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Thread: God Idea

  1. #21
    Jesse, I haven't forgotten, I'll get back to what you wrote soon. I'm a bit busy right now and I gotta be clear on it before I respond...


  2. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2003

    first post

    Shaolin Ninja, Where did you get that first post from anyway???

    So here is a little god argument from Borges:

    Argumentum Ornithologicum

    I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second or perhaps less; I don't know how many birds I saw. Were they a definite or an indefinite number? This problem involves the question of the existence of God. If God exists the number is definite, because how many birds I saw is known to God. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because nobody was able to take count. In this case, I saw fewer than ten birds (let's say) and more than one; but I did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, but not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That number, as a whole number, is inconceivable; ergo, God exists.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2003

    by the way

    DOc!!!! I am so sick of logging in so i can post!! ARGGGGHHH.

    God must be testing me???

    Why can't I just log in once and then post however long I want and then log out?

    The way it is I wind up having to copy what i write and then repost it because it always tells me that i am not logged in and then I lose my post!!!!!

    Please help. I must log in nine times each time I visit the site and want to post something.

  4. #24
    That used to happen with me too. It drops the login after a certain amount of inactivity. Just get into the habit of copying it when you want to post, click back on your browser twice, login again, paste and post.

  5. #25
    Okay Jess,

    Well to be quite honest, I'm not entirely sure what specific points I'm supposed to address. So I'll just outline the argument and you point out the problems you have with it. This is my understanding of the God idea in non Eastern terms.

    We're dealing with an infinite omnipotent being or presence, call it what you will. It is entirely perfect, the product of complete infinity. There is nothing but It. For whatever reason, there was a will to create something other than Itself of which its essence could be partaken. So this brings us to creation of physical existence. Physicality is imperfect, finite. Therefore, as I mentioned in a previous post, this being has to restrict itself to allow for imperfection - physicality [or an absence of this completely transcendental essence/nature] - to exist. Thus the act of creation is one of carving and dilution of the existing perfect essence, not of creating something new - there cannot be something new, something other then this essence, because ultimately there is nothing other then this perfect essence.

    ....that the watch was manufactured and then left in the desert...or, wind had miraculously blown things into the form of a watch. either way, there was a cause and effect to get this thing that at least looks like a watch on the ground. in essence, either way, it is "created."
    Sorry if I'm being slow, but I didn't get what exactly your point is here. Does the above satisfy any points with regard to the object being 'created'?

    , when dealing events outside our experience, we are talking about an objective perspective. modern science teaches us that a perfectly objective perspective is not attainable, at least now. and since it is within the realm of possibilities that indeed the watch is sand, we really cannot "know."
    Hmm, I have a problem with this, but I'll get to it later.

    my argument is simply that it is easier and more rational to explain the universe without a Creator God.
    Ah, now this is a major point. I'm saying that quite frankly it isn't. IT ISN'T. Firstly, the theory of evolution is flawed, secondly, if you study the actual astronomical figures of probability here, it simply isn't more rational to assume there is no Creator. Anyway, evolution only supplies an alternative view, it doesn't in any way put forward a more plausible theory. If you ignore the actual numbers involved, maybe it does, but then that's just flawed investigation. Anyway, if you believe my point on evolution is incorrect, please say so.

    Think about the restriction principle. It could sort out some problems with cause and effect. If you're interested in more technicalities of it I'd be happy.

    so, in these sorts of discussions, i prefer to leave intelligence out and explain it in terms of complexity. we have so-called laws of physics that dictate the movement of particles. if we are trying to predict the movement of one particle, just by itself, very very easy. if undisturbed, it will maintain the same vector. now, throw in a few more particles and some sort of boundaries to bounce off....they'll collide with themselves and the boundaries. now you have to break out the calculator and some high school trig to predict what's gonna go on. now, there's the universe. tada! complexity! humans (or anything else that looks like it may have had an intelligent design) are not exceptions to the rule.
    Okay, again, sorry if I'm being repetitious, but this is what my point is hinged on.

    No, tada, there's not the universe. Complexity is not the whole picture. The originality of this complexity is..

    This can get annoying, as it's highly pedantic but very important which is why I'm pushing it. I've heard several answers on why my aforementioned points do not indicate a God. But no one has specifically addressed my point of what life energy is powered by. Forget the complexity of design and where it originated or how; how it interacts and forms and continues - what is keeping reality in existence? All your answers deal with an existing product - how things are/were formed, how everything has no beginning or end - it's a cycle, how evolution has formed it, etc. But what created and maintains physicality itself? Forget the structure of an atom and how together they form particles - what powers the atoms? What allows a bush to grow? Nutrients yes, but where does this energy to allow growth come from? You say that humans are just extremely complex interactions, fine, but what is maintaining these interactions? Where does the power to 'exist' come from? This is a point I'm trying to make. Some may think all this irrelevant, that's another matter. This is one question science cannot, and hasn't attempted to answer.

