

If u do, I will try it out seriously and see improvement, and post it here later. Some might benefit as well. You know I've never lifted, and I can do without, but I know any + is a ...+ so I wanna try. Please if u have time send me a list of exercises I should do in a hour, like how many sets of each etc...I'll print it out and do my own research regarding technical aspects of it. I'll do no more no less.

Also, u know I'm not faint hearted, I train "Ross" style, so I can take the pain and have a good cardio. I know I can trust you for a good workout plan, reason is u don't only lift u also train MA -i guess.



Thanks man

Flow

[LeiYunFat]

ok firstly, thanks a lot for your post on the subject, I'm doing research now, some interesting hints. But I need more if u have a sec.

Now I don't wanna take too much of your time, but if you're up to it -and if u're not it's alright I understand...

I'm more than happy to share my knowledge with you.

-Background: I'm 1.80m, 70kg. I'm gonna be in a crappy gym in a small village near the jungle in Malaysia, where it is extremely hot the equipment is rusty, they don\t't have everything etc...It's also cheap as hell that's why for once in my life i'll be able to afford hanging-out in a gym. I'll have 20 days intense preparation.

Crappy is totally fine. Hole-in-the-wall gyms tend to actually be great places where if you're lucky, you might even find some really strong people to help you out. I'm going to assume that you want to begin weight training seriously in order to more fully develop your potential and will therefore take into account that you plan to take this as far as you plan to cultivate your skill.

So, lets say I spend an hour a day there max (got running to do as well). I go there. What do I do first: running on the treadmill for warm up, stretching before weights or after...Then in an hour what are the exercises you reckon I should do, uniquely.

I'd rather stick to a very simple, straightforward series of the most useful exercises, and do it everyday the same looking for improvement.

You know the sport I do, it's Thai boxing, so you know how we train and I'm sure you could customize me a training programme according to these circumstances.

I actually don't know what exactly you'll be doing, but I am going to assume you're going to be tired and sore throughout your stay.

If you're looking to get stronger, here's what I'd do. Before I even set foot in a gym, I would research all the exercises I have in mind and practice them before I head to Thailand. Neural connections are important to make because the most effective exercises are called complex exercises. These exercises employ the use of more than one muscle group and require quite a bit of coordination and come with a risk of injury. I would use a broomstick to practice form for many reps a day.

Fights are in rounds, which is another way of saying that fights are in intervals. Running 20 miles is not interval training and is therefore not something I think is useful for the combatant. Instead, research High Intensity Interval Training, as it simulates fight conditions better than long distance running does. I do not recommend running the same day as lifting. I imagine that your regular MA training will take a lot out of you. If you have any left, lifting will take the rest.

I recommend three fullbody exercises a week. Stagger them how you will. The more you advance and learn about how your body reacts to certain stimuli, the more customized your workouts will become.

I recommend these exercises:
Letters connotate choice


A1.) Power snatch
A2.) Power clean (with press or jerk)

B1.) Barbell step-up
B2.) Front squat
B3.) Back squat

C1.) Chin Ups, either palms in or palms out. Added weight if you can do more than 10 reps/set
C2.) Some sort of barbell or dumbell row

D1.) Some sort of overhead press
D2.) Bench press or bench press variation

E1.) Deadlift or any deadlift variation

All sets should be 3-5 and all reps should be 3-6. Rest intervals should be atleast 90 seconds long. Exercises may be supersetted (A and B back to back, C and D, etc). This is just a rough sketch of something you might do, although since you will be having such a high volume of other stuff going on, this might not be ideal and you may want to do something like an upper/lower split. It looks something like this:

Day 1

A1.) Back Squat
A2.) Front Squat
A3.) Barbell step-up

B1.) Deadlift or deadlift variation
B2.) Good mornings

Day 2

A1.) Some sort of overhead press
A2.) Bench press or variation

B1.) Chin ups
B2.) Some sort of row

Being a fan of Olympic (oly) lifts, I recommend you learn power snatches and power cleans over most of the other lifts simply because they develop lots of explosiveness, power, and require a ton of coordination.

Also, u know I'm not faint hearted, I train "Ross" style, so I can take the pain and have a good cardio. I know I can trust you for a good workout plan, reason is u don't only lift u also train MA -i guess.

Actually I don't want you to totally trust me and take only my word for it. I want you to research all you can and gain some good knowledge. I pointed you to a few good places earlier, and I'll get you some article links shortly.

My training is actually with a lifting emphasis. I've put my martial arts to the back burner because of my situation with not having an instructor at the moment. I feel that I am compotent with what I know enough that I can focus on other things...but that's just me.

http://www.wannabebig.com/article.php?articleid=276

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2ZV4gE0eUE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt423i1w6vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71denvCLxP0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVB_rQFSsEg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81A7cAgWeKY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhQaHTKVbFg

[flow]

I'm more than happy to share my knowledge with you.

That's great. Rare to find people really willing to help on some Internet forum. All credits to you.

I am going to assume you're going to be tired and sore throughout your stay.

Spot on, I'm gonna be sore, but reasonably as I already train to a high intensity.

you're looking to get stronger

That's it, core strenght is all i'm interested in, explosiveness. I never run without adding sprinting intervals, I try never to be too nice to myself as well, because I'm not only interested in a bit of cardio or weight loss but I want to make the most what nature has given to me in terms of performance too. And Thai/kickboxing is my main focus. It also implies the fact that I can't get too big -let's say too heavy (have to remain around 70kg).

Exercises may be supersetted (A and B back to back, C and D, etc)

So I'm going to do like Monday, Wednesday and Friday of the full-body workout. Then on Tuesday I'll do Day 1 and on Thursday Day 2. I just don't understand the word "supersetted" does it mean I should add extra sets for some/every exercise? (English is not my mother tongue). Is the routine going to be cyclical like A1, B1, C1...or linear like A1, A1, A3, B1, B2 ...?

One last question, how do you warm up and down? Do you stretch before and after? And should I start by lifting 80% of my body weight or less/more?

Appart from it i shall stick to this plan and see what happens.

Actually I don't want you to totally trust me and take only my word for it
Well I won't give you my bank account number for now, but you've proved to be really heplful-willing to help on the subject. Furthermore, I don't know anyone who could help me with that as you do.

Thanks for the links and article I think I got the idea, I'll try to take it progressively. The Olymipc lifting is the stuff that really looks helpful in terms of overall strenght and coordination and that's what I wanna focus on.

So that's nearly about it, I'll be in Msia by the 1st of June, and after 20 days incorporating weights in my training i'll let you know how much I have benefited from it. I then head to Thailand where I might not be able to lift as much (6 hours boxing a day, extreme soreness) but will definitly go on with it afterwards if i really find it worth the time/energy investment.

See ya

Flow

[doc]

-Background: I'm 1.80m, 70kg. I'm gonna be in a crappy gym in a small village near the jungle in Malaysia, where it is extremely hot the equipment is rusty, they don\t't have everything etc...It's also cheap as hell that's why for once in my life i'll be able to afford hanging-out in a gym. I'll have 20 days intense preparation.



Flow

If you get tired of Malaysia (it's beautiful, but I hear from many foreigners that the attitudes of the various Malay people towards outsiders ranges from bad to atrocious), come on up to Phuket. I have the gym open. Three floors of air conditioned training, with one level of fairly new pro level weight equipment, and one level of aerobic machines. And great coaches.

We'll make sure that you're HAPPY.

LOL.