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  • U.S. vs CHINA, just how stupid is the world anyway?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070403/...a_kissinger_dc


    I dont understand this idiotic power struggle. so china is becoming a world power, and a very powerful one at that. Well, personally, i havent really paid attention to chinese culture until i started studying kung fu, but one thing i have noticed is that, compared to the other so called world powers imo a stupid title, china has been more of a churning latent country, compared to other nations, why doesnt china deserve a chance to be a world power (again, stupid name) and what is america so afraid of?

    Shit... from the way bush has been acting, an idiot for a president, it has really been ruining any LOGICAL chances of peace, if america wants a global government, then why is he waging war? how does that make america look? trustworthy? I think the heart and soul of america is a beautiful thing... trustworthy, dependable, and a great helper of the people, but now, bush's actions are ruining the american image, he's making the american people look bad, and he is demoralizing our military.

    im gonna move to fiji
    "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"

  • #2
    What people are afraid of is change. If you're running the joint, and suddenly someone comes in and sets up shop without anything you can do about it, you're going to be a little weary, especially if you've been running things for a while.

    Then there's the fact that China is a Communist state, who's people had or still have a lack of rights we've come to take for granted in America.

    And as an American, how comfortable are you with someone in another country running your life? I think it stands against fundamental American ideals that we have no say in who gets to run our lives. I mean, we usually vote for the bastards who do it.
    Becoming what I've dreamed about.

    Comment


    • #3
      Master Splinter... seems you are very much on the front foot.

      LFJ, I think you get this, but just want to point out that everyone who isn't American at this moment in time, gets to consider what it will be like to be part of another world order. I should also point out that being British we were last to relinquish global supremecy, so we kind of know what you are going through. I think the US could learn a lot for us Brits in how to do this effectively. It never ceases to amaze me, the gauchness of some, if not all, of America's international diplomacy. The one great advantage you have at the moment is Ms Condalezza Rice. I actually hope she becomes the next & first black and female president.

      Actually, can't speak for anyone else, but I find it reassuring that China is up next.

      Basically, if I alegorise nations as and individual, you see that with our hundreds of years of parlimentary law and order, the UK has a reasonably mature approach to its role in global world order. If you look at other countries, eg. Israel. A very young country, coming from an incredibly abused and dysfunctional background you can see the country acting with all the subtlety of a two year old.

      You put America into this alegory, and well, US had only 10s of years of legislative history, and is a teenager. I think the problems we have round the world at the moment, come from precisely that, that America's global supremecy happened at a point in time before it was really mature enough as a country to do itself justice.

      Then you have China. China has not just 100s of years of legistlative experience, but thousands of years.... and this is probably a large reason why they account for around 25% of the global population. As a race, all things equal, so far they are the most successful. They are like an elder, a person of mature years, with 1000s of years culture and history of governing within which to govern with.

      Today we can see how they are behaving internationally. They are not contentious. They are not even contentiously trying to incorporate back HK & Taiwan. That would mess up the CCPs mandate from heaven to allow such disharmony to erupt on their watch. And my feeling is with this background, and given the way they are presently behaving, that if they apply this within their very soon if not already upon us rein of global supremecy, then the world has got to be a better place than after the last 20 years, of US lead, UK seconded global supremacy.

      And you note here that I include the UK in its role in underpinning the US. Power is attractive... without the US, the UK will get over-rulled by Germany & France in Europe and in global affairs... hence the UK has a validatory function on the US, which allows us to remain at the table. This I think is just as responsible for the mess that we are presently in.

      All things said... the biggest problem the globe is facing, is the plague of humanity that is in full swing on it, something which is underpinning the global climate changes, oil & other resource crises, etc. And on this point, perhaps China is the only country that is really doing anything serious about it... seeking to dramatically decrease its population. Something which is possible in China, where the state is all powerful, yet impossible in democratic countries, where the individual is all powerful.

      So I'm sympathetic to you Americans, because we've been there and done that, but I don't think that the prospect of China taking over global supremecy is scary at all... in fact I think its the best thing that could happen to the planet in the circumstances (which is the law of nature). Perhaps the one-child policy is coming our way... probably not in our life times, but perhaps in our childrens... might still seem draconian, but well its probably the only thing in 20 years time, that is going to save the human race from itself.

      Chicken

      Comment


      • #4
        I don't think your analogy is accurate. China has had thousands of years as an established country, but that doesn't mean it is at all any more fit to lead. As a modern government, China is more in its infantcy than America.

