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Thread: why believe (or not) and the justification

  1. #11
    Law, thanks for the zen approach

    About cookies, thanks but like ur teacher Thich Nhat Hanh says i try to avoid industrial eggs from caged chicken. Zen write to prisoners wouldnt make much sense

    Do u think ur teacher is wise or r u wiser than him?

    Do u love me?

    Peace and love

    PS One i dont try to say buddhism is right or islam is right, i just say that to keep an open mind to religion might be philosophically useful.
    Last edited by liutangsanzang; 08-04-2008 at 08:40 AM.
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  2. #12
    Anyway, i would like to know how u guys explain the fact that i heard drums then a few minutes after the Lama says Guan Yin/Tara took her bodhisattva vows with the buddha sound of drum. How do u explain the syncrhonicity?

    These are two facts, objective truth, not beliefs. So my belief or knowledge on Guan Yin is different from a simple belief based on the faith, i think.

    I think it is a good news though if something can be understood from it.

    Thanks for helping me not to get caught on illusions, ur comments r precious.
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  3. #13
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    "Anyway, i would like to know how u guys explain the fact that i heard drums then a few minutes after the Lama says Guan Yin/Tara took her bodhisattva vows with the buddha sound of drum. How do u explain the syncrhonicity?"

    i cant explain why you heard drums, but u also cant explain why im craveing katsu chicken singapore style with rice noodles and peanut sauce.

    i cant explain alot of things that happen to me either, like why do i have premonitions all the time, and why do they come true. if a dream is just a dream then premonitions must be true because its obviously not a dream. i had a premonition about finding a ring i lost 4 months ago and a month ago i found it exactly like in my dream(premonition). why does that happen? is it just chance, because if it is why did it happen exactly in the dream, does it make sense to me...no, but how is it possible to see the future.

    thats one circumstance, ive had all kinds of premonitions that come true, ill have a dream, and think..huh thats wierd i wonder if that will happen because the dream is so clear and realistic then when it comes true your like what the hell.

    lots of people say the same thing, why does this happen is it coincidence. i dont think so. but can i explain it..nope i cant.

    u know people in all cultures all throughout history talk about encounters with ghosts, spirits and demons and all this. even now this stuff is constantly going on, are they all crazy? maybe. but its a hell of a coincidence.

    just like the thread about aliens or ufos or whatever. there is so much evidence all throughout history of the same shit people report today, why is it neglected for one? why does modern society brand people who believe shit like this to be crazy? u know and how can u explain some of the things that happen. some of it u cant explain.
    "did you ask me to consider dick with you??" blooming tianshi lotus

  4. #14
    Just a thought, but if premonitions r premonitions, the future is kind of written in the present and that is quite a deterministic view. Freedom hardly exists, just cause and effects.

    Dont know.

    About dreams, i kind of believe dreams can be connected to reality in a mystical way. In tibetan buddhism there is one yoga of Naropa about dreams.

    I would tend to believe u and that some dreams can be premonitions.

    Peace and love
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  5. #15
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    Well, because u ve never seen an atom it does not mean they do not exist.  U believe some people do research and do not tell lie.
    it's not even remotely similar. saying there's a man up in the sky who's responsible for this, for instance, or that we die and come back again is completely different, as are the implications involved.

    first of all, you don't need to declare your life to a cause, believe "strongly," take vows, or even pray because of the existence of atoms. the atom doesn't make you go to church, evangelize, or spend days closed off from the rest of the world in "the pursuit of happiness." you can also attempt to verify if they exist for yourself. and even if you couldn't, how much would it really matter? what great bearing does it have on one's life? i'm not sure i even see how the atom is relevant to this conversation, especially insomuch that it's existance makes for a valid counter-argument. but if it the atom became important to me, for some reason, at least i could investigate it to draw a conclusion based on my own experiences. i can't exactly do that with religious claims, that is, unless i die first, go to heaven, hell, or eventually break the karmic cycle........in additional, if i find out that i'm wrong about or doubt the existence of atoms, it's not a big deal either. i won't be damned to an eternity in hell or be forced to live extra life times. though it may influence me from time to time, it won't determine who i am, how i behave, etc...
    About mystics i had this experience at a tibetan temple. It was a teaching on Tara, the bodhisattva of compassion for the suffering of every living being. A girl knocked the gong to announce the teaching and at the same time i heard drums coming from inside me. Zen at the teaching the lama said Tara took her bodhisattva vows with the buddha sound of the drum. And i had experienced drums a while ago?

    How do u explain that? Do u think i lie to make u believe in buddha?
    i've had interesting experiences myself. i could say i've had whole orchestras playing within, but would i then have to attribute that to guanyin or the buddha? if i'm moved by a classical indian percussionist, should i then devot my life to krishna or genesh? and, what distinguishes these experiences from other religious experiences exactly, or even from the mentally ill?

