according to the bible, i hear...

[doc]

i have heard many times by many christians that martial arts are a form of witchcraft.

The problem is not with the religion. The problem is, with the "christians" that you are talking to.

[onesp1ng]

religion may not "try" to control peoples' thoughts and actions, but it still succeeds in doing so...because the concept it portrays shapes major aspects of our lives. Actually, commonly shared myths have always performed some kind of truth even if they are unable to explain the conditions of the nature of truth accurately.

Is martial arts witchcraft? perhaps, to a degree.
Is it in line with a Christian's view of what witchcraft is? probably not.

Is there a god? maybe.
Is jesus the only son of god..blah blah? Again, probably not.

So the nature of these myths or hypotheses can not ever be simply true or false. They're stronger and weaker accounts of our origin. Yet, these principles do seem very important to our rationality, for having a spiritual belief system gives personal meaning to many people, challenges them to better themselves, brings FEAR into their lives, etc. But as long as the belief in god is not allowed to be treated as a myth or hypothesis, exempt from criticism -- as is my experience with Christians and their philosophy -- the laws of nature and physics.....at least for me....religion will continue to fall on the irrational side of the spectrum. I mean, today it's not only dangerous to challenge religion, it's stupid. People die when they stand up against religion. So I think "control" is a very relative question here.

When you get down on your knees to pray, is that not a form of control? What if you could eliminate the notion of God in your life? Would you have had that
urge to pray? Where does it come from? Can you be free from it? And why don't you stand on your head?

[LeiYunFat]

Haven't you heard of "Kicks for Christ"? Heathens.

[master splinter]

imo,

prayer is one thing that all religions share, to me its just a way of looking deep within yourself and relieving stress with positive reinforcement,

and no, i do not feel that it is a form of control, since when i pray, it is fully willing.

i still pray to god, whoever or whatever it may be, and maybe thats my greatest strength, or my greatest weakness.

[LeiYunFat]

Splinter man...you gotta stop talking in ultimates.

Control is control whether you think it is or not. It's like me sitting down at my favorite tv show promptly at x time. It's control, but that doesn't mean it's bad or whatever.

All religions are forms of control. Again, that doesn't make them wrong-- it just depends on the magnitude.

[onesp1ng]

Lei said it well. My point is that it's not yes or no, black or white,...it's gray or maybe, perhaps, etc.... and you can't do anything about that. Societies are formed on the bases of these notions...you can't just say I believe or I don't. You can, but I'd have to suggest that that's a very superficial mode of looking at the situation, like saying I am completely like my mother or I'm not like my mother at all. Look in the mirror! You pray, yes, but why? Becuase you woke up one day and said, shit, i think there is a hmmmmm sure "A God" (one god?)and I should pray to it (him? her?) or because "prayer is something that all religions share?" In the first instance you could be the developer of a brand new religion, on the other hand you are a follower. I don't think it's feasible to step beyond these ideas, as if you can say you don't want to be or you don't believe you are ... lets say Swiss, but you grew up in Switzerland and lived there for 20 years, only to one day be faced with the question of whether or not you are "really" Swiss because you don't live in the country anymore.....

[master splinter]

i believe that control is escapable, its just that our avenues have been destroyed.

and with other things that you can control, which you let control you, well then that is self defeat.


what a futile discussion.


if what you do is considered wrong or right, well thats up to opinion, although imo, there are universal ideals that one must follow.

preservation requires balance, creation and destruction require ultimates.

[onesp1ng]

What is balance?

[zachsan]

I don't think it's feasible to step beyond these ideas, as if you can say you don't want to be or you don't believe you are

I completely disagree. Let's say your American and you're taught your whole life that you're Swiss. One day, you look around you and you realize you're not in Switzerland and you've never been. Why is it "not feasible" to simply conclude that whoever was telling you you're Swiss was nuts? Or, at the very least (and more to the point), wrong?

If by "not feasible", you really just mean, "difficult", then I agree.

[onesp1ng]

Well, this takes the argument to another place. I was trying to first shape the idea that these things exist in our world and need to be acknowledged before they can be transcended, like racism. The question isn't " is there such a thing as racism: yes or no?" The question is how does it exist, what's it's influence, and how do I relate to the issues involving race personally. The initial question is easy, the latter one, difficult and puzzling.

An example might be of an ABC (or American Born Chinese). If they go anywhere outside of America, they're considered Chinese or something "close." Even in America they are often treated like Chinese. They, however, understand their position and what culture they really come from, regardless of looks. Others have not inquired into the question, so literally take things at face value. The American ("Born Chinese")can not feasibly escape his or her American make up though, they can look beyond it. They can look beyond it through inquiry and through understanding it's relevance in their lives.

Similarly, if you play with the notion of there being a god for twenty years, or not being a god for that matter -- leaving out all the other garbage that comes with this for a moment -- sure, you may begin to resist it by saying I don't believe or I do, but that doesn't mean you can simply throw your hands up in a huff exclaiming, "that's nuts," and be rid of it. It's a process of understanding. Therefore, balance becomes a form of control, as does freedom, or rather control leads to balance and freedom, depending how you look at it. Steps are taken, then comes evolution.

[zachsan]

I really am not sure what your point is, no offense. Sure you can throw up your hands, say "this is nuts" and be done with it in your own thought process. Of course, I can't, for example, ignore the fact that my family is still Christian and that Christianity is a powerful force in this country and the world; and of course deal with it accordingly. But I can be (and am) done with thinking about it as a meaningful and useful way of approaching life.

[Inevitable]

thanks you glad to see that you no longer are part of this christian cult, lol

as most of you were saying the conttrol lays in the fact that it shapes you and takes away your own individual thoughts, if your have deep faith in religion, you would be thinking "what would jesus do", or better yet "what would jesus do for a klondike bar?"lol.

its a form of control, no matter what way you try and look at it, but hey look at the culture we live in, its all about control, from the president, to cops, to your neighboor(landlord, block president??), its about who controls the most is gonna be in charge

hmm this kinda brings up back to the parable that was posted...

[onesp1ng]

Well...my point is that some things carry a lot of weight in our lives. These things can not simply be ignored. They do influence us whether we choose to be blind to them or not. In acknowledging them, we see clearly and have the potential to go beyond. This process of reasoning allows us the room to really be "done thinking about it as a meaningful and useful way of approaching life."

Actually, I feel from your responses that you're looking back through a process you've already experienced, where some are looking forward ... and I'm basically just trying to create a gap so that some communication can take place in the middle somewhere... if that makes sense...

[Inevitable]

hmm yeah, ignorance cannot be bliss in these kind of things, to know it to become knowledgable, and to have knowledge is to be wise. unfortunately which is the point i keep mentioning is that most people that practice religion are blind to the real motives behind it, and thus seem to understand but are all actually fools

[master splinter]

and to think...

what started it all was when we broke the rules and acquired knowledge. damn bitches can never keep their minds off of food. lol.