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**daodejing** · 04-28-2003, 01:49 AM

In reference to your question, "what kinds of benefits can I expect?" You may not like the answer.
Don't expect anything. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming once quoted an old proverb in saying that, in regards to qigong, "Expectation is the worst emotional disturbance." And it's true. The benefits of qigong practice are many and varied, it depends upon the individual. However, if you read up on things that have happened to other people and then convince yourself that these things will happen in your own practice, this is extremely bad. If you need a detailed explanation of why its bad, purchase The Root of Chinese Qigong by the aforementioned author. If you like that book and want to go deeper, read Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qigong. But mostly just practice, and let your body do whatever it wants to do in order to balance itself out.

As for when to practice............ everyday. Unless you have alot of sex. Do not practice qigong for at least 24 hours before and after sexual activity. Ejaculation causes a large amount of qi to be lost if you're male. Traditionally it was believed that the best times to practice are just after midnight, sunrise, just after noon, and sunset. These are the times when the qi of the earth/atmosphere/whatnot is changing over from yin to yang and vice versa.

**dave** · 04-28-2003, 02:13 AM

mark: if you are interested in Qigong, just take some classes and practise. Dont worry too much about what to "expect" or what people tell you that you can achieve. Just train and develop skill. its not some amazing thing, but a skill like any other that takes much practise to do right.

i know for myself even now its hard for me to do some things, as to use body structure to support me, and move in a relaxed and fluid way without ouvert muscular strength is very difficult (especially after karate training for 13 years!). The main thing like any other skill is repeated practise. Its like a bank - the more money you put in, the more interest you get and can do things with. it just takes itme.

daodejing: it seems we have differing opinions and experiences on things

Do not practice qigong for at least 24 hours before and after sexual activity. Ejaculation causes a large amount of qi to be lost if you're male. Traditionally it was believed that the best times to practice are just after midnight, sunrise, just after noon, and sunset. These are the times when the qi of the earth/atmosphere/whatnot is changing over from yin to yang and vice versa.

i disagree with this statement based on what i havebeen taught and own experiences. Ejeculation technically loses "jing" (essence) NOT Qi, though in everything we do - breathing and even thinking, uses Qi (energy). Thats why after you ejeculate, there is a feeling of emptiness and most guys need to take a 15 min nap

if you have a healthy/active sex life - then no qigong would be possible according to you! The main thing is to practise regularly, if anything to relax and regain/conserve your energy so you can use it for other things. The times to practise are not so important - more important is regularity. For me, i practise usually between 5-7am and 5-7pm as well as maybe some meditation before bed. It just depends what i am doing thoughm, as i have 2 jobs and university to go to

dave

**Lipster** · 04-28-2003, 02:08 PM

Yes, I have. I'm interested in at least trying it and seeing if I notice any changes. I've got alot of questions. First, what kind of benefits can I expect? What risks are involved with the training? How do you find a reputable teacher? How long, daily, should you do chigong exercises for them to be beneficial? How long must you be monitored to make sure you are doing them correctly?

Well Mark, I don't know that much about chigong. But firstly and foremostly don't expect anything greater then the results you've gotten from your training. It's the same. You'll make great leaps over time, but it wont be so noticable from day to day. Just like training. That's why I'm so dubious with people like WKK who promise incredible, unparalleled leaps of power after several weeks of training in exchange for large sums of money. Chi is no different to anything else that is improved with time. And there are types who attribute it with great powers at the expense (quite literally) of other peoples ignorance. That's why I display no interest in the people who tell me to 'go down there and check it out', because I'm not gonna fork over a few hundred pounds just to experience a farce intended for gullible or susceptible people [which would explain why his students seem to share the same sort of mindset - I mean, a Shifu in three years? If that's not susceptibility I dunno what is] who are infatuated with the mysterious notion of chi. Its entire ideology is irrational. It's no different to these Macdojo's who offer a masters belt for two grand in under a year. People laugh at that idea, yet think people who hold the same veiws as WKK are sensible. Why is it viewed differently because the subject matter is chi? Sorry, got off subject.

