gong fu vs. wushu

[zachsan]

mortal, walking into a dangerous situation thinking that you're prepared because of whatever style you've trained in will cause your ass to be handed to you.

if the main (or only) goal of your gongfu training is to kick ass, stop training. you are being conned into spending lots of money for something that won't do what you think it will do. yes, gongfu has plenty of training and little tricks that will help you in a fight, but there are much easier and less expensive ways to make yourself much more dangerous, if you really feel a need for that (like buying a gun).

the most practical, not to mention mentally healthy, benefits of gongfu training can also be achieved through wushu or just about any martial art training. the best way to choose is based on your personal interests and tastes. and please, please don't walk around telling yourself how bad you are, no matter what MA you practice, or you're putting yourself in serious danger.

- zach

[kirvixus]

well I don't want to train just to be able to whoop ass, I was just curious which is better for self defense. and if I have to practice something 10,000 times to learn the application I will. I can be patient.

[pazman]

Mortal, I'll put my money on a conditioned swimmer over a fat slob who says he practices gonfu any day. Sure, there is an internal aspect to gongfu, but without conditioning you won't have a chance to use all that internal power. Look at boxing and you'll find the same thing....the base is conditioning but when you see somebody like Ali fight there's clearly an internal aspect. And yes, people do need to hit pads and spar, but we're discussing the validity of forms here.

Learning traiditonal solo forms are a good start....they combine conditioning, coordination, posture, etc. If you aren't coordinated and don't know how to move with power, then learning the applications is pretty tedious and not really worthwhile. Even in my Aikido dojo, and Aikido is traditionally partner 'application' based, there are two solo routines we do every class (though they don't resemble gongfu routines).

As for 'applications,' yes, they are taught in Dengfeng. I practised plenty with Shi DeCheng. Mostly, it was to show me how to move and apply power in the form itself. The problem with application based training, however, is that it usually is a mishmash of techniques that really do not show body how to move naturally. That's why I've never really liked American Kenpo....some schools actually brag about how many separate applications they teach. To me, this just narrows your mind with respect to the creative and spontaneous aspect of live combat.

[shaolinstylee]

Good post Pazman...

Too many people get too into 1000 techs.. But I'll bring up one of the oldest cliche` sayings around the martial arts.....

I'm not scared of the guy with 10,000 different kicks, I'm scared of the guy with 1 kick, whose practiced it 10,000 times.

[mortal]

The bottom line is wushu training is not good for practical self defense.

As far as a gun goes. Every situation doesn't merit shooting somebody. Beating them up is much more fun.

Wushu is not meant for fighting. I have a friend who is short and skinny. Not too athletic. I would pit him against a world class swimmer anyday. Reason being is my friend has true killer instinct. The world class swimmer would sense this and be afraid. Even if he wasn't afraid he would second guess himself and get knocked out.

You all coud think what you want. Having balls is the main ingredient most martail artists lack. That is why they train to make up for the fact that they are pussies. That is why street fighter( real tuff guys) consider martrial arts in this country a joke. I was a street fighter before I started training. After I learned how to kick someones ass ten different ways I found I didn't need to prove it anymore.

If some wushu champ wants to come and prove to me it could be used for fighting. I look forward to teaching them a lesson.

[zachsan]

if you think staring down someone with a knife, waiting to stab you in the neck, is fun, then once again, you're in the martial arts for entirely wrong reasons. in my opinion.

- zach

[mortal]

I don't do stare downs that is for suckers. I just start swinging hard and fast. If I even think someone is thinking about really hitting me I will knock them out. With no staring, yelling or pushing.

You keep bringing up examples of guns and knives. In brooklyn more often then not we just use our fists(and the occasional bottle). Good luck with your wushu training I am sure you are a true warrior of the streets.

[zachsan]

i'm not a true warrior of the streets. true "warriors of the streets" are punks with chips on their shoulders that either wise up or don't live past 25. i'm a martial artist. i don't practice wushu, but i am more than willing to defend it philosophically. and no, that does not mean handing someone's ass to them.

- zach

[kirvixus]

yeah ok mortal I'm sure all these martial artists are a bunch of pussies compared to your friend with "true killer instinct". Just because martial artists don't beat the crap out of people as much as your friends doesn't mean they couldn't. maybe they don't fight as much because there are many more peaceful solutions than violent ones. and if you beat someone up just cause you think they're going to throw a punch then you've got some problems.

[dogchow108]

I dunno, I guess then that if I’m staring at someone with a knife wanting to stab me in the neck, I’d either ask for him (or more likely her) not to, or I’d wish I had stayed in swimming lessons.

Either way, herein lies the difference between wushu and shaolin, martial arts and hard work, kung fu vs wushu. These three are not necessary analogous with each other.

Martial arts are very simply this: how to efficiently win a fight using techniques that you have learned for the purpose of winning a conflict physically. That’s just simply it. To suggest that training in martial arts (and no offence by this to anyone) for the purpose of fighting and winning is not okay is, in my opinion, a joke.

However, to train in "gong fu" is an entirely different concept, one that encompasses the training of martial arts rather than martial arts encompassing it. Ill credit everyone here with understanding what "gong fu" means, and will just get to the point. Wushu IS gong fu. You are training hard to get good at something, you are a working man (or/also woman in the modern context). That is very simply gong fu. in wushu, your gongfu is put into refining the usually visual but sometimes other aspect of moves you've learned and mastering physically overwhelming compulsories, and other routines. It is HARD WORK. I suggest for anyone who's never gone to a wushu school to look some stuff up they do or try kicking and punching and doing other repetitive elements for 2 hours straight. I don’t respect wushu as a martial art (ironically enough, considering its definition) but as gong fu, you would have to be insincere not to acknowledge its prevalence as an embodiment of skill refinement.

