proving existence of the mind(not thebrain)

[zachsan]

BL, that's pretty much the definition of an ad hoc hypothesis. it's a hypothesis invented to explain away evidence that seems to refute the original assertion. someone asserts "NDEs give people glimpses of the afterlife". someone points out NDEs vary greatly between subjects, and thus probably aren't connected. then the ad hoc hypothesis is offered "well, the afterlife is different for each person". the problem is that it assumes to be true exactly that which is in question, namely, that NDEs have anything to do with the afterlife in the first place.

of course there would never be a way to prove the assertion. but we can prove, and have proven, that experiences almost identical to those of NDEs can be simulated when certain parts of the brain are electricially stimulated, or with drugs. this would suggest that NDEs are only products of the brain acting abnormally.

[onefocus]

i believe that everything is not to be proven, even if it can be proven. and that everything that is supposedly proven, with enough time, may be proven false.

peace


onefocus

[zachsan]

when i'm talking about "proof" here i don't mean it literally, because you're absolutely right that "everything that is supposedly proven, with enough time, may be proven false". but we can, should and do come to provisional conclusions about things based on the best evidence we've got. so i guess i really should say "we can demonstrate, and have demonstrated, that experiences almost identical to those of NDEs can be simulated when certain parts of the brain are electricially stimulated, or with drugs".

it's just common sense. ideas need to be accepted or rejected based on the evidence, even if they might turn out to be wrong later. taking a wild guess, based on nothing more than a hunch, simply because you think that existing evidence might be proven wrong later, is nonsensical.

imagine what would happen in the courts if they worked that way. "well, all the evidence suggests that the defendant was not at the scene of the crime... but you know, that might turn out to be wrong later, and i've got a real hunch about this, so... the death sentence it is."

[master splinter]

one thing my teacher pointed out to me when i said something almost identical to what you said about how the brain can induce these kind of visions... the thing he pointed out was, all brain activity ceased. yet i think that these visions couldve taken place a split second before they died and without concept of time, couldve seemed like an eternity to them.

[zachsan]

well think about it. when these people recounted their stories, they were relying on memory, a function of the brain. if there were truly a period during which the brain was completely shut down (which i doubt, probably at least the brain stem was still active), the brain would have no memory of that period, or even knowledge that any time had passed. so any memory contained in the brain would have to have originated either before or after the brain "shut down", not while it was shut down.

this goes back to what i was saying before. the alternative "theory" is that the immortal mind relayed information from the spiritual realm to the brain after the brain was, uh, rebooted. so then we have two explanations, one based on a significant body of evidence about the brain and how it works, and one based on metaphysical speculation. since what we know about the brain already is sufficient to explain the images and feelings these people experienced, there's no reason to bring metaphysics into it.

[daodejing]

This is a particularly nasty question that is going to get worse the harder you try to answer it. The very notion of substance dualism, of mind and body as seperate entities, is the basis of western dualist philosophy.

And if you want my opinion, dualist philosophy is a terribly contagious mental illness.

[master splinter]

so do you believe in alternate realms of existence? the realm where ideas are born for example? i think it was aristotle who said that an idea is immortal, but can only be created by the mind. you can destroy the physical manifestation of an idea, but you cannot destroy the concept once it is born. so what realm do these ideas exist on?
hence the term uni+verse, uni=one, verse=thought.

[zachsan]

aristotle also believed the earth was flat, and that heavy things fall faster than light things. the idea that an idea or concept exists on some plane other than people's memories is completely unsupported.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

this would suggest that NDEs are only products of the brain acting abnormally.

How ironic.

[daodejing]

If you begin to seriously beleive in other realms, there will be other realms. This lends to what I said earlier about dualist philosophy being a mental illness.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

and some folks just think waaay too much !!

( ps : other realms daodejing ???? Who's disillusioned on what ????...................... keeping it real re: pm conversation or what??? We won't mention demons but .............. I told you to trust no-one )............... Get a grip already !

Lotus B

[daodejing]

We create our own reality. That's all I'm saying.

[shaolinstylee]

and some folks just think waaay too much !!

( ps : other realms daodejing ???? Who's disillusioned on what ????...................... keeping it real re: pm conversation or what??? We won't mention demons but .............. I told you to trust no-one )............... Get a grip already !

Lotus B

wow, you, telling dao to get a grip, now thats something.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

We create our own reality. That's all I'm saying.

Glad some of it sank in then

cheers

BL

[zachsan]

on this board dao the phrase "we create our own reality, that's all" needs a hell of a lot of clarification. i clicked "agree" to your previous post since i think the concept of dualism is a kind of delusion... but upon reflection i have no idea if that's what you actually meant at all.