    I think if u r sensitive to Qi u will feel many coincidences, many sinchronicities that are hardly explainable without mystics.
    ironically, they aren't at all provable with them either.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    in 2002 i was living in qingdao. to make a long story short, my brother's birthday was coming up. i had a few weeks vacation so i went on a trip, figuring i'd find something suitable on the road. i stopped in xiamen, gulangyu, hangzhou, ningbo, putuoshan, and shanghai, as well as some other small towns along the way...but i just couldn't find anything that fit. by the time i got back to qingdao, a gray city in northern china during the winter months, i felt pretty discouraged. basically it didn't feel right, so i just kept going, and i ended up not buying anything at all, which was quite ridiculas considering where i'd just been. i mean how could one go so far and not even get a simple gift? anyhow, i get off the train, walk to a small store, and begin to talk with the owner some. upon hearing "putuoshan," he insists i take a little charm of guanyin from his shop for free.

    an item that cost literally nothing ended up being one of the best gifts i've ever recieved, and i gave it to my brother. even if, in actuality, it was just a little worthless piece of crap.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    i've experienced various things like this in the past, and still do today. one of these "coincidences" is present in my life right now. i can't explain it, but that doesn't prove anything either. i'd just say i'm lucky in that respect.

    Even science have proven that 2 particles are connected and evolve in similar ways, though the information do not have time to travel at light speed.
    this means what exactly?

    But i agree with a lot of what u say. U should base urself on personal experience rather than on dogmas or other people philosophy. But can u proove they are wrong? If u choose not to act like there is a karma and future life dont u choose another religion/belief system?
    no, a person lacking in a belief does not have the burden of proof. this is a kind of misconception. i mean, seriously, why would one need to prove something that they don't see the sense of believing in the first place? i also don't think the lack of belief constitutes another religion or belief system. it's just rational thought.

    compassion is a beautiful concept. does that mean there's actually a god of compassion, called guanyin? or is it just a word that illustrates the concept well?

    what about the "golden rule?" could there actually be a "just" god of ethic reciprocity, out there as well, do you think?

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    Law, thanks for the zen approach

    About cookies, thanks but like ur teacher Thich Nhat Hanh says i try to avoid industrial eggs from caged chicken. Zen write to prisoners wouldnt make much sense

    Do u think ur teacher is wise or r u wiser than him?

    Do u love me?

    Peace and love

    PS One i dont try to say buddhism is right or islam is right, i just say that to keep an open mind to religion might be philosophically useful.
    I love...cake...

    I love... my girlfriend...

    hmm...did I mention cake already?
    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

  7. #17
    One, first of all,i m not trying to prove you buddhism is right. I ve spent a lot of time in meditation struggling with the fact that i was acting according to beliefs. What am i doing there meditating? I think with time i have found a meditation that is more personal and can deal partially with religious beliefs as questions. But again i thank u for the discussion these days because i m questioning even more what i tend to believe.

    If i understand u correctly u seem to say u cannot prove things as afterlife.

    But tibetan lamas practicing Powa, one of the 6 yoga of Naropa, say they can master the bardo of after death and chose they future reincarnation.

    I dont say it is true, i dont say it is false but from their point of view after life can be proven. So they seem to contradict u. And u seem to say they r liars or in illusions.

    About hell, u seem to be caught in a judeo christian view that is quite different from the view on emptiness, ignorance and karma. If u commit a crime u might go to jail, that is hell, that is karma. After this life the consequences of ur acts wont be decided only by god or buddha but by other forces such as ignorance and the climate. I think that is a way to see karma that is different from a certain monotheistic approach, but not necessarily contradiction the Gospel or the Quran. Again i dont say it is true, but i feel it as possible.

    Fa, u seem to escape my questions.

    About non violence do u think the ideas of Thich Nhat Hann about renouncing eggs from caged chicken are useless?

    Do u love me?

    Peace and love
    Namo Guan Yin Pusa / Dont create suffering / Dont harm animals!

  8. #18
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    I dont say it is true, i dont say it is false but from their point of view after life can be proven. So they seem to contradict u. And u seem to say they r liars or in illusions.
    And you seem to be saying nothing at all of any value. And you seem to be causing violent thoughts to arise in my brain. And thinking of what your response to that statement will be seems to make me want to go on a three day bender and never talk to a Buddhist again.

    But wait, you're not Buddhist! However you're not Not Buddhist!! Which seems to be a direct contradiction, and the statement of a braindead lunatic! Which seems to explain your fondness for vegetables!

    Do u love me?
    I'm beginning to. Don't pressure me. These things take time.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by liutangsanzang View Post
    Fa, u seem to escape my questions.

    About non violence do u think the ideas of Thich Nhat Hann about renouncing eggs from caged chicken are useless?

    Do u love me?
    I'm not avoiding your questions, I am refusing to answer them.
    "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

    "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

    "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

  10. #20
    Come on Fa. Tell him you love him.

    And good job on the "assertiveness". Never be afraid to assert yourself. Sometimes we prevent ourselves from being more forceful out of respect for others, only to find ourselves screwed by those we try to be respectful to.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

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