        I don't trust China. They may be putting up a clean front now, but it wasn't more than 50 years ago that they were killing their own innocent citizens in the name of reform and streamlinig. My family should know. I never knew my grandfather because of China's policies. Now all he can be to me is a martyr. It hasn't been more than 20 years since the events of Tiananmen Square, has it not?

        In this regard, it is more appropriate to say that China is an infant. This, coupled with power and almost supreme-state authority...who would you want to hold the reigns?

        Also...it's LYF. LFJ is the other guy :P
        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

        Comment


        • #5
          LYF & LFJ humble apologies for name mix up!

          And LYF, sorry to hear that you have been so afflicted by the recent Chinese past. Look I'm not a communist, and I don't support the violence that went on within the recent Chinese past, but it was a bonafida revolution, and I don't think there has ever been one of those with out bloodshed.

          Also on that matter, its really something for a country to turn on itself. Things have to be pretty bad from everyone's perspective to get the consensus to do so. Personally, I believe that if things had continued the way they were before the Communist rise to power, well China would not be where it is today.

          I also think its just quite amazing the degree to which they just did a complete about face on the whole communist piece, without losing any face or the mantle of power. And I believe whole heartedly that the way that China is now run, is spiritually not that different to the way it always was run, its another dynasty only this time they have franchised the power at the top instead of having an imperial family.

          If you think back to what the Chinese were before the 1900's, well things weren't that bad. And I think its going that way again.

          LYF, I'm not quite sure where you fit in in all of this, usually if your family has been persecuted and they got themselves abroad, it implies that you are part of the higher classes. If that is the case, I can appreciate where you are coming from to some degree. I, in the meanwhile, am married into a peasant family (who I've been talking to today, as SHX is back in Zhengzhou) in one of the very poorest provinces. What I see is utopic... they all have land, if the harvest come in, well everyone is happy, if the havest doesn't come in, because they haven't been living under tyranny, they've all got a cushion stashed away, and so they weather the adversity. Its very functional.

          As I said, the peasants are happy...

          Chicken

          Comment


          • #6
            If you look at other countries, eg. Israel. A very young country, coming from an incredibly abused and dysfunctional background you can see the country acting with all the subtlety of a two year old.
            I know a lot of Israeli's that would not only take great offense to that, but would embarass you in a discourse over this very concept.

            You put America into this alegory, and well, US had only 10s of years of legislative history, and is a teenager. I think the problems we have round the world at the moment, come from precisely that, that America's global supremecy happened at a point in time before it was really mature enough as a country to do itself justice.
            If you read recent Chinese history, as I have, I think you'll find that China has a long way to go with respect to laws and legal systems, period. I've read three bio's on Mao; they were very enlightening. The American legal system, though it has its faults, is far more mature than anything the Chinese have at the moment, with respect to rights for people.

            T
            hen you have China. China has not just 100s of years of legistlative experience, but thousands of years.... and this is probably a large reason why they account for around 25% of the global population.
            They account for such a large percentage, because they always have. India too. A thousand years ago, there were millions of them. Two hundred years ago, there were only a few Americans. It has to do with procreation and simple mathematics, not legislative experience. And if you think China has had "legislative experience" over the past thousand years of any significance, you have a lot of reading to do.

            Today we can see how they are behaving internationally. They are not contentious. They are not even contentiously trying to incorporate back HK & Taiwan. That would mess up the CCPs mandate from heaven to allow such disharmony to erupt on their watch.
            It has more to do with not pissing off the rest of the world before the Olympics. The amount of money and prestige that rides on this is unparalleled. After the Olympics, Taiwan is toast. Besides, China is being smart; they know Taiwan will come back into the fold eventually. As for HK, they have it, and they don't mess with it because they realize it is a huge moneymaker as it is. I really don't think they give a **** about a mandate from heaven.


            A
            ll things said... the biggest problem the globe is facing, is the plague of humanity that is in full swing on it, something which is underpinning the global climate changes, oil & other resource crises, etc. And on this point, perhaps China is the only country that is really doing anything serious about it... seeking to dramatically decrease its population.
            To think that China wants to reduce it's population because of global warming is ludicrous. They are one of the largest pollution producers in the world, just go to any of their cities. They have another problem related to their population, one is control, the other is feeding them. China has 7 percent of the worlds arable land, yet 25% of its population. Feeding their people has always been a problem; getting oil for all of their new cars is even more of a issue.



