Scientology

[Limni]

Doc; It's actually on the plate on the back of an emeter. I'll have to get the quote from the FDA website....

Here's something else in response to my "strong statement" earlier about psychiatric BS, taken from a website that is not originating from Scn:

A portion from: http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp...rug_regime.htm
- The New Freedom Commission on Mental Health's report states that "mental illnesses are shockingly common," but neglects to address or even mention the fact that there is no medical or scientific means by which to diagnose mental 'illnesses'. Psychiatrists and mental health proponents promote psychiatric 'disorders' as a disease, or an illness that can be diagnosed in the same manner as real physical illness. This is a fraud. There are no blood tests, brain scans or chemical imbalance tests to validate any mental disorder as an illness or 'disease'. With no scientific/medical criteria to substantiate these claims, anyone could be diagnosed as mentally ill based solely on a checklist of behaviors.

- The DSM contains hundreds of psychiatric mental 'disorders' which are a list of behavioral symptoms that are literally voted into existence and inserted into the DSM. Such diagnoses include "Caffeine-Related Disorder", "Mathematics Disorder", "Disorder of Written Expression", and the all-encompassing "Phase of Life Problem". These 'disorders' are simply a classification of symptoms that are drastically different from, and foreign to, anything in medicine.

Comments?

[Limni]

I just read the earlier emeter comment although it really is illegal to "cure" anything in this country, really.

Constant alertness, constant willingness to fight back is the price of freedom and I'm certainly willing to, believe me....

I don't believe LRH wrote that lower conditions penalties stuff and it was probably from the 70s ... Many people are in lower conditions in their lives and can pull out of it with application of these formulas, which I will not list here. See the website for what ethics technology is and does. You're cutting down something you have no clue how powerful and useful it can be. www.scientology.org, under their Q&A section. Later, see ya next week.

[zachsan]

The New Freedom Commission on Mental Health's report states that "mental illnesses are shockingly common," but neglects to address or even mention the fact that there is no medical or scientific means by which to diagnose mental 'illnesses'. Psychiatrists and mental health proponents promote psychiatric 'disorders' as a disease, or an illness that can be diagnosed in the same manner as real physical illness. This is a fraud. There are no blood tests, brain scans or chemical imbalance tests to validate any mental disorder as an illness or 'disease'. With no scientific/medical criteria to substantiate these claims, anyone could be diagnosed as mentally ill based solely on a checklist of behaviors.

some of these are actually valid points, made by many people besides scientologists, and perfect examples of what i meant when i said that psychiatry and psychology were easy to attack, being new sciences. at the same time, some of this is complete bullshit. for instance, it's true that psychiatrists usually prescribe medications without performing chemical tests on peoples' brains, partly because those tests tend to be extremely expensive, and trial and error is simply more effective. medications are however based on neurological information obtained through scientific testing. for instance, whether or not you see depression as a legitimate disease, we know prozac helps to alleviate it. whether a psychiatrist is really "curing" anyone or just helping a sad guy feel better, he is in fact using techniques based on actual science.

medicine is applied science; the goal is not absolute certainty of data but rather simply to help the patient. the designation of anything as a disease or disorder is simply a utilitarian exercise to make it easier to help that person. and of course the terminology to be used is decided by those involved in the profession; otherwise it would be useless terminology.

none of this, of course, supports your contention that:

The APA votes on what mental illnesses are next, that will garner the most cash in drug prescriptions, and away we go.

finally, and most importantly, the entire issue is one big false dilemma: one must decide either between psychiatry or scientology and dianetics. in other words, hold the tentative conclusions of a new science as truth (which is not the way science works anyway), or subscribe to something we've already established has nothing to do with science. further, it's a blatant red herring to distract from the issue of scientology being a cult.

[Limni]

Zack Back At Ya

I better get my Prozac to handle my caffeine syndrome.

Now THAT's science fiction!

