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  • #31
    It's not hate....

    In fact, hate is closer to love than you think.
    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

    (more comments in my User Profile)


    • #32
      Sorry even longer, not for the faint hearted.

      Sorry been busy, couldn’t keep up with this wonderful esoteric frivolity of the most profound significance.
      Below a splattering of reflections on points made above.

      Zachsan, go for it lad, run as fast as you can as far as you can and never look down! Good luck to you.

      Doc you can do better than that!
      I know you’ve had a bang on the head but that’s a bit of a lazy statement from a man with a scientific education isn’t it?
      If it’s the hormones that make us feel lustful and the result of lust is sex and the result of sex is reproduction your argument logically must be the ultimate product of life is more life, not lust. Hence the word reproduce, which has the word produce in it.
      Actually i think that’s just semantics, there isn’t and ultimate in that scenario it’s an ever continuing loop.

      Yes polar opposites always a good mental tool.
      Of course love, hate. We all know that rhyme, and if we are talking about the passionate, romantic, illusory kind of love, i’d agree with that.
      That kind of love is an agreeable sensation arising from stimulus, and hate makes a pretty good opposite.
      A disagreeable sensation arising from stimulus.
      However if we’re talking about love as “the willingness etc.” as defined above, seems to be pretty close to Splinters idea, the opposite would be evil. Attempts to prevent growth, or enlightenment. All those little lies we tell ourselves. “I don’t care.” “it’s not my fault.” “There’s no point in trying.” and all repressive regimes and doctrines.

      Yes Splinter i agree with you love is a tool for positive evolution, not sure i follow you on the revolution.
      The ultimate product of life, the one thing that stands out, that nothing else produces, that is quite distinct from all the other things life produces. Huum...
      Love, well maybe but in what way is love distinct from fear or evil or gas or more life.
      Love may seem ultimate to us because it’s so important to us, but the universe really doesn’t give a shit about it, ( actually i don’t think the universe has a consciousness to give a shit with).
      In the same way the argument the ultimate consequence and opposite of life is death is really is a very ego centric view.
      It’s only our personal experience of life that stops. Life itself rarely stops. Before we come into being as the individuals we feel ourselves to be there are living cells, we are, as i write and you read, being consumed by other bacterial lives and in turn consuming them. As we die, still living cells will be consumed and become other creatures.
      Life itself will roll on constantly recycling itself taking the molecules and their process’ that we now inhabit through a myriad of other creatures.
      It’s only our egos that won’t continue that journey, this particular consciousness of which we are so intensely fond.
      Even the non living stages of that recycling process could be argued to be the stuff of life. The soil needed to grow most plants is made up of a great deal of organic matter, the air we breath was manufactured by the last lot to pollute themselves off the surface of the planet. The anaerobic organisms, bacteria and the like.

      All the molecular structures in the universe are in entropy, breaking down into their simplest and most disordered state. With the exception of those involved in life. The way i look at it the ultimate product of life is order, complexity.
      Which all sounds pretty boring till you go outside and look at it, bugs and leaves and symmetry and things germinating at just the right moment, realise your eyes are doing things with those molecules so you can see, and your brain’s going “wow” with molecules because life gets them to stick together in that particular pattern. How weird is that! It’s such an extraordinary accident it can stimulate that rush of molecules through the brain causing that sensation of marvel, joy, love.

      Our consciousness’, when uncluttered, as a product of that system of order can not help but find it beautiful, marvellous, we have been programmed by it, we are of it. To care for it, play in it, in all the ways it presents itself, agreeable and disagreeable, makes us profoundly happy.
      But to see that one has to learn to stop worrying about ones phone bill, and whether you’re going to get laid or not.

      So from the point of view of a human being, which of course if you are reading this is the point of view you also are stuck with, ( i don’t think the aliens or Buddha are likely to read this) and you want to be happy, which you are also stuck with, once we unclutter our minds from all the everyday stuff we obsess about, i’d agree with Splinter, there is an inevitability about coming to love in the spiritual sense, i guess one could say that for humans love is the ultimate product of life. There is a compulsion eventually to arrive at it.

      An interesting thought occurred whilst writing this. That the stuff of which we are made, with which we think these thoughts, will one day given enough time, swim the oceans, fly on wings, feel undying love in some species that is programmed for that. But only if it’s gets enough time, and there we are going to have to prove ourselves somewhat smarter than the unicellular anaerobic bacteria, who were so successful as a species they quite simply breathed themselves almost to extinction.
      Are we with all our trips to the moon, works of Shakespeare, and mobile phones going to demonstrate a higher level of consciousness and discipline not to do the same.
      It’s an interesting question to ask yourself. How do i justify the idea that i am a more advanced species than the anaerobic bacteria?
      A pleasantly humbling thought, we can be awfully pompous about ourselves sometimes. I like to remember we share, i think it’s 90%, of our genetic code with a banana.

      But yes love as a tool for positive evolution. I’m with you on that one Splinter if we don’t stop driving the Ferrari of a brain we each have to the store and back in second gear, it’s not looking so good for us, or the current planetary eco system. Human evolution is going to come from how each of us decides to use our brains. Either we each decide to get conscious and disciplined or we run fast and far and come neck and neck with the anaerobes.
      It’s of little consequence, i have a feeling life will carry on in some other form, i can’t help feeling it would be a shame if we managed to snuff it out completely, but then i’m programmed that way just like you. We’re just stuck with it, we care. I can’t help coming back to the conclusion we might as well make the best of it, do the job properly, and learn to love.

      Thank you for your patience if you read this far.


