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**onesp1ng** · 04-21-2005, 08:33 AM

Rob, how did you beat my score in g. bush. Your in trouble...my little pesky friend.\

Is there any good reason to brew up trouble?

g

**doc** · 04-27-2005, 06:22 AM

I've noticed an incredible amount of behavior here in Thailand, with respect to the concept of life after death, and the existance of ghosts. More later. But I asked a good friend of mine, who went on a Doctour many years ago, who also has a Master's degree in Buddhist Studies, what he thought of the issue.

Here's his response:

Hey Man.

There's lot to say about the ghosts. Yes, it's very real in a lot of Buddhist cultures. However, it has a big impact on the Buddhist mindsets that are highly superstitious, of which I would definetely rank Thailand. Have you seen Ong Bak for example, the Muay Thai movie that is just now a big hit in America?
Check out the way Buddhism is portrayed in that movie.

It's extremely superstitious Buddhism and does not relate to the true meaning of Buddhism in hardly anyway. However, it is true to the way many Thai people see Buddhism and the world. Of course, Thailand is not the only place. Its a mindset common in any village around the world. BUT, Thailand has a unique thing with ghosts. I am sure you are going to learn more about it being around the people there then I know from my books. However, I would like to tackle the subject from a anthropological and academically sound Buddhist perspective.

For example, as I alluded to before, there are many practices that Buddhists do from all traditions that deal heavily with the dead. I would love to tell you about them. They are very profound and actually can really help people deal with the subject of death better. There is the philosophy of reincarnation which different BUddhists hold different viewpoints.

But every Buddhist believes in it to some degree.
Finally, there is some really wacky shit out there too.

I think the stuff you are encountering there is more village or general Thai mindsets than anything we can qualify as truly Buddhist. I have this friend from Thailand I talk to regularly and she has commented on this ghost stuff quite a bit. She graduated in Buddhist studies just like I did and has some cool and interesting viewpoints. SHe was educated in the west, is an academically sound and educated Buddhist, and not superstitious in any way. However, she admits that when she goes back to Thailand to visit family, the belief in ghosts comes back to her quite heavily despite the training and conditioning of the west. I will talk to her more on this subject after I write this.

As for purely Buddhist takes on death. Ghosts, from a ideological point of view are absolutely ok to believe in from a Buddhist viewpoint. Since the belief is reincarnation, most Buddhists believe that at death, the spirit or consciousness of the individual goes into a ghostlike state that eventually gets back into another physical host at some point. Mahayana Buddhists believe this time period to be about 49 days. Theravadin Buddhists, which Thailand is exclusively almost, do not have such a specific number. However, the Pali Canon, which is the oldest scriptures of the Buddha and which Theravadin Buddhism (which Thailand is) holds as its key scriptures, has many references to the subject of ghosts and spirits and even demons. Some of the stories are no different from the ones in the west. The only difference is that Buddhism does not reject any of these spirit like beings. The idea of Buddhism is to help all sentient beings and since ghosts or spirits or whatever you call them are still sentient, they deserve to be cared for and actually need to be cared for since they are literally wandering spirits, lost and confused.

Therefore, it is not uncommon for most Asian cultures influenced by Buddhism to offer offerings for spirits since the spirit can still be affected by actions and most especially thoughts on the physical plane. The element of offering is very key in Buddhist thought and obviously this extends to spirit beings as well.
One is supposed to offer the spirit as much well intention, love, compassion, etc, as one would for a living physical being. In Mahayana Buddhism (which is not Thai Buddhism), there are specific practices and rituals of thought to be done for the dead person.

Check out the Tibetan Book of the Dead for an illustration of this. I recommend the Robert Thurman translation. It is an excellent book whether you believe in it in the literal sense or not. Tibetan Buddhism has this wonderful system of looking at death that is truly psychological and can have profound effects. I am serious. IT is amazing.

IF you don't like the Tibetan Book of the Dead, try the idiots version called, Living, Dreaming, Dying by Rob Nairn. That is a great layman's version to the
previously mentioned one. Basically, in Mahayana Buddhism, death is just a gap, or period between one state of consciousness and another, similar in a lot of ways to sleep and dreaming. When you examine and explore the subject of sleep and dreaming, you will find almost identical themes for dealing with death.
For example, when you dream at night, the consciousness takes everything you perceive as real.

The consciousness truly believes in what it perceives.