I think the results depend on the different exercises you do, how often etc, so I can't really say more without specifics. Generally speaking it improves overall health, can increase your power, assist flexibility, assist relaxation and when you get to things like Iron Shirt, help absorb and repel incredible blows [at advanced stages]. Iron Shirt is priceless for a competitive career, once mastered the practitioner basically has nothing to fear from his opponent, even an extremely powerful one. Yan Lei has mentioned that since he's so short, his iron shirt is used for getting right in close to the opponent and annihilating him from there.

The risks involve energy blockages and negative energy flows and so on, meaning if you don't learn from a teacher who knows what heâ€™s doing, it could be harmful to your internal organs. Or so they say. As for finding a teacher, use your head. Find someone with a good reputation, preferably one without too much controversy attached to him. I guess you have to make up your own mind on that one. Which area do you live in?

I would guess that after you have learned the correct processes, theory and form properly you can do it on your own. That's the good thing about it. Spend a few weeks/months learning Ba Duan Jing or something and then you're set for life. Every day is best, if not, whenever you can. In our school, we are required to know Ba Duan Jing for the Rooster class (the first proper gong fu class after preparation and foundation) and encouraged to practice it every day if you're interested in getting the most out of your gong fu. When I asked Yanzi why it was mandatory to know it to pass up, he simply said 'If you don't know it you won't be strong enough for the higher levels.'
I've heard things mentioned about practicing chigong and sex; Yan Ming wrote that one shouldn't practice 24 hours after sex. But as Dave mentioned, someone with a regular sex life is gonna have some problems with that if they train every day. So I guess I would leave it at not practicing too soon after sex.

It was me speculating why only few people who do chigong can do the more dramatic things associated with developing chi. Also, it was an attempt to explain why there aren't an awful lot of reputable teachers out there.

I think this would reflect on what I said above. Alot of people are unscrupulous. Since chi is looked upon as magical (I mean, how many people go crazy after seeing the Wheel of Life), it's taken advantage of. One is promised amazing results when in fact it's no different to regular training; you'll get the same results as you would from training - over time. And how many people are willing to put years of dedicated work into something? This makes for the number of unreputable teachers and the few number of practitioners out there imo.

Okay, peace.

(Btw, you have to check your inbox if you wanna read your PM's)

**daodejing** · 04-28-2003, 07:30 PM

Gah. There is distinction but no meaning in words. I may have said qi, but i meant jing.
Doesnt really matter anyway dave. Losing jing means losing the bodies primary source of water qi which means you lose the potential to create more qi, which in my opinion means you lost qi. It's the age old argument of whether a nickel not saved is also a nickel lost. Frankly I don't think its worth arguing.

Dave, you're totally right about the fact that daily practice is neccessary for real progress. But if you're male, abstinence is just as neccessary for real progress. Its quite interesting that you usually practice between 5-7 am or 5-7 pm. Sunrise and sunset. These are good times for practice. I'm curious though, do you practice at these times as reccomended by your sifu? Or did it just feel right to practice at those times?

**daodejing** · 04-28-2003, 07:33 PM

Hmm. Am I the only one out here who thinks it's easier to explain qi to somebody using physics and biochemistry?
Cause frankly science can explain it quite well if you put your mind to it. Magic is just a made up word used by people who can't be burdened to truthfully explain a phenomenon. And yes, sadly, many people look at qi as some esoteric magical thing.

**daodejing** · 04-28-2003, 07:42 PM

Allright this will be my last post in a row now. Seriously. I mean it.

This might be somewhat related or completely unrelated, but.............

The Laws of Conservation of Matter and the Conservation of Energy have huge exceptions regarding nuclear reactions where matter and energy can be created and or destroyed. These laws only make sense if we admit that matter is only a form of energy and there is only the Law of Conservation of Energy and it has no exceptions.