In martial arts, your gong fu is spent learning (or should, at least) a generally wider variation of things, like manifesting fa jing, chang jing, twisting power, endurance, timing, distance, sensitivity, technique application (btw- of COURSE applications are important. without applications it’s not a Martial art, its just a Pretty one) and often a philosophy of some sort.

I really want to be clear here about something- you might reach a point where you realize no conflict is better than conflict, but the fact is when learning a martial art, you are learning how to fight plain and simple. If you are not learning the important element of coming out of a conflict alive or unharmed then you are probably learning a MARTIAL-LIKE art. An AS-IF martial art and I would personally suggest a review of what you consider relevant to fighting. Famous martial arts are made famous, originally, but producing or being produced by awesome, sometimes legendary fighters who became this way because they could very simply kick ass.
But again, I want to refute the veil of fantasy people seem to have over their eyes. its for fighting. doing forms hundreds and thousands of times is as good for your martial ability as modern wushu is unless you are learning what it is you are doing or at least learning how to issue force in a way that you previously were unaware of. This is, essentially, what martial art gong fu is.

People often overemphasize the "art" in martial art, and essentially on the basis of its being "underemphasized" end up consuming their entire venture on this half of the definition. Again, I will mention, if you are learning taolu and nothing else, no martially applicable way of issuing great energy or actually learning techniques that you can use to incapacitate an attacker or target, then you are simply learning a martial-like art- an art that looks martial- and I really kind of feel sorry that you have somehow been tricked into misunderstanding the concept. If you are looking for a physical discipline that is demanding but peaceful, I would suggest yoga, meditation, or some other thing of that type.

My 2.5 cents,

DC

[mortal]

Good post. I couldn't have said it better.

[zachsan]

dogchow -

you make a number of good points that i believe are very close to the truth. but i disagree with you on a few.

first, if you practice gongfu today - any kind of gongfu - you are practicing something that has a long, rich history of spiritual and mental development, and a philosophical component. its roots were found in the shaolin temple, a buddhist monastery. it is not that gongfu contains martial arts as part of its training. gongfu is a martial art, and, as a complete martial art, it contains elements that are noncombative, and meant for the improvement of the human being. with the exception of some modern rapid CQC training systems (krav maga and RCAT, which are truly all about fighting and winning), the martial arts have always been about much, much more than simply fighting.

you're right that many people place too much emphasis on the "art" aspect of martial arts. to these people, i would agree with you in saying, take yoga or something similar. but there are also people that place way too much emphasis on the "martial" aspect, and these are the same ones that are constantly saying things like "try that on me on the street and i'll hand your ass to you". to these peole, in exactly the same vein, i say, buy a gun.

second, the martial aspects of gongfu were invented many, many years ago, as the most efficient means possible of keeping yourself safe in situations that were likely to arise at the time. for instance, a sword duel, or self-defense against a small gang of axe-wielding assholes. they trained in sword, staff, spear, and even wooden bench, because these were tools that there was a reasonable chance of finding and using. the martial arts changed to include what military technology existed.

times have changed. there are no more sword duels or axe-wielding gangs. now we have gun-wielding gangs instead. so, true "martial" skills have changed along with the available technology and social climate, just as they always have in the past. now, you're not gonna get in a knife duel. someone's gonna walk up behind you and stab you in the back, and that's the "fight". today's soldiers learn how to shoot, not how to cut with a sword. the police and military have created systems (the aforementioned krav maga and RCAT, among others) to help people deal with the situations that they realistically would be facing today. these are easy to learn, dependable, and probably the best response to situations in which you're unarmed or using a weapon is not appropriate. also, in some curriculums, you can learn the legal considerations that are a very real part of civilian self-defense today.

but we still take gongfu, an old system with old defenses against old problems. yes, it's still very "martial", just as much as it's always been. but it's not gonna turn you into an unstoppable badass anymore. and if that's what you're paying for, you're being cheated out of your money. that's all.

- zach

[mortal]

If you really beleive that kung fu came from the shaolin temple you need to read up on your facts. Kung fu was around long before shaolin temple. It was made up in india and perfected by bandits and soldiers over time. Many of them spent time at the temple but that is not where or why kung fu training began.
True traditional kung fu style was trained to kill the enemy in the shortest amount of time with the least amount of effort. It was brutal plain and simple. Only in future times has the spiritual and physical benefits of training been focused on by main shaolin temple.

Applications are usually focused on in most other forms of kung fu. In shaolin it is more about talou because that is all the younger generations care about. Looking good. Shaolin is becoming empty movements. Remnants of what it once was. The shaohongquan form taught and practiced by most monks is a perfect example of what I mean. It lacks the martial movements. It is basically just an excercise. In other styles it is all about fighting and crippling others.
In shaolin it is whoever has the lowest stance and best postures. To each his own, but don't say training all kung fu is useless in making you a MUCH better fighter.



P.S. By your standards I have a chip on my shoulder. I'm 32 and still alive, go figure.

[zachsan]

most gongfu which we train in today has in some form its roots in shaolin. anyway, this will be my last post on this thread, because it's starting to remind me of middle school. but i'll conclude by saying that, as you've demonstrated, the distinction between "gongfu" and "wushu" is arbitrary, and decided by whoever's bashing who's style at the time.

walk proud, Street Warrior.

- zach

[dogchow108]

well damn, this was a fun topic and i was hoping to reply. well, if you feel like PMing me about this subject, zachsan, please feel free.