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  • what's a 'real' monk...


    Can anyone tell what's a 'real shaolin fighting monk' ? A lot of people name De Cheng or some others but who really know's who these people are ? Yes, their gongfu is great, no doubt about that but are they 'real shaolin gongfu monks' ? Does it matter anyway if they're monk or not..................not to me...

    A small question for Doc maybe....You're very honest about your opinions concerning the temple. Why only few people know that De Cheng is married and has children ? Is it wrong to tell that ? Is that a secret...You don't have to be a 'real' monk to teach gongfu or buddhism...

    Why? Why they still want to use 'real shaolin monk'....just for the $$$ ?

  • #2
    Real vs Fake

    From and July/August 2004 Kung Fu Magazine (with Shi DeCheng on the cover)

    Real versus Fake
    Shaolin Monk Shi Decheng on What Makes a Monk
    by Gene Ching

    In days of old, graduation from Shaolin Temple required more than just snatching a pebble from the master's hand. Every Shaolin aspirant had to pass the exit examination - a brutal rite of passage where he had to fight his way through the senior Shaolin monks - known as Dashanmen (literally "fighting mountain gate"). It's not clear when Shaolin stopped implementing Dashanmen, but there’s evidence of one as recent as the 1920's or 1930's. Around that time, a novice named Xu Shiyou failed a Dashanmen. Xu resorted to sneaking out and, despite never becoming a real Shaolin monk, went on to become a great fighter and a personal bodyguard for Mao Zedong. Since then, so many movies have dramatized Dashanmen that it seems more like fantasy than fact. Today Dashanmen only exists as a modern group-sparring form - a standard finale in many Shaolin shows. In the absence of an actual Dashanmen ritual, what constitutes a real Shaolin monk has become somewhat ambiguous.

    In the last twenty years, Shaolin Temple has gone from ruins to riches in a sudden, volatile rebirth. On the road back to its former glory, Shaolin faces a horde of new challenges. Exponential growth, political intrigue, commercial exploitation and cultural misunderstanding has raised some complex questions about Shaolin's latest incarnation, confusing many aficionados about what it means to be a real Shaolin monk. Currently, several Shaolin kung fu shows are touring the world. Some of these pop tours spotlight bald, robe-clad athletes who, despite their spectacular martial skill, might or might not be real monks. This has elicited more than a few accusations of fakery. There's no denying the existence of fake monks. Right now, there are some in America claiming to be an "ordained priest of Shaolin" who don't even speak Chinese (and might not have ever even been to China.) Charlatans pervade all martial arts, not just Shaolin, but it becomes more charged when it's a man of the cloth.

    But once you get past the fakes, there are real authentic monks at Shaolin too. Shaolin Monk Shi Decheng grew up at Shaolin Temple and has been one of Shaolin's leading martial emissaries around the world for a decade and a half. He's been an eyewitness to the changes brought to Shaolin following China's political upheavals and newfound religious freedom. He’s also traveled all over the world on cultural exchange missions, personally contributing to the worldwide impact of Shaolin today. Decheng is unperturbed by Shaolin's growing pains. For him, the more people that wear Shaolin robes, the better. With a keen dedication to the practice and a joyful heart, Decheng sees them all as vehicles for Shaolin culture and the essence of Zen to be passed on.

    The Monks After Mao
    Each Shaolin monk has a unique tale of indoctrination. Like most, Decheng loved martial arts from childhood. He was born in nearby Kaifeng to a martial family, descendents of a warrior clan that had passed ancient military examinations set by the emperors. Born as Chen Qingzhen, Decheng's initiation to the martial arts came from within his own family.

    Mao Zedong discouraged religion, but Deng Xiaopeng's Open Door policy of the late '70s permitted free religious practice again. It was then that Decheng first ventured to Shaolin in hopes of becoming a monk. When he arrived, the temple was in a dilapidated state. It had been burned down to its foundations by a warlord in 1928. There was some restoration during the Kuomintang period, but most of that came down again with Mao's Cultural Revolution of the late '60s. Shaolin wasn't the only temple in bad shape. After Mao, almost every temple in China was in ruins.