I've heard alleged scientists and allopathic doctors say that Qi Theory and specific Qigong practices can't be real because they violate those scientific laws. And that is utter bullshit. I've never heard of any proof whatsoever that energy is not conserved in any way during qigong. Every chemical reaction in your body either releases or stores energy. Cellular respiration unleashes and then stores (through adenosine triphosphate molecules) a rediculous amount of qi. We live in a vast absurdly complicated electromagnetic field and we in turn are but absurdly complicated self-aware electromagnetic fields. Ok, I can't see any end to this rant in the near future so I'll just shutup without concluding my statement. Ola, and kindly pardon my language.

**juszczec** · 04-28-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by daodejing
[B]In reference to your question, "what kinds of benefits can I expect?" You may not like the answer.
Don't expect anything. Dr. Yang Jwing Ming once quoted an old proverb in saying that, in regards to qigong, "Expectation is the worst emotional disturbance." And it's true. The benefits of qigong practice are many and varied, it depends upon the individual. However, if you read up on things that have happened to other people and then convince yourself that these things will happen in your own practice, this is extremely bad.

If you need a detailed explanation of why its bad, purchase The Root of Chinese Qigong by the aforementioned author. If you like that book and want to go deeper, read Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qigong. But mostly just practice, and let your body do whatever it wants to do in order to balance itself out.

The only reason I ask is so I'm not attributing the wrong things to qigong practice. Say, if a month after starting my pierced ear closes up - this may or may not have anything to do with qigong, I don't want to mistakenly blame it on the practice.

As for when to practice............ everyday. Unless you have alot of sex. Do not practice qigong for at least 24 hours before and after sexual activity. Ejaculation causes a large amount of qi to be lost if you're male.

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you do qigong after losing lots of qi?

Mark

**juszczec** · 04-28-2003, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by dave
mark: if you are interested in Qigong, just take some classes and practise.

This brings me to my next question - take classes where? Other than "Martial Arts" in the phone book, can you tell me where to look?

Mark

**juszczec** · 04-28-2003, 09:31 PM

Originally posted by Lipster001
Well Mark, I don't know that much about chigong. But firstly and foremostly don't expect anything greater then the results you've gotten from your training. It's the same.

Do you mean my the same as my karate training? If so, wouldn't my training in karate AND practicing qigong be redundant?

I think the results depend on the different exercises you do, how often etc, so I can't really say more without specifics. Generally speaking it improves overall health, can increase your power, assist flexibility, assist relaxation and when you get to things like Iron Shirt, help absorb and repel incredible blows [at advanced stages]. Iron Shirt is priceless for a competitive career, once mastered the practitioner basically has nothing to fear from his opponent, even an extremely powerful one. Yan Lei has mentioned that since he's so short, his iron shirt is used for getting right in close to the opponent and annihilating him from there.

What do you mean by power? Muscular strength, speed (for generating momentum) or something else?

Who is Yan Lei? Your teacher? Do you have any firsthand experience with Iron Shirt?

The risks involve energy blockages and negative energy flows and so on, meaning if you don't learn from a teacher who knows what heâ€™s doing, it could be harmful to your internal organs. Or so they say.

What kind of damage do you mean?

As for finding a teacher, use your head. Find someone with a good reputation, preferably one without too much controversy attached to him. I guess you have to make up your own mind on that one. Which area do you live in?

Akron, Ohio, USA.

Where the weather winters are cold, the summers are humid and the days are mainly overcast

I would guess that after you have learned the correct processes, theory and form properly you can do it on your own. That's the good thing about it. Spend a few weeks/months learning Ba Duan Jing or something and then you're set for life.

Are you at the self maintenance stage? How long did it take you to get there? How long is your daily qigong practice?

(Btw, you have to check your inbox if you wanna read your PM's)

Ya know, I was looking at the wrong indicator all day yesterday. I finally found it after reading your last post.
Sorry about that.