            Perhaps the one-child policy is coming our way... probably not in our life times, but perhaps in our childrens... might still seem draconian, but well its probably the only thing in 20 years time, that is going to save the human race from itself.
            Well, this contrasts with what was responded to in my other thread, that of illegal aliens going to the US (and other countries), having large illiterate and uneducated families, and sucking off the social tit.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

            (more comments in my User Profile)
            russbo.com


            Comment


            • #7
              Another tid bit about the one-child-policy is that Chinese families CAN still have more than one child. The parents won't be thrown in jail and the child wont be taken away, the parents will simply be fined. Why kill your people when you can make money off them instead ?

              In the big cities the fines can get pretty high, but in the more rural ones the fines arent bad at all, roughly 300 to 1200 yuan for the second kid depending where you live. The price rises with each additioinal kid of course. Those farming communities need hands to do the work, especially with so many young people running off to the cities now days. So the farmers aren't against paying, and sometimes there's other ways to get around it.

              I met a young girl in Kunming, Yunnan, a tour guide, who was the third of three girls. Seems her parents wanted a boy bad enough to pay for two more attempts at it. She said sometimes when she got in trouble her mother or father would tell her, "Don't forget, we had to pay a lot of money to bring you into this world. You'd better straighten up or we might seek an early return on our investment !".

              Anyway, point being, the pop. control is not as "in control" as one might believe.

              So I wouldn't count on pop. control and the one child policy "saving the world from ourselves".
              "Winners turn to losers, losers are forgotten..." - A Tribe Called Quest

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm not sure why the world is so afraid of china rising. It has to be one of the most corrupt systems in the world. Call me crazy but I hear things like china is going to be the next super power to dominate the world and I laugh. For one there is still the US, Europe and Russia to deal with. I doubt highly we americans and the europeans will just had over our influence to china and say "Ok your turn"

                Likewise its hard to see China becoming a major playr on the international scene. Thus far they have had a somewhat isolationist stance of recent global conflicts. I think we can depnd on china will always do whatever is their best intrest and leave it at that.

                But getting back to china itself. The system is so full of corruption its kinda ridiculous. They have so far to go to catch up to the western world I think we are safe for a while. People dont often talk about the little things such as clean drinking water, decent environment, clean air, tons of useless but cool consumer goods and the works but I think it makes a major difference.

                I just think china has a bad habit of over hyping everything they do. So youll forgive me if i doubt they claims of impending super power status.
                The essential point in science it not a complicated mathematical formalism or a ritualized experimentation. Rather the heart of science is a kind of shrewd honesty the springs from really wanting to know what the hell is going on!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Doc
                  I know a lot of Israeli's that would not only take great offense to that, but would embarass you in a discourse over this very concept.
                  Well I have a lot of Israeli friends too who are not so narrowminded and don't take the allegory personally. Mostly because they agree with the rest of it, and because they recognise their own toddling first steps as a nationstate. I think Israel is a great place and given their past, its remarkable how they are doing... having said this though, talk to them about the muslim encroachment... most believe that the jews will be a minority in Israel within a generation or two, so I should imagine your immigration position probably matches quite well with the Israelis Jewish population.

                  Originally posted by Doc
                  If you read recent Chinese history, as I have, I think you'll find that China has a long way to go with respect to laws and legal systems, period. I've read three bio's on Mao; they were very enlightening.
                  Disagree. China has just the right amount of laws and legal system for the Chinese at this given moment. They tried it before and decided they prefered Confusianism. They find our legal system too tight to breath... many of them, and these are people who are really internationalists, laugh in both mock contempt, but with an uneasiness that I think belies that for them the UK legal system is so vast and complex, they can't hope to get their heads round it having not grown up or being educated here. Now given that UK is an immigration nation... perhaps the fact that the legal system is so complex is one of the reasons why the immigrants have problems fitting in... so actually perhaps it is time for legal losening?

                  Originally posted by Doc
                  The American legal system, though it has its faults, is far more mature than anything the Chinese have at the moment, with respect to rights for people.
                  Look individualism elicits need for rights, and the Chinese have never cared for individualism so if you think that rights are high on their list of priorities, you got another thing coming. Does anyone know what proportion of the world is democratic, and what is otherwise? Only I suspect that we are in the minority, and are probably outweight by numbers by the Chinese alone... we don't like the idea that they would try to impress communism on us, so why we think that they give a toss about our ambitions for them to be democratic.... I really don't know?