If it's a dog chasing you, you run, if its a hot woman, you drool, etc. Similarly, in waking life, we react to things as if they are truly "real" since we have been conditioned to since birth. In Buddhism, you challenge this notion of "realness" and break free from it, as it is seen to be false. One of the various ways to that are these dream practices. When you master these dream practices, you also attain some competency in waking life matters, and finally the matter of death also, since the death state is just another momentary gap between one state of consciousness and another.

O.K. that's the Buddhist philosophy part. The part on ghosts is simple. It's just like western styles.

Ghosts or spirits are stuck in a certain sense between the current plane and the next life to be. In Buddhism, the reincarnation process isn't always perfect and things mess up. Since the spirit has so identified with its personality and condition of its previous life, the consciousness reflects this by pushing an identity of which it is most familiar and comfortable with, which is obviously the last physical host it inhabitated. When there is a lot of mourning and emotional attachment from friends and family members, that too, can make the spirit even more attached to its previously held identity. Therefore, it's not uncommon for people like Pu or anyone to "see" the dead in a way that is familiar to them. The spirit is stuck in its identity as are the people who knew them.

"Communication" at this level is not uncommon and freaks people out. If these people wanted to be Buddhist about it, they would offer as much good intention and THOUGHT to the spirit as they would to a confused consciousness on the living plane.

Perhaps more. In the end, A Buddhist I suppose would want that spirit to liberate itself and get out of the reincarnation cycle all together and attain Nirvana.

But at the very least, a better rebirth would be nice with conditions set for learning the Dharma or something liberating and freeing from suffering.

Ok. that's enough, sorry for the long winded-ness of this. Thanks for writing to me. I will try to learn more.
Mark

**shaolinstylee** · 04-27-2005, 12:33 PM

Thank Mark from the forum, that was a great short piece. I haven't had a chance to reread this yet but the analogy of the dream world and conscious activity is one that really needs to be thought about.

**zachsan** · 04-27-2005, 01:18 PM

it is interesting to think about. most of the time when you dream, you don't realize you're dreaming. but think about the times that you have realized it. usually it's because, at some point in the dream, you noticed the differences between the dream and reality. for instance, in one you can fly, in one you can't.

so what makes a dream a dream is the fact that we have a consistent reality to compare it to. but we have nothing to compare reality to, save itself. so it's pointless to call reality just another dream.

the only way someone could truly say that life is a dream, and mean anything by it, is if that person regularly experienced something more consistent and longer lasting than life; in other words, the afterlife. and people who claim that are full of shit.

if, on the other hand, you're just trying to underscore the obvious truth that death is a mystery, well, that's fine. but often this life-as-a-dream stuff is used as a cheap way of justifying other very concrete, and very nonsensical, beliefs.

**plumflower_pm** · 04-27-2005, 01:26 PM

Lucid Dreaming

In one of Carlos Castaneda's books, he writes about his teacher telling him how to achieve lucid dreaming - he says if you can create one conscious moment in your subconcious experience, you can blend the two consistently -- you can take control of your dreams.

He tells Carlos to look at his hands in his dream, and that trigger gives him control.

cool stuff....

**zachsan** · 04-27-2005, 02:12 PM

well dreaming isn't really a subconscious experience to begin with, but anyway, lucid dreaming is cool. there might be a way to control when it happens, who knows, but it seems to me to occur basically by chance. absurd shit can happen to me and i go on believing it's real, while the whole lucid thing can happen to me during a "normal" dream.

**blooming tianshi lotus** · 04-27-2005, 08:39 PM

Originally posted by Fa Hui

You're better off shoving a rose bush up your ass, it'll be more productive.

However you find insight is just fine right ??? !!! you all know yogis and even damo himselfg spent yrs not eating inleiu of medfitation and the preservational state it puts your body in. If you don't get it it's totally your perogative to be as naive to real world notions as you need.

Onesp!ng : trouble brewing is resolution in the making for him her or all, ....it's here nor there

cheers folks

BL

**shaolinstylee** · 04-28-2005, 10:14 AM

ah, the difference between legend and fact......

naitivity can be a virtue for some....

**zachsan** · 04-28-2005, 10:18 AM

not eating for years will only put your body in a "preservational state" if someone mummifies you after you've died.

**blooming tianshi lotus** · 04-28-2005, 10:14 PM

If you've actually read any research about meditatin and respect physiology. you 'd know that during certain meditatinal states, the brain waves slow down, so does the heart rate and so does your metabolism.

cheers

BL