    Despite the hardships, a few monks did live at Shaolin Temple through those dark periods of China's history, specifically Great Masters Shi Suxi and Shi Suyun. Both of these venerated monks grew up at Shaolin and lived their entire lives there, with no home but the temple. After the Open Door policy, a few other old monks were invited to join them, and the process of rebuilding the temple began. But for many years, there was little left but faith to sustain the lineage.

    Decheng was part of the first generation of new, post-Cultural Revolution initiates at Shaolin. At the time, there were only about ten to twenty monks at Shaolin. A lot of students came, but only a few of them stayed on. Religious freedom meant people could come and go as they pleased. Only a few endured the difficulties to become monks.

    At first, Shi Suyun refused to take on disciples. He had lived a hard life and wanted to retire in peace. But Decheng was persistent and sincere, so Suyun accepted him along with some others. Suyun was a Shaolin monk that mastered both the scholarly (wen) and the martial (wu) aspects of Shaolin. As a Buddhist, Suyun was very humble. He never fought for authority or had any attachment to material gain. Even in his final years, after Shaolin had regained its prosperity, Suyun remained in a tiny room in the temple which he kept very simple until his passing in 1999. As a fighter, Suyun was renowned for his Xiaohongquan (small red fist) and Tongzigong (child exercises). Suyun defended the temple on many occasions. One of his most famous matches involved a large group of Japanese challengers. Alone, Suyun met their challenge, beat down every single challenger and defended Shaolin’s reputation. Even in his seventies, Suyun practiced Tongzigong and was most comfortable sitting in full lotus position.

    According to Decheng, Suyun was a strict master. "Mabu (horse stance practice) was not like today," recalls Decheng. "It wasn't three minutes, then five minutes, then ten minutes, progressively adding up. If you were instructed to stand in mabu, you just had to stand for the full duration. It was very hard." Despite his rigorousness, several dedicated students followed Suyun. Everyone lived and trained in Shaolin Temple together. Times were simpler then.

    Scholar Monks and Warrior Monks
    One of the most unique legacies of Shaolin Temple is the existence of two kinds of monks, wenseng (scholar monks) and wuseng (martial monks). Of course, there are monks like Shi Suyun who are qualified as both. In fact, the distinction between wenseng and wuseng doesn't really exist within the temple walls. Every monk living in the temple is required to follow the rules, such as vegetarianism and abstinence from liquor. But outside the temple it's more of a personal choice, and the difference is more evident. Since the wenseng focus on Buddhist study, they typically adhere to the rules. Despite being "real" Shaolin monks, some wenseng do not possess extraordinary kung fu skills, since that is not their focus. Some wuseng might be more lax, especially with vegetarianism. "It's not as rigid as stone," comments Decheng. "When you come to other countries, you need to adapt." Upon leaving the temple, Decheng was carnivorous for a while too, but has since returned to vegetarianism.

    Most martial artists only ever meet wuseng. "A wuseng is a person that has the ability to guard and protect the way," states Decheng. "They must understand Buddhism to protect it. They had to guard against robbers - there were a lot of precious sutras and artifacts - and also protect the gaoseng (senior monks), the ones without martial ability. By definition, wuseng must be Buddhist. No matter what, all monks must still have Zen. If you're Christian, you can learn Shaolin, but you cannot be a Shaolin monk. You don't have to be Buddhist to practice, but you need to be Buddhist to be a disciple."

    For Decheng and many of his generation, the master certified the next generation of monks. Decheng was indoctrinated directly by Shi Suyun. Decheng reflects on certification without Dashanmen. "In the old days, you had to fight all the way through the guard. If you win, then that’s your certification. If you can make it, then they recognize you. Now, your master tests you to be recognized. Certification is given by the master. You are tested on your understanding of both the scholarly and martial aspects of Shaolin and are graded. They say if you’re the best of the class. They say if you pass or not."