Mark

**dave** · 04-28-2003, 10:17 PM

ok theres a heck of a lot of posts here so this may take some time

Gah. There is distinction but no meaning in words. I may have said qi, but i meant jing.

well technically there is, depending if you are talking about prenatal or postnatal qi. prenatal qi is finite and is what u get from your parents. postnatal qi is what you get from training as a supplement to that.

abstinence is just as neccessary for real progress.

for sure, but it depends on what you want to achieve and also what progress is for you. If u just wanna be more healthy then train whenever you can. if you really want to develop the skill in a deeper level, then such things are good. I know for me when i train hard qigong i am meant to remain chaste for 100 days or as close to it as possible. it can be done - again depending on your goals.

But none of these are helping Mark as he is just learning about Qigong and not a TCM person

I'm curious though, do you practice at these times as reccomended by your sifu?

these are the times specifically laid out in my "heavenly river monastery" hard qigong, and have been for 400 years

of course they are good, especially for the lungs and kidneys which are important for developing my qigong skill. Also they fit in with my schedule as it means no one is usually around (morning especially). I have to trian outside and hit myself against a wall and other things so its best not done when people can see!

Just out of curiosity, what happens if you do qigong after losing lots of qi?

you replenish whats in the bank!

Other than "Martial Arts" in the phone book, can you tell me where to look?

its tricky as i dont know the MA scene in the usa. But looking in the back of MA mags can be good - beware of the hokey ads though. Also if u know anyone who is a TCM doctor, maybe either they themself does qigong, or knows someone who does (as its often used in conjunction with treatment). if you have a chinatown you could ask. it may also be called "hei gong" which is the cantonese

If so, wouldn't my training in karate AND practicing qigong be redundant?

why? qigong develops relaxation, good posture, clear mind and other things. if anything it can HELP your karate!

What do you mean by power? Muscular strength, speed (for generating momentum) or something else?

Thats where it gets interesting. so called "internal" power has a lot to do with the body structure being linked, and all the joints and tendons working together - not overt muscular strength. in wing chun the power kinda just "pops" when u have contact, i cant do it yet but have felt it and know plenty who can! lol

As far as "iron shirt" yes thats what i train. But we just call it hard qigong as we train all over the body. Its real hard physical and mental training and takes time, but it really helps me to stay healthy and have a clear head, as well as the MA benifit

What kind of damage do you mean?

this is especially true if you use such things as visualisation, which if done wrongly can be dangerous. i know from experiences my sifu has told me that some people dont "centre" themselves with meditation after training - especially when raising up the "energy". It makes your brain very active, and if you dont balance again, it can make you even very aggressive and moody. i have seen it happen with some people who learned our skill and went away to practise it without correction as they thought they "had" it.

Are you at the self maintenance stage? How long did it take you to get there? How long is your daily qigong practice?

it depends on what skill you are learning and who is teaching you (if they have the depth and experience). certain things are easier to learn than others, but that doesnt mean the skill is easy. Stance training (horse or standing post) is good and can be learned reasonably quickly compared to say a 100 move form, but you still have a LOT to pay attention to regarding posture, relaxation, intention etc. so it depends what you want to achieve.

(Btw, you have to check your inbox if you wanna read your PM's)

in your user options or profile, you can set an option to make a little box pop up when you have a new PM - as soon as u log in to the forum. i find it useful

dave

**Lipster** · 04-28-2003, 11:42 PM

Mark,

Do you mean my the same as my karate training? If so, wouldn't my training in karate AND practising qigong be redundant?

Why the heck would it be? It would enhance your karate and your health. Why should it have any effect different to a kung fuster practising chigong?

What do you mean by power? Muscular strength, speed (for generating momentum) or something else? Who is Yan Lei? Your teacher? Do you have any firsthand experience with Iron Shirt?

I think it has something to do with de-centralised (isolated muscle movement) and centralised (using the whole body together) movement. Like Dave said, everything working together. This power from a unified movement is internal power. Chi strengthens the internal body, thus allowing for greater internal power. This in turn increases things like speed as well, so there may well be more then one factor in it improving one's MA.