                  Originally posted by Doc
                  They account for such a large percentage, because they always have. India too. A thousand years ago, there were millions of them. Two hundred years ago, there were only a few Americans. It has to do with procreation and simple mathematics, not legislative experience. And if you think China has had "legislative experience" over the past thousand years of any significance, you have a lot of reading to do.
                  Well actually I think you will find it has more to do with the fact that Europe remained fractionalised into nation states for millenias, and kept its population in check as a result of wars. The Chinese managed to unite and accepted legislation according to the dynasties and basically prospered... Clearly what you got going on in the USA now is not so dissimilar, once you stop the fighting on home turf, the population can grow. Clearly the chinese have been doing this longer than anyone.

                  Doc if you think that 4 thousand years of continual civilisation has nothing to do with this, I just want to point out that this indicates that whatever legislation deployed must have been effective in keeping law and order. Just because it doesn't meet the US idea of what is acceptable, doesn't make it unacceptable. It just points to more elitism...

                  On global warming... the only thing that is definitively going to stop taxing the planet is birth control / population shrinkage, eveything else we are just kidding ourselves. China is trying to control its population because of climate control. Not global climate control, but in China, in as much they know that if you take to much out you upset the balance (and you might think its tosh - but they still think its heaven's mandate).

                  With regard to the one-child-policy coming our way... my point is that well if you have immigration and "rights" well then you get the scenario that you seem to despise Doc.

                  Given the US laws that you speak so highly of in the US doesn't seem to address your perception of the immigrants breeding the "American" population into oblivion, well I'd say that that's definitely one area where the chinese are way in ahead of US legislatively.

                  My point is the quite possible scenario that when China comes to assert its global supremecy in years to come, facing the climate issues, etc, and having lead by example on birth control, it could quite feasibly start asking other companies to follow its example. And feasibly, not only ask, but make it very unattrative to not go along with them.

                  Baiwanxi... my maid is called Si Xiu. (4th beauty - she was the 4th girl in her family - they clearly were not very imaginative with names) She is from Hunanese peasant stock, she has 4 boys all in or approaching their early 20s...

                  There are plenty of examples where the one child policy has been applied generously.

                  By the way, if you go to the hospital and buy a child in Henan, you only have to pay the fee, not the penalty... a lot of people do this after having 2 girls or whatever.

                  Its harder to do this in the Southern Provinces... because the Americans come in and clean out the orpanages... there's one or two hotels down here that you can't go to without having to coo over newly adopted infants and their inter-racial parents.

                  Chicken

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Chicken
                    LYF & LFJ humble apologies for name mix up!

                    And LYF, sorry to hear that you have been so afflicted by the recent Chinese past. Look I'm not a communist, and I don't support the violence that went on within the recent Chinese past, but it was a bonafida revolution, and I don't think there has ever been one of those with out bloodshed.
                    No, don't do that. Don't chaulk up false imprisonment, family seperation/relocation, and murder to some cliche. As far as I could tell, the Communists were already in power. There was no revolution going on.

                    Also on that matter, its really something for a country to turn on itself. Things have to be pretty bad from everyone's perspective to get the consensus to do so. Personally, I believe that if things had continued the way they were before the Communist rise to power, well China would not be where it is today.
                    You forget that some of the greatest suffering was endured up until a few decades ago. It was just kept quiet because Communism had a stranglehold on everything and everyone. And don't say it's because "It's always darkest before the sun rises" or something. It isn't.

                    I also think its just quite amazing the degree to which they just did a complete about face on the whole communist piece, without losing any face or the mantle of power. And I believe whole heartedly that the way that China is now run, is spiritually not that different to the way it always was run, its another dynasty only this time they have franchised the power at the top instead of having an imperial family.
                    Well, they're still Communist. The just don't act in an overt Socialist manner. They're still Communist, and that is absolutely huge.

                    [quote]
                    If you think back to what the Chinese were before the 1900's, well things weren't that bad. And I think its going that way again.[quote]

                    That's because they had more or less successfully shut themselves out from the rest of the world. When the dam broke, you had atrocities like the Japanese Invasion, the Opium Trade, colonization, etc.