    "In general, all Buddhist temples have a similar certification process. They all have similar certificates. The student must take refuge [in the three treasures - Buddha, Dharma and Sangha]. But there are specific requirements for each temple - Shaolin Temple, Baimasi (White Horse temple - the first Buddhist Temple in China near to Shaolin), wherever."

    "For Shaolin wuseng, we don't really have a grading system. There's been talk about some sort of system, like yellow belts to black belts. But because Shaolin martial arts are so broad, so deep and so endless, how can you ever get a black belt?"

    Warrior Monks, the Wushuguan and the World
    As Shaolin prepared to enter the 21st century, reconstruction was foremost on everyone's mind. Shaolin received newfound popularity after Jet Li's debut movie, Shaolin Temple (1982), bringing tourists, students and a much-needed economic boost. Suddenly, there was a budget to rebuild the ancient halls. It's an ongoing process that continues today. By 1988, the temple cooperated with the government to create the Songshan Shaolin Temple Wushuguan, a facility designed to share Shaolin kung fu with the world. When it was founded, the Wushuguan was the largest facility devoted exclusively to kung fu in China, possibly the world. And it was staffed with a teaching faculty of Shaolin wuseng. Shi Decheng was part of the first generation of monks that taught at the Wushuguan, accepting the position as Chief Coach. "Inside the temple is kind of rough and poor," Decheng observes. "It's not easy for foreigners. The government built the Wushuguan for foreigners. It's a window to spread Shaolin culture. It has more modern conveniences so foreign students could stay and learn."

    The Wushuguan wuseng were housed in the Wushuguan, although at first some monks still stayed at the temple. "It's not that far," notes Decheng. "In the beginning, I went back and forth. During the slow periods, I went back and stayed at the temple." But eventually, separation between the Wushuguan and the temple grew. "When I lived in Shaolin Temple, there was chanting in the morning and evening," recalls Decheng. "In between, there was training and farming. At the Wushuguan, there was no Buddhism hall, so the chanting was skipped. In the morning and evening, we trained students in the martial arts. We had some classes to teach Buddhism too."

    One year after the Wushuguan opened, Decheng was part of the very first delegation of Shaolin monks to visit a foreign country on a friendship mission. Decheng journeyed to France alongside his martial brothers, Shi Deyu, Shi Yanzi and Shi Yongshou, for 17 days. This pioneered a new movement for Shaolin - wuseng spreading Shaolin dharma overseas through the martial arts. Now students didn’t have to go to Song Mountain. The mountain came to them. For Decheng, it was the start of a continuing mission, one that has taken him to dozens of countries across the globe. Other Wushuguan monks did likewise. Shi Deyu is still at the Wushuguan, but he continues to travel abroad regularly. Shi Yanzi immigrated to England where he opened a Shaolin school. Shi Yongshou is now in Guangdong. In fact, almost all of the Shaolin monks currently teaching in America once taught at the Wushuguan.

    Donning Robes and Shaving Heads
    Alongside the Wushuguan, private martial arts schools began to rise at an alarming rate. The valley surrounding Shaolin Temple became inundated with privately-run schools, mostly catering to Chinese students. And with those schools came restaurants, tourist shops and sundry stores, not only for the two million tourists sightseeing at Shaolin each year, but also for the tens of thousands of students and their visiting families. It became so chaotic that the local government and the temple combined forces to purge the valley in a controversial forced relocation program. Only the Wushuguan was allowed to remain. Some schools collapsed. Others moved to nearby Dengfeng City in the foothills of Mount Song, about seven miles from Shaolin Temple.