[doc]

From the New England Journal of Medicine, a fairly highly respected medical journal:

BACKGROUND. People who stop consuming caffeine may have symptoms, but the incidence and severity of caffeine withdrawal are not known. This study was performed to determine the effects in the general population of ending one's dietary intake of caffeine. METHODS. We studied 62 normal adults whose intake of caffeine was low to moderate (mean amount, 235 mg--the equivalent of 2.5 cups of coffee--per day). They completed questionnaires about symptoms and tests of their mood and performance when consuming their normal diets (base-line period) and at the end of each of two two-day periods during which they consumed caffeine-free diets and under double-blind conditions received capsules containing placebo (placebo period) or caffeine (caffeine period) in amounts equal to their daily caffeine consumption. RESULTS. More subjects had abnormally high Beck Depression Inventory scores (11 percent), high scores on the trait scale of the State-Trait Anxiety Inventory (8 percent), low vigor scores (11 percent) and high fatigue scores (8 percent) on the Profile of Mood States, and moderate or severe headache (52 percent) during the placebo period than during either the base-line period (2, 0, 0, 0, and 2 percent, respectively; P less than 0.05) or the caffeine period (3, 2, 2, 0, and 6 percent; P less than 0.05). More subjects reported unauthorized use of medications during the placebo period (13 percent) than during the caffeine period (2 percent, P = 0.017). Performance of a tapping task was slower during the placebo period than during the base-line and caffeine periods (P less than 0.01). CONCLUSIONS. Persons who consume low or moderate amounts of caffeine may have a withdrawal syndrome after their daily consumption of caffeine ceases.

OK, so it may not mean much to most of you, but, it references various scientific approaches towards understanding caffeine addiction. Addiction, which, like any other drug addiction, has mental and pyschological effects.

So, Limni, it really doesn't matter if you call it "caffeine syndrome", or whatever. It's a readily recognized effect of ingesting too much caffeine. Whether you call it a disease, or a side effect, is the same as trying to reference crush trauma from being run over by a truck, a "disease" or a "side effect".

It's there. Regardless of what you or anybody else wants to reference it as. At least, in modern medicine, people try to study it using generally acceptable scientific principles. You don't find this same study within Scientology.

[Limni]

There's a difference between prescribing dangerous adult-level prescriptions to children of Prozac and Ritalin and a nutritional study of the effects of caffeine on a body. You're changing the subject. Scientology has codes and formulas designed to help a person confront and handle life situations. When these are done as written, improvement occurs. When I do what it says, I get a positive result. That's the proof I need. Does it work or not? Do I need permission from the medical community or the FDA first? I think not. Also, you seem to have a problem with people attacking you for what is obviously an attack on them. You expect me to bow down and say "I'm sorry, don't hurt me?" Not even.

I found that the Internet is a pretty bad way of researching Scn. I found several articles that twisted the theology into something I never heard of, ghosts of 35,000 years ago and such. It's no wonder you guys are flipping out. You just don't know the true story but are buying BS regarding the subject.

I sure hope Maestro got his money's worth on this blog. It's the longest running one here and has the most replies.

LM

[zachsan]

There's a difference between prescribing dangerous adult-level prescriptions to children of Prozac and Ritalin and a nutritional study of the effects of caffeine on a body. You're changing the subject.

you're the one that brought up caffeine in the first place! out of nowhere!

I better get my Prozac to handle my caffeine syndrome.
Now THAT's science fiction!

unbelievable!!

anyway....

When I do what it says, I get a positive result. That's the proof I need.

exactly, and that's faulty reasoning. in fact, it's such a common logical mistake that it's got a fancy name, the pragmatic fallacy.

Do I need permission from the medical community or the FDA first? I think not.

absolutely not. but you also have the choice of researching it beyond the point of "i tried it, and it works". you are choosing not to do so, and to base your "deeper understanding" on even more unproven claims.

I found that the Internet is a pretty bad way of researching Scn. I found several articles that twisted the theology into something I never heard of, ghosts of 35,000 years ago and such. It's no wonder you guys are flipping out. You just don't know the true story but are buying BS regarding the subject.

it is funny how a free exchange of information will sometimes yield information you don't like. maybe you should start paying attention to sources other than those endorsed by scientologists, rather than lamenting the fact that these sources exist. it's a big world out there.

[doc]

I sure hope Maestro got his money's worth on this blog. It's the longest running one here and has the most replies.

LM

You're right. I had thought that BL might have one this month's prize, with her "The evil doctor" thread, another of my dear favorites.