                    LYF, I'm not quite sure where you fit in in all of this, usually if your family has been persecuted and they got themselves abroad, it implies that you are part of the higher classes.
                    One side of my family flew here directly. I may agree with you on that, my father was only 10. My mothers side was the horror story. The family was broken up by the governement, both parents were imprisoned -- one was killed, and the rest of the family had to fend for themselves after being relocated to a rural area. Kids went off trying to sneak into HK, where some attempts were successful and some weren't...Money was sent back to help those left behind, and my mother didn't make it to America until she was in her 20's. I'd say it was a far cry from being well off.


                    If that is the case, I can appreciate where you are coming from to some degree. I, in the meanwhile, am married into a peasant family (who I've been talking to today, as SHX is back in Zhengzhou) in one of the very poorest provinces. What I see is utopic... they all have land, if the harvest come in, well everyone is happy, if the havest doesn't come in, because they haven't been living under tyranny, they've all got a cushion stashed away, and so they weather the adversity. Its very functional.

                    As I said, the peasants are happy...

                    Chicken

                    That's great thing things have turned around for these people. But happiness can often lead to complacentcy. I happen to think that complacentcy is the bane of individualism, among other things. In terms of government, it gives them free range over whatever they feel like doing. In terms of a Communist government where power happens to be held by a handful...When you add into the equation that the majority of the Chinese population is more or less uneducated, I think the implications can be devastating.
                    Becoming what I've dreamed about.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      LYF

                      Originally posted by LYF
                      No, don't do that. Don't chaulk up false imprisonment, family seperation/relocation, and murder to some cliche. As far as I could tell, the Communists were already in power. There was no revolution going on.
                      LYF, no, you are not fair. I had no awareness of your particulars, so what do you want me to do, say nothing? Or say well that's life? Clearly, you and your family have suffered considerably, and whatever those circumstances I was just trying to impart that I'm genuinely sorry. If you can't accept that then that's your bag not mine. The comment I made about revolutions being bloody, is factual, and if you think it doesn't apply then just say so. Why be so ungenerous and ungracious as to not accept the sentiment?

                      Without knowing the particulars, and treading probably extremely clumsily on what is clearly a very senstive matter for you and your family, I just want to point out that revolutions don't take place in just a few years. The trauma of the situation before the revolution, the period of strife, and the post period that consists of the time until every last person that can remember the revolution taking place second-hand has passed away are all part of "the revolution". What is materially different after this whole process is the revolution. Basically, what we are seeing in China now is the post-period aspect, its a terrified people propelled into intense action, for fear of ever slipping back to the times that went on before the early 1900s or through the laterpart of the 1900s itself. Fear that there will ever be more attrocities like those that your family has been subject to.

                      Originally posted by LYF
                      You forget that some of the greatest suffering was endured up until a few decades ago. It was just kept quiet because Communism had a stranglehold on everything and everyone. And don't say it's because "It's always darkest before the sun rises" or something. It isn't.
                      I think I already addressed that, however, I can speak for myself LYF, why second guess and dismiss what I might say before I said it?

                      Originally posted by LYF
                      Well, they're still Communist. The just don't act in an overt Socialist manner. They're still Communist, and that is absolutely huge.
                      Is it? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, its safe to assume its a duck.
                      If it doesn't look like a duck, it doesn't walk like a duck, and its just called a duck, is it safe to assume its a duck? So I beg to differ. Its communist only in moniker.

                      Originally posted by LYF
                      I'd say it was a far cry from being well off.
                      Never said you were well off, being part of the higher classes in the last century in China, generally implies that you were the least well off, as that is what the revolution was all about, giving power back to the lower classes, transfering them well off-ness in the wholistic meaning of the phrase.

                      Originally posted by LYF
                      That's great thing things have turned around for these people. But happiness can often lead to complacentcy. I happen to think that complacentcy is the bane of individualism, among other things. In terms of government, it gives them free range over whatever they feel like doing. In terms of a Communist government where power happens to be held by a handful...When you add into the equation that the majority of the Chinese population is more or less uneducated, I think the implications can be devastating.
                      Regarding that which I have highlighted above, I just don't get it, why we consistently apply the concepts that we think are fundamental to another race? The chinese couldn't give two hoots about the cult of individualism, never have and never will, so what you say just doesn't apply to chinese in mainland china today. Its like a compulsory complacency... they are not allow to be invested in who has the power, its absolute.