    In February of 2001, Shi Decheng left the Wushuguan to open his own private school in Dengfeng. The Shi Decheng Wushu Center of Songshan Shaolin is modest by Dengfeng proportions, only a few hundred students. It is situated conveniently at the northwest corner of Dengfeng, close to the road to Shaolin Temple. He opened his school because of popular demand. His travels brought him an international reputation and many students sought him out. They still go to the Wushuguan looking for him. Having his own school allowed Decheng more flexibility and to be more charitable. "There are some poor students that I give a discount [on tuition] in case they really want to learn," smiles Decheng. "It gives them some more opportunities."

    Currently, there are about eighty registered martial arts schools in Dengfeng. Only about thirty of these schools are actually run by Shaolin monks. The other fifty are run by folk masters - kung fu experts who never entered the clergy. The biggest school, the Shaolin Temple Taguo Martial Arts Academy, has a student body of 13,000 students. Taguo's headmaster, Grandmaster Liu Baoshan, is not a monk at all. In fact, he’s not even Buddhist; he's a communist and has been for over half a century. However, like all of the other eighty schools near Shaolin, Taguo has a demonstration team. Almost all Shaolin demonstration teams will don robes and shave their heads, whether they are monks or not. Some might even go on international demonstration tours posing as monks.

    This is where what is real and what is "fake" becomes grey as a disciple robe. The performance tours complicate the issue; some are "official" and some are not. Some of the unofficial tours use private school non-monk demo teams. Some of them use monks that have left the temple for the Wushuguan or their own private school. Some are not even from Shaolin. There have even been a few shows by non-Chinese students who have trained under Shaolin monks abroad; they might not have even been to Shaolin, or even China, ever. But it’s a double-edged sword. Some of the "official" tours have certified monks that trained at Shaolin for only a year or two and were then granted a wuseng title, just for the tour. So unofficial tours can be a mixed bag of real or fake, but official tours may have some performers that are only marginally real too.

    Since China began reconstruction, Buddhism has worked towards organizing all Chinese monks under such bodies as the National Buddhist Association of China (where Shaolin Abbot Shi Yongxin holds a seat as vice-chairman). Strictly speaking, they have the authority to certify any real Buddhist monk. Buddhist monks sometimes travel from temple to temple, so some of the fully certified Shaolin monks were actually trained at different monasteries. It's also worthy of note that some monks who took their vows prior to the formation of this organization have yet to be "grandfathered" into the program. And of course, wuseng don't necessarily fall under their jurisdiction since it is secular to Shaolin.

    Lately, all over the world, students don robes as their official uniform, despite not being monks or even Buddhist. While some critics deride these robe-wearers as "fakes," Decheng views it as a blessing. "It proves people like to wear the robes," smiles Decheng. "People want to know more about Shaolin and dress like it. It’s a way of promotion - the more people wear it, the more impressions. Actually, it's great, because in the old days we never thought it could spread so much overseas." One of the basic precepts of Buddhism is not to be possessive of the teachings, so the monks certainly aren't possessive of their fashion.

    Spreading Shaolin culture is more involved than just teaching kung fu. Intrinsic to Shaolin kung fu is Zen Buddhism, and that's the real teaching. "Some students complained that there were no statues of Buddha for worship [at the Wushuguan]," reflects Decheng. "But Buddha is in your heart. If you think Buddha is in front of you, it's in front of you. If you chant without using your heart, it's useless. Better not to chant." To identify a real monk from a fake, don't look at the robes. Don't look at the shaved head. Don't look at the kung fu skill. That's just skin, flesh and bones. Look at the heart. That's the marrow. And marrow is the essence of Shaolin Zen.
    Last edited by Steve; 05-21-2004, 09:52 AM.
    I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed.
    "Life can keep providing the rain and I'll keep providing the parade."
    "I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle."
    "Whatever guy said that money don't buy you pleasure didn't know where to go shopping"


    • #3
      Decheng is not married, nor does he have children. However, his personal passport defines him as being married. The reason being, it is easier for a Chinese citizen to get a visa to a foreign country if he is married (better chance of him coming back). So, it is not uncommon for the Chinese to portray themselves as married, solely for that purpose.