    Again, I wonder why - apart from cynicism built from experience - is it such a problem for there to have been an original creator? Scientifically. Give me a specific reason. My specific reason against it is that if you put the two ideas next to eachother, the God idea is simply more plausible. Yes, the other idea is plausible too, only much much more improbable. I see your point - it's theoretically perfectly possible for there not to be a Creator, but my point is that it's so much more improbable - again, if you study the facts and figures. So my reason is that the God idea is more plausible *because of the probabilities involved*, and I don't understand the threat that the concept of God poses. I mean, you say that it's more rational to explain the universe without a God. Considering the actual figures, please spell out why.

    I guess after all this it would bring us back to your original point about 'knowing' anyway, which I'll get to hopefully.

    Okay, this is really incomplete, sorry if it's jumbled but I'm running out of time. I'll try and address the other points in another post, especially knowing things and intelligence.

    And I realise that this post has been really anthropocentric, and there’s a whole problem of duality that can come in here, but as you said it serves the need of the argument. For the moment. I’ll try and address that too.


    Peace out

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    there's a whole lot a thinkin' goin' on here.

    the question to really ask ourselves is not whether or not god exists but what do we want out of such thinking and beliefs. The experience in the Christian religion can be very powerful. But if we just get caught up in all these concepts and such about it, then what's the use?

    Buddhist meditation is devoted to experiencing things as they are and no amount of reading or thinking is going to do you any good. That doesn't mean you shouldn't read or think, but to know that to depend on such things are infact useless when you want a deep understanding of things. The term "god" can be term that many used to describe experience things exactly as they are; however, nowadays people just like to rely on their ideas and maybe even their past experiences of what they call "god."

    When we don't dwell in things as they are in the here and now, we can get very caught in those things that once were. In doing this we can tend to be totally blind to life right, to reality that is right under our own noses. The point is to understand oneself and know oneself and the best way to do that is to stop and reflect on what you need.

    well, that's all from me at the moment. oh dear, I've already said too much.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    May 2004
    If god made all things, pre ordained by him why the Buddha asks:
    according to the supreme deity men will become murderers, theives, unchaste, liars. abusive, bablers, covetous and malicious and perverse in viewe.

    A bodhisatta questions the divine justice thus: (Brahma is the all-powerfull creator/distroyer in hinduism)

    "He who has eyes can see the sickenning sight,
    why does not Brahma set his creatures right?

    If his wide powers no limits can restrain,
    why is his hand so rarely spread to bless?

    Why are hos creatures condemned to pain?
    Why does he not to all give happiness?

    Why do fraud, lies and ignorance prevail?
    Why trimphs falsehood- truth and justice fail?

    I count you Brahma one th'unjust among,
    Who made a world to shelter wrong."

    The Buddha states:
    "If there exists some lord all powerful to fulfill in every creatures bliss or woe
    and action good or ill;
    That lord is stained with sin. Man does but wok his will."

    Namo buddhaya (homege to Gotama buddha)

    Pujemi buddham, dhammam, sangham, kusumenanene ca hotu mokkham
    puppham milayathi yatha idhamme, kayo tatha yathi vinashbavam.
    (even as these beautiful floweres i offer the buddha will die away, so too will all component things- they pass away, are pianladen, and all things conditioned and unconditioned are soulless)

    part of the flower offering sutra.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Sep 2004


    Personally, I think it depends on your frame of reference. If your an ant, and someone has you in it's fist, well that might be your god. Personally, I think the nature of the universe can be thought of as legos. Now with a single lego type, one can make infinite combinations and it all depends on how far away from the design you get. The farther away the more it looks unique. Well what if a kid stole some of your lego pieces? Wouldn't you want them back? I think God does.

    If I was satan, I would want everyone to be weak so I could steal there lego pieces. So I the other person couldn't put it together. I would want to keep them divided and I wouldn't want let them get together. It's really not that complicated.
    "If you want pure self-defense buy a can of mace." Grandmaster Villari (I think that is it).

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Don't he would want to water down the "truth" so to keep people weak, only so he could take more pieces from them?

    If I was god, and I don't think I am, I'd say, I've come to kick butt and chew bubblegum and I'm all out of the Gum. Wouldn't you want to get back what was rightfully yours?

    I think people are making it too complicated. Keep it simple, don't you think that the same ideas are used all the time? Just the bigger things become the more complicated they are?

    Is death real at all? Or is it just an illusion of what to keep us weak.
    "If you want pure self-defense buy a can of mace." Grandmaster Villari (I think that is it).

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    wow. i completely missed this thread and disagree with just about everything i've read. oh well. happy holidays...

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