                      The rest I agree with you, but note that almost universally in the west, we are often more than 50% no different with respective electorates falling in many cases below 50% of the voting public. The public is apathetic because for the most, it doesn't really matter who is in power. In China it is different, but not all that different, in that they've decided that that won't just apply for 50% of the people, but for all of the people.

                      Aside from all of this, thanks for allowing us to be privy to your families's stories. I wish you and your family better times henceforth.

                      Chicken

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        First off, thank you for being sensitive on this subject. I was aware that you did not know anything of what occured to my family so I did not expect anything. I am not angry with you or at all for the matter, and was not at the time when I wrote the previous post. Just wanted to get that out there.

                        Originally posted by Chicken
                        I just want to point out that revolutions don't take place in just a few years. The trauma of the situation before the revolution, the period of strife, and the post period that consists of the time until every last person that can remember the revolution taking place second-hand has passed away are all part of "the revolution". What is materially different after this whole process is the revolution. Basically, what we are seeing in China now is the post-period aspect, its a terrified people propelled into intense action, for fear of ever slipping back to the times that went on before the early 1900s or through the laterpart of the 1900s itself. Fear that there will ever be more attrocities like those that your family has been subject to.
                        Well this is what I intially wanted to highlight with my allegories to my family. Basically I wanted to say that the abuse of power in China's recent past has been huge. Despite things being unsettled, shit went on that is completely unforgivable on the grounds that things were still hectic. And how did this go on? Why did it go on? Simply because a few people were too powerful.

                        I think I already addressed that, however, I can speak for myself LYF, why second guess and dismiss what I might say before I said it?
                        The only reason I did was because it felt to me like you were making unwarranted excuses. I also addressed this previously.


                        Is it? If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, its safe to assume its a duck.
                        If it doesn't look like a duck, it doesn't walk like a duck, and its just called a duck, is it safe to assume its a duck? So I beg to differ. Its communist only in moniker.
                        Perhaps economically not. I was wrong to place the emphasis on their economic foundations when I wanted to attack their distribution of power. As far as that goes, I don't trust them in the very least.


                        Regarding that which I have highlighted above, I just don't get it, why we consistently apply the concepts that we think are fundamental to another race? The chinese couldn't give two hoots about the cult of individualism, never have and never will, so what you say just doesn't apply to chinese in mainland china today. Its like a compulsory complacency... they are not allow to be invested in who has the power, its absolute.
                        Do you ever wonder why they don't believe in it? I think you'd get a different result if you educate the people a bit more. They aren't a different "race". They are a different culture...so maybe they are a little more communal than others. But we're all human beings and I think that it just takes some doing to make people realize that they are in fact important as individuals.


                        The rest I agree with you, but note that almost universally in the west, we are often more than 50% no different with respective electorates falling in many cases below 50% of the voting public. The public is apathetic because for the most, it doesn't really matter who is in power. In China it is different, but not all that different, in that they've decided that that won't just apply for 50% of the people, but for all of the people.
                        You're right about that. There are a lot of people that fall through the cracks, and 50% is a generous overestimate for Americans, but I'd rather 1,000,000 people hold tangible power than 100 or 10.



                        Aside from all of this, thanks for allowing us to be privy to your families's stories. I wish you and your family better times henceforth.

                        Chicken
                        Thanks. I don't like to spew this out whenever I get the chance, but I thought it applied in this case.
                        Becoming what I've dreamed about.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LYF
                          Well this is what I intially wanted to highlight with my allegories to my family. Basically I wanted to say that the abuse of power in China's recent past has been huge. Despite things being unsettled, shit went on that is completely unforgivable on the grounds that things were still hectic. And how did this go on? Why did it go on? Simply because a few people were too powerful.
                          I am with you that its terrible that these things happened. I'm not trying to suggest that heinious crimes were not committed.

                          Was it because a few people were too powerful? There are many powerful people but it takes quite something for a people to turn on itself as happened. The oppression of the peasants back as far as 1911 was probably what elicited the latent forces that ignihted the revolution. People don't follow people if they aren't looking for a leader. Also usually even when they are looking for a leader, they won't usually follow one as far as they did on the Long March.

                          I'm not trying to make unwarranted excuses... I'm just posing another way of looking at the situation rather than saying: "Communism is to blame". The present CCP moved away from all those things that happened, and does not support these things happening, no doubt because they were probably equally traumatised by what they observed or knew was happening. I think its certainly appropriate to hold the Chinese Govt at the time responsible for what happened. Only continuing to blame the Chinese Govt today is a little wide of the mark... its like blaming the present day German and Japanese governments for the attrocities of the 2nd World War... it doesn't stick as far as I see it anyway.