      Now, I've heard rumors about two years ago, that Decheng had a wife and kids in Austria. I have not been able to confirm that. Also, when I confronted him about that rumor, he denied it. I know Decheng very well, I would be incredibly surprised if he had ever had "relations".

      You might be thinking about Yanming, whom, I've heard from many very reliable sources, that he has a wife and two children in China. (and now, "more" in America). Lipeng had been married, with a child. Also, ALLEGEDLY, I've heard rumors about Guolin coming from a peasant familial background, however, this has been unconfirmed, and should be considered purely as bull**** hearsay until proven otherwise. The monks in Houston from what I know are untouched, so I doubt these stories can be backtracked to them.

      There are other monks in China who left the temple and became Su Jia Di Zi, and started families. Shi De Hong, my qi gong master, whom I might be bringing back to the US in August/September, has a family. He again teaches at the wushu guan, goes by his monk name when he teaches, but does not portray himself to be a current monk.

      More monks, more stories. Beware the smoke and mirrors that surround these guys.
      Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

      "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

      (more comments in my User Profile)


      • #4 married. His wife and child(ren?) are living in dengFeng. I have this from different an very reliable sources, believe me. But that's not my point, i don't care they're married, have children, or other "extra's".
        My questions is..why they still want to act as a monk ? I think Lipeng is the only one in US that's speaking very open about it. Why nobody else want to say that they have girfriend, wife, children,ea.
        The only reason I can see is $$$ and their status...what else could it be ?

        btw the "monk's" in Houston ....well it doesn't matter.... like You said doc , beware the smoke and mirrors...


        • #5
          Well, that's a pretty definiitive statement. In intelligent conversations, once someone makes a statement such as that, one should back it up with some sort of proof.

          I personally have no proof as to what Decheng has done with his private life. But, I have enough supporting information, in my mind, to consider Decheng as unmarried.

          I've known him, well, since 1995. Since then, I've been to China fourteen times, and have spent, cumulatively, well over a year in Dengfeng, most of the time with him. I spent almost four months with him this year, in my house in the US. I've met his parents, and most of his siblings, including his one brother who has been China's national sanda champion over the past nine years. I'm fairly close with him also. I've also spent a lot of time with the various people that run his school.

          Not once has there been any suggestion that Decheng has his own family. And, I might add, I'm a fairly perceptive guy. I think after all of this time, I would have noticed something if there were little Decheng kiddies somewhere in his life.

          But, I've been wrong before. This time I don't think so, but I'll keep an open mind about this. I'll research it some more when I get there next month. But, in the meantime, maybe it's time you offered some back up for your allegations.

          We're all ears.

          As for the monks in Houston, I know Xing Hao and Xing Ying well. I can't attest as to what they do in the personal lives. But, as with Decheng, creating a fantasy life around them just so that they can make money, is not in their fabric.
          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

          (more comments in my User Profile)


          • #6

            Maybe first I have to say that I'm not intelligent and I don't come here to make troubles...Where i've got the information ? I've got it from someone who knows him(deCheng) for over 20 years and from a friend who is currently at shaolin village.

            This is a small Quote from his mail (Thu, 29 Apr 2004 13:01:04 GMT )
            ...I visited 1 month ago Shi De Cheng ( He has a wife and children how he must be a very good dad) and I see sometimes Shi De Yang and Shi Xing Du and a lt of monks in temple but I feel like a lot of things has...

            Once again, i don't come here to make troubles or to discuss about real or fake..i don't care about it. I'm just wondering why people like to use the name..


            • #7
              Care to identify your source? And, just out of curiosity, what was he going to say about Deyang?

              Your informant is not too well informed, lol. For if Decheng is a daddy, he's not a very good one. He is spending, between Europe and Las Vegas, almost nine or ten months out of China. And, while he's in China, he lives in his little one room area in his school.