Shi Yan Lei is one of the two senior monks at the temple, along with Shi Yanzi. I do not train Iron Shirt myself yet, but I've witnessed it several times. When the monks sparred Yan Lei deflected some incredible kicks to his torso from Yanzi without any problem. And Shi Yanzi's got a kick. They whack themselves with slabs of bricks and wood too. It's years of work though.

What kind of damage do you mean?

Sorry, don't know. I've never really read up on the subject; it's just a recurrent warning on everything I have read about practising chigong - that if one practices or learns it incorrectly, it can cause energy blockages and the like, resulting in damage of the internal organs. Exactly what and how is anyoneâ€™s guess. I haven't actually looked into the technicalities of TCM and energy flows, I just read what I need to know for training. Excuse my ignorance.

Are you at the self maintenance stage? How long did it take you to get there? How long is your daily qigong practice?

I've only been doing chigong recently since I had to learn it for my upcoming exam. I know the form itself okay, but there are plenty subtleties that need perfection. So I'm giving it a couple more months in class, then I'll practice it in my own time. The class is fifteen minutes of meditation and the next 45 minutes is the warm up and Ba Duan Jing. I try to do it every day, in or out of class. Though the form itself doesn't take more then ten - fifteen minutes or so after a five minute warm up. So all you need to do is spend fifteen to twenty minutes a day on it.

I have no idea where to look in Akron. You've been doing karate a while, surely you must know some people who do kung fu? If you do, see if they know of anyone worthwhile. Just try go by personal recommendation rather then adverts (if you can); there are so many places you can waste your money.

Peace

**dave** · 04-29-2003, 09:21 AM

I think it has something to do with de-centralised (isolated muscle movement) and centralised (using the whole body together) movement. Like Dave said, everything working together. This power from a unified movement is internal power.

if someone can either make you collapse directly down to the ground, or send you flying while already touching you - THAT is internal power. I cant do it, but sure know what it feels like on the recieving end. It just "pops" and u feel it inside, under your rib cage

Chi strengthens the internal body, thus allowing for greater internal power. This in turn increases things like speed as well,

i would say, just learn to relax, learn to connect the body in a unified fashion, learn how to be efficient and economical... most importantly most internal MA have some kind of sensitivity training so that you know WHEN to use your energy, that way it is efficient and not wasted. Thats how you can be fast, knowing WHEN you need to get to the target...

When the monks sparred Yan Lei deflected some incredible kicks to his torso from Yanzi without any problem. And Shi Yanzi's got a kick. They whack themselves with slabs of bricks and wood too. It's years of work though.

its an impressive skill!

im not quite so natural at it yet, but i have taken punches and kicks to my body as other stuff... i need to train more

if one practices or learns it incorrectly, it can cause energy blockages and the like, resulting in damage of the internal organs. Exactly what and how is anyoneâ€™s guess.

well for me, treat it like any other activity... if ur gonna stretch yourself to train, you need to be taught what NOT to do right? Otherwise you can injure yourself. But after a while u can do it on your own with more ease and get benefit. Same for Qigong and Kung Fu.

How long is your daily qigong practice?

as long as you can manage! For me i try to work up to training 4 hours a day for hard qigong - actually its required to develop the skill, as well as my kung fu training. But usually around 2 hours a day or so when im training.

dave

**juszczec** · 04-30-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by dave
But looking in the back of MA mags can be good - beware of the hokey ads though. Also if u know anyone who is a TCM doctor, maybe either they themself does qigong, or knows someone who does (as its often used in conjunction with treatment).

I will start looking around.

if you have a chinatown you could ask. it may also be called "hei gong" which is the cantonese

Alas, there is no Chinatown in my area. I've been to ones in Chicago and San Francisco and the vibe was awesome.

[QUOTE]
why? qigong develops relaxation, good posture, clear mind and other things. if anything it can HELP your karate!
[QUOTE]

I misunderstood someone's comment saying qigong training was like karate training.

I sure wouldn't be interested if I didn't think it would help.

Mark

**Lipster** · 04-30-2003, 06:32 PM

I meant it was comparable to your training, karate or otherwise, in the fact that it's nothing amazing - just something that improves a little from day to day.

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