                          Originally posted by LYF
                          Do you ever wonder why they don't believe in it? I think you'd get a different result if you educate the people a bit more. They aren't a different "race". They are a different culture...so maybe they are a little more communal than others. But we're all human beings and I think that it just takes some doing to make people realize that they are in fact important as individuals.
                          Yes, I do, because they've never believed in it, as it threatens the family. The family is the individual in China. What you are asking them to do is something similar to asking one of us individuals to split our self and start considering ourselves as mulitiple dissociated personalities. Yup, you'd have to be crazy to do this, but that's how they feel about individualism. I don't think that education makes any difference at all. I know many highly educated Chinese, living both in and outside China, and very few of them think individualism is the answer to everything.

                          I think that very few young Chinese people here in China do not feel important as individuals. Its the opposite. I think a young Chinese person today, especially if they are a product of the one child policy, realises that they are SUPER important, and not only that that they are bearly individual at all, because their entire life is already determined. They are gonna work their butts off to support their child(ren) and two sets of parents. That's an importancy that very few of us here in the West can ever appreciate.

                          LYF, I'm not quite sure why you and many other democracy lobbying types, think you can change China for the better with a dose of individualism. How would you feel if it was coming at you the other way? That China thinks that the best thing that can happen to the US is that the US becomes communist and all the US people need to do to achieve that is to be less individualistic? I think you would be outraged, so then I don't get it why you don't see that they are outraged by you projecting individuality and democracy onto them so?

                          Originally posted by LYF
                          Thanks. I don't like to spew this out whenever I get the chance, but I thought it applied in this case.
                          That is an interesting admission as it seems to be quite cultural. The Chinese over here do not like opening up about their recent pasts either. We can only become better informed about what really happened by accounts of not only what happened, but how it is continues to affect individuals today. I'm not implying that your story is not significant, but if you stay in China for a time and develop some strong friendships, you start to hear stories. Very few are as harrowing as yours LYF, but I'm sure you will agree with me, its not a p***ing contest. So two come to mind.

                          My boss, who is a fabulously successful Chinese billionaire entrepreneur, cites his success on the experiences he had as a child in Shandong. He watch people starve to death around him. He thinks this gave him the drive to succeed, in as much that he associates these experiences with failure.

                          Last week I ate dinner next to a much older Chinese friend, and discovered that his wife is a CCP General, and that her father completed the Long March, also that he has a photographic memory as he entertained me by skethching with a pen and paper 4 different types of British UK cars from his head.

                          Anyway... again thanks for sharing... I think its valuable to express your families experiences, as its only from these experiences that we can all learn how not to facilitate these situations to happen again.

                          So LYF, if you don't mind my asking, are you American born Chinese, or am I misassuming and you are Caucasian and adopted by Chinese parents (which is the opposite reality of many Chinese living in the US today)?

                          Kind regards

                          Chicken
                          Last edited by Chicken; 04-05-2007, 04:56 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Chicken
                            The oppression of the peasants back as far as 1911 was probably what elicited the latent forces that ignihted the revolution. People don't follow people if they aren't looking for a leader. Also usually even when they are looking for a leader, they won't usually follow one as far as they did on the Long March.
                            I can see why you're making the "historical" comments that you are. Typical Chinese history, I've heard it from Chinese friends before. Just FYI, many of the peasants did not follow Mao out of desire for looking for a leader.

                            They did because they were terrorized to do so.

                            You're spewing out the "classical" Chinese history as has been told for the past few decades. You should read the latest stuff that is being written, based upon factual evidence being recently released.

                            Remember Chicken, everybody writes their own history. USSD, Xingwei, Yanming, China, the Mormons, etc, etc, and they rewrite it also, to suit the occasion and the need. Eventually, the truth comes out, with time. Your posts are full of the typical, usual bullshit that I've heard from many Chinese friends, regurgitating what they were taught, what they see on Chinese controlled television, what they're fearful parents tell them. But, eventually, the truth does spread....
                            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                            (more comments in my User Profile)
                            russbo.com


                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Chicken

                              Was it because a few people were too powerful? There are many powerful people but it takes quite something for a people to turn on itself as happened. The oppression of the peasants back as far as 1911 was probably what elicited the latent forces that ignihted the revolution. People don't follow people if they aren't looking for a leader. Also usually even when they are looking for a leader, they won't usually follow one as far as they did on the Long March.
                              To me this is the wrong frame of reference. I'm talking about the 50's and 60's, even up to the 80's. I'm talking about recent abuses of power due to few people. I'm not talking about how and why Mao came into power. What's important is that he was already IN power.