              I wouldn't exactly call that a good father...
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)


              • #8
                No Babies

                I have spent most of the past week with Shi Xing Wei, who has known Shi De Cheng for a very long time and is his disciple, says "DeCheng No Babies".
                I do not have a psychiatrist and I do not want one, for the simple reason that if he listened to me long enough, he might become disturbed.
                "Life can keep providing the rain and I'll keep providing the parade."
                "I would just like to say that after all these years of heavy drinking, bright lights and late nights, I still don't need glasses. I drink right out of the bottle."
                "Whatever guy said that money don't buy you pleasure didn't know where to go shopping"


                • #9
                  You guys don't know Chinese people very well. Haha, Chinese are very deceptive. Face of a buddha but a devil heart. Maybe not a devil heart, but you get my point. Chinese are damn deceptive. And good at hiding it behind buddha faces. With a nation that does so many stupid things, Chinese must be good at covering. I don't doubt some of these guys have families. You can get as close as you can, but you still won't know them as well as you think..... Doc. Even a nice buddha guy with a buddha face. He has many things you don't know of. And won't know unless he wants you to know. Obviously he doesn't. So you won't find it out. But just to let you know. Chinese know how to cover things. It's typical for foreigners to not be able to see past the buddha faces and see what's being hidden. They can do many things in their lives you will never know about. Even if you are married to them. So, just don't think you know all of them. If they don't want you to, you will never know.

                  A mi tuo Fo
                  -Xing Jian


                  • #10
                    Trust me, I'm fully aware of how deceptive the Chinese can be. It's all part of the smoke and mirrors, isn't it? It's one of the things that makes this web site go round, the whole "where's the truth" aspect of China and all that we discuss about it. Deception. What a concept. You think that they're better at it than us westerners. And you think that we're ignorant enough to not notice it.

                    But we're not.

                    I have an open mind. I'll look into all of this some more.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)


                    • #11
                      Just that most foreigners don't. Mainly because they don't know enough Chinese people or haven't actually been in China. But you have, so maybe. That's good. Just don't be surprised if you ever find out something you never thought of before.

                      I think China is more deceptive than USA. But I don't know everything about USA. In China the government is funny. They do such silly things then have to cover it pretty quick. Even in small things like getting an apartment for a foreigner. That foreigner better have a really smart Chinese friend. Cuz the contract is all in Chinese. And as you know, Chinese like to cheat ignorant foreigners who look at their smiles and buddha faces and think nothing of it. USA, I think doesn't do that. As far as professional things like an apartment contract. They wouldn't just do that to someone I think. Am I wrong? Maybe it happens, but not as much as Chinese. Anyone in China would do that. Even a nice buddha monk. So maybe you know a lot of it now. But don't be surprised if "De Cheng, Many Babies". (I personally don't know, just saying, it's possible)

                      A mi tuo Fo
                      -Xing Jian


                      • #12
                        well, I can tell you one thing...I've heard those rumors about De Cheng too, but I mean, some of the rumors you hear are pretty out there.

                        From a fly on the wall, Yong Xin supposedly dressed one monk down, do what you want, just don't let it show...

                        I can tell you another thing, celibacy sucks...

                        I think monks having families is a good thing. It's a step forward, not backwards.
                        "Arhat, I am your father..."
                        -the Dark Lord Cod


                        • #13
                          What about the rumors of YX's fam?

                          LOL... Now there's a discussion, now that we're talking about monk daddy d's...
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)


                          • #14
                            Doc, I find this debate that goes round and round quite quizical.

                            I think the guys here are saying that the Chinese are way more adept than we westerners of taking a different topology, and not just giving it face, but actually living it. They have had to do it with every new emperor, every new dynasty, including the latest "communist" one. Its a psychological defense that is ingrained in them for 4,000 years, and probably goes back much further, its not just an individual trait, its a Chinese trait - its in their DNA. I qualify this in context because there are plenty of other countries where this type of topology exists where the nationals are just as adept at accommodating whatever prevailing topology.