[doc]

Hey, SCN going after another scion of our generation.

Scientology has a message for Kate Moss: We can help.

Reps of the controversial religion are “reaching out” to the model, offering to help her beat her drug problem, says a well-placed source. Moss was recently dropped from a lucrative modeling contract when she was photographed snorting lines of coke.

“Scientology has become quite proactive in reaching out to people,” says the source. “Kate is a woman who needs help and Scientology feels that they can steer her in the right direction.” (msnbc)

That's nice of them.

[plumflower_pm]

oh yea, convert 'em when they're down...

[Limni]

Not at all. Help them when they need it. She needs to enter the Narconon program, just like Kirsti Alley did. It has the lowest recitivism (SP) rate in the country of any drug treatment program.

Zach: I do not lament alternate sources exist. I "lament" that they are inaccurate. There are many other subjects (the sciences, humanities) that also have conflicting info on the internet. I'm a 100% supporter of the 'net and its value in our culture. But like any tool it can be abused.

I brought up "caffeine" because it was used as an example of a mental illness in the earlier quote I posted, if you were paying attention.

I didn't know that about Kate Moss. That's great!

[doc]

The Hubbard stuff with respect to Narconon, and everything else, is just hysterical. The more I read about this guy, the more amazed I am that people still believe in him.

All of his claims that are medically related, concerning Narconon, drugs, radiation, use of vitamins, etc, are complete and utter bullshit, having all been easily and previously refuted and proven by modern medical science. Modern medical science that has been around for the past one hundred years. His medical claims as to how his drug treatment programs work, are complete and utter bullshit.

I'm really fascinated by this guy, who once claimed to be on the team that created the first atomic weapon. In fact, his only real scholarly education was a miserly year in a civil engineering program, in which he averaged a "D" grade average. The more I read on this guy, the more I see what kind of flamboyant and unparalleled imagination that he has. In fact, and I know you hate psychiatry, but I'm starting to think Hubbard was either truly delusional or schizophrenic. He most definitely had issues.

Steve, he reminds me of Beano. Need I say more?

[shaolinstylee]

hey watch it, you can learn a lot in one year of engineering school, especially whilst averaging a D..... I learned that I can't drink as much as that one guy and puking on your date is not a good idea if you are gonna try to "go for it"......

Well, maybe because I averaged a C my first year.... Maybe I did learn more.

[Limni]

Einstein: He was home schooled for the early part of his life, and when he finally went to school with the other children, his teachers thought he was developmentally disabled. He hated sports, he almost never talked to the other children, and he refused to study any subject he didn't find interesting. The only subjects he did find interesting were math and philosophy. He spent his spare time building huge houses of cards and playing the violin. His mother said he carried his violin wherever he went, 'like a dear child.'

Hubbard: There are photos of him with his graduating class at George Washington University. Your point is?

Narconon, etc: These drug treatment programs are effective. It's not just my assertion either. You really should do your research. The medical community has a lot of profit to gain from maintaining their methadone treatment programs, which are a failure. No wonder they don't want Narconon.

later-- LM

[Limni]

Please see these independent studies on Narconon purification program: http://www.atlantarecoverycenter.com/Studies.htm

A quote from one:
Xenobiotic Reduction and Clinical Improvements in Capacitor Workers: A Feasible Method, Journal of Environmental Science and Health, Vol. A25, No.7,1990.
Summary: Eleven capacitor workers, occupationally exposed to PCBs and other industrial chemicals, underwent detoxification. Thirteen co-workers served as controls. Mean PCB levels prior to detoxification were 28.0 mg/kg in adipose and 188.0 ug/L in serum. Following detoxification, PCBs were reduced in serum by 42 percent (p<0.05) and in adipose by 30 percent for patients without concurrent disease. Patients with concurrent disease had a 10 percent reduction in adipose levels, while serum levels remained unchanged. Both adipose and serum PCB levels increased in members of the control group. At a four-month follow up examination, these differences were maintained, though the mean adipose PCB values in all groups were higher than at post-treatment. All patients reported marked improvement in clinical symptoms post-treatment, with most of these improvements retained at follow-up. No such improvements were noted in controls.

- LM