                              I'm not trying to make unwarranted excuses... I'm just posing another way of looking at the situation rather than saying: "Communism is to blame". The present CCP moved away from all those things that happened, and does not support these things happening, no doubt because they were probably equally traumatised by what they observed or knew was happening. I think its certainly appropriate to hold the Chinese Govt at the time responsible for what happened. Only continuing to blame the Chinese Govt today is a little wide of the mark... its like blaming the present day German and Japanese governments for the attrocities of the 2nd World War... it doesn't stick as far as I see it anyway.
                              This is an inaccurate comparison. Germany and Japan paid for their crimes as a whole, for the most part. Mao and his cronies just died, it's not the same.

                              Yes, I do, because they've never believed in it, as it threatens the family. The family is the individual in China. What you are asking them to do is something similar to asking one of us individuals to split our self and start considering ourselves as mulitiple dissociated personalities. Yup, you'd have to be crazy to do this, but that's how they feel about individualism. I don't think that education makes any difference at all. I know many highly educated Chinese, living both in and outside China, and very few of them think individualism is the answer to everything.

                              I think that very few young Chinese people here in China do not feel important as individuals. Its the opposite. I think a young Chinese person today, especially if they are a product of the one child policy, realises that they are SUPER important, and not only that that they are bearly individual at all, because their entire life is already determined. They are gonna work their butts off to support their child(ren) and two sets of parents. That's an importancy that very few of us here in the West can ever appreciate.
                              Their life is already determined you say? Not the individualism I am talking about. The kind where you take charge of your own life. If you don't know many Chinese that think individualism is important, well, now you know. I live with the same expectations as you mentioned. That isn't stopping me from doing what I believe in, and it doesn't make my family any less important.

                              LYF, I'm not quite sure why you and many other democracy lobbying types, think you can change China for the better with a dose of individualism.
                              I'm not saying that their lives suck without believing in the same stuff as us. That's petty and worthless. As always, this subject has been about why people shouldn't and don't trust China. And as such, I don't trust them at all because they won't distribute power more thuroughly, via their disbelief in individualism. What I was trying to do was make a connection between their lack of individualism and their concentrated power distribution.


                              How would you feel if it was coming at you the other way? That China thinks that the best thing that can happen to the US is that the US becomes communist and all the US people need to do to achieve that is to be less individualistic? I think you would be outraged, so then I don't get it why you don't see that they are outraged by you projecting individuality and democracy onto them so?
                              I believe that if and when China is effectively running everything, this WILL happen. Perhaps they won't force it on us, but like someone previously said, they can make it god damn unattractive not to.



                              That is an interesting admission as it seems to be quite cultural. The Chinese over here do not like opening up about their recent pasts either. We can only become better informed about what really happened by accounts of not only what happened, but how it is continues to affect individuals today. I'm not implying that your story is not significant, but if you stay in China for a time and develop some strong friendships, you start to hear stories. Very few are as harrowing as yours LYF, but I'm sure you will agree with me, its not a p***ing contest. So two come to mind.


                              My boss, who is a fabulously successful Chinese billionaire entrepreneur, cites his success on the experiences he had as a child in Shandong. He watch people starve to death around him. He thinks this gave him the drive to succeed, in as much that he associates these experiences with failure.

                              Last week I ate dinner next to a much older Chinese friend, and discovered that his wife is a CCP General, and that her father completed the Long March, also that he has a photographic memory as he entertained me by skethching with a pen and paper 4 different types of British UK cars from his head.

                              Anyway... again thanks for sharing... I think its valuable to express your families experiences, as its only from these experiences that we can all learn how not to facilitate these situations to happen again.

                              So LYF, if you don't mind my asking, are you American born Chinese, or am I misassuming and you are Caucasian and adopted by Chinese parents (which is the opposite reality of many Chinese living in the US today)?

                              Kind regards

                              Chicken
                              No, it's not a pissing contest...


                              I'm an ABC. "Lei Yun Fat" is my Chinese name.
                              Becoming what I've dreamed about.

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