                            Its a feature of our western freedom of speech that we can differ from the prevailing topology, without the fear of being taken to a sports stadium and receiving a bullet in the back of the head. Its one of the biggest differentiators in what makes the West and China so different.

                            So when we westerners come along and say to these simple peasant martial monks, "Wow, your amazing! Here's the deal: I'll give you more money than you could ever dream anyone would be silly enough to give you if you teach me gongfu. The only string attached is that you allow me to put you on a pedestal and you meet my expectations of what a 'celibate monk' is." its a no brainer for them! Wives, kids get shipped out of sight and move in with relatives, who happily take them on in exchange for an income stream that means they should never have to worry about tilling the fields, let alone a failed harvest or who is going to pay the next doctors bill again. They all find it incredibly natural to adopt our required "topology". And I say topology but actually we are just getting them to kowtow to our ill concieved idealistic delusions.

                            I'm not implying that all Chinese are like this... some are prepared to speak out against the current or projected topology, those in democratic environments clearly are much more at liberty to do this, many in China wind up in sports stadiums with bullets in the back of their heads... with millenia of precisely this reality as a cultural back-drop, living the prevailing topology is not just optional its a survival skill, so it will continue to be the norm in the Chinese-Chinese popluation.

                            Where's the reality test in this? It was never necessary for someone to be celibate to be a buddhist practitioner in most of the Far East, and the Chinese don't judge if they have families or not. The fact that some make out that they are monks by our 'celibate' definition (whether really celibate or not), all, celibate and pretending are only doing it so they can profit at the expense of others... now that isn't Cha'n Buddhist according to my understanding of it.

                            We made the mistake in the first place of requiring that they were celibate (to comply with our delusive projections). They are just doing what their DNA tells them to do... call it smoke and mirrors if you like, its just how they are.

                            So if he has a family, its feasible that this is how your relationship with De Cheng started, you wanted him to be celibate, he pushed his family below the radar...

                            Look if De Cheng has a family, is he any less an excellent Shaolin (Cha'n buddhist) Monk and Emmisionary? It won't make him a fake monk in anyone's eyes, only those who are still trapped in this "celibate delusion". If it causes your relationship with him to crack, or causes you to judge him any differently, I think that would be the second mistake after encouraging him to act out the delusion in the first place.

                            For all these reasons, please consider dropping this reoccuring argument about the celibate virtuosity of these guys and please consider not using it to discredit others Warriors / Monks struggling out there. Least of all because I don't want to see you stalled on the steps of enlightment any longer. Its not Buddhist to be judgemental, its all aboutt being perceptive, not about whether a person is right or wrong.

                            Finding a teacher is finding someone who behaves on his path to enligthenment in a way that you can aspire to. From what I have heard De Cheng is a person that you can aspire to in this sense whether married, gay, celibate, whatever. I think if he does have a family, and you could validate that with him without implying that it makes him any less worthy, it might be a huge advancement for you in your relationship as well as on your path to enlightenment.



                            • #15
                              Heh, here is another old thread I found while I was reading around the forums. So sorry for the delayed response. At any rate I think because the "monks" enter shaolin at a very young age their lives are of basically Shaolin Temple and martial arts. As they get older past their teens of course they body goes through changes and yes they discover girls. So maybe there is a few situations were children come along but to me it's not really a big deal. I think most of the monks declare themselves "monks" because they spent 10-20 years, essentially their lives, there at Shaolin. Who are we to strip them of their experiences and declare them "fake"?

                              As far as the Houston monks SXH is not married. I can't speak for any of the others. I do know that SXH is open to marriage and having a family one day but in my eyes that wouldn't take anything away from him. He is who he is.
                              I had a conversation with SXH one day about this topic. SXH basically said life in China is wayyyy different. The way I understood it is if you train and live at Shaolin you are a "monk" and have to always present yourself as a monk. But life is different here in the USA. So SXH doesn't have to live the life of a monk here.


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