      • #33
        Good post Sarah. I read it all.

        Oh, and by the way, it's all about lust.

        And, the opposite of love is not hate.

        It's apathy.
        Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

        "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

        (more comments in my User Profile)


        • #34
          apathy vs. hatred

          I agree with Doc: excellent post, Sarah. I did read it all.
          Care to further explain how is Apathy the exact polar oposite of love?

          love /lʌv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[luhv] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, loved, lov·ing.
          1. a profoundly tender, passionate affection for another person.
          2. a feeling of warm personal attachment or deep affection, as for a parent, child, or friend.
          3. sexual passion or desire.

          —Antonyms 1, 2. hatred, dislike.

          ap·a·thy /ˈæpəθi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ap-uh-thee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
          –noun, plural -thies.
          1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.
          2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.

          So, in a way, the absence of passion (passionate affection) could be defined as lack of love (apathy), but I wouldnt call it the exact polar opposite. I would go more with hatred or dislike.

          and yes, it's all about lust.

          Actually, it is curious, because in spanish, we define love in mostly two words: "querer" and "amar". There is a difference: "Te quiero" which can be defined or interpreted as "I love you" or also "I want you" from "querer" which is "to want", or "to love (in a lesser extent)".
          "te amo" is to admit feeling love for a person in spanish, and are usually major words when you say that to someone.

          In simpler words, we say "te quiero" to a close friend, but "te amo" to a loved one, or an immediate family member (brother, daughter, mother, etc.)

          as a song goes: "Porque todos sabemos querer, pero pocos sabemos amar" -Jose Jose
          -"we all know how to "want" but a only a few of us know how to love".
          No Chumbas, por favor!


          • #35
            What exactly do you mean?

            "It's all about lust." "No it's all about peanuts," she retorted!
            Please expand on that opinion guys. Otherwise we don't get a discussion just a word slinging game.
            Are you with Splinter and i on the several kinds of love theory? The one of which he and i have been principally speaking being the "spiritual" one. (English is realy impoverished when it comes to love. A sad reflection on the importance of it in our culture no doubt.) Or are you saying that you feel lustful towards for example your son? i don't think so, so what do you call that if it's not love?
            Come on 20 lines each on the subject of lust please.


            • #36
              The reason why hate is closer to love on the "feelings" scale (ok, I just made that up), is because there are feelings, something to trigger the hate.

              Apathy is the opposite of love, as there are no feelings at all.

              OK, I didn't explain that well. Had a rough night, still sleepy. Sarah will clarify this for all of us. She's a woman. They understand this feeling stuff better than we do.
              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

              (more comments in my User Profile)


              • #37
                well, i guess i... kind of.. guessed right. i was thinking the answer was "disinterest."

                pretty close. (pats self on back.. lol)


                • #38
                  Compliments were a bad idea! I’ll be writing a book here before long!

                  Sorry i was cooking super and posting at the same time when i last posted. I wanted to say thank you for the comments, t’was nice. Thank you.

                  Onespring, shocked i was! Then i thought perhaps i’m reading you wrong and you mean you guessed “right” what Doc’s opinion would be.
                  This is Doc’s rubber room i can’t imagine anyone in here professes to know what their talking about, no right or wrong answers here, i’m sure we’re all just stumbling about in the dark trying to reach a consensus on, if there is a light switch and where it might be found. Got any ideas?

                  Doc, apathy opposite of love, yes. I’ll think on that. There is something brewing in the old grey matter to do with, love, enlightenment, and something Splinter said about symmetry and balance, equal and opposite which links in with that.
                  I’ve a feeling there’s an error in my thinking somewhere but i can’t quite get a hold of it, yet. (Of course there are billions, but one step at a time eh!)

                  As for women understanding emotions. You’ve been driving down to the store too often in second gear. You can’t have gotten to where you got professionally without a pretty capable brain. O.K. it went off line for a bit, and may not be configured exactly as it was before, but that’s all the more reason to take it for a spin, put it through it’s paces.
                  Perhaps Women in general, due to both inherent and social learning, have a better understanding of their own feelings, hence those of others. But we can equally get ourselves stuck in a quagmire of emotional goo without the logical application required to move forward.

                  It could be that in this area a scientific education does you a disservice.
                  I suspect one of the drawbacks of the dominance of scientific understanding in our culture is the lack of intelligent thought we apply to our feelings.
                  Scientific knowledge is so powerful because it is constructed according to strict rules about measurable, demonstrable and reproducible criteria. However this requirement has to my mind two other significant effects.
                  One it’s very expensive to produce, it usually requires qualified people to spend a long time testing stuff. The consequence of that being it’s usually only done in areas where there is likely to be some financial return.
                  Two there are a lot of areas where it is really hard to get hold of something to measure or weigh. How does one measure lust other than subjectively?
                  Consequently lots of important areas receive little scientific investigation.

                  For those of us going about our everyday lives and not disposed to contemplate such subjects i think this often gives the impression that if something is not scientifically established it’s either, not of importance, methodological thought on the subject is pointless, or maybe it doesn’t actually exist. Our emotional and spiritual lives can fall into this category.
                  There is of course sociology and psychology, but it has to be said that progress is slow and in practical application knowledge issuing from these often proves to be little more effective in keeping people happy than that produced by more ancient systems of belief, religions and the like.

                  I think the effect this has on us as individuals is the we often split ours lives in two. The part to which we apply logical thinking, seeking efficiency, profitability, and the part we leave as a jungle of confusing emotion unpenatrated by methodological thought.
                  The consequence being we find ourselves organising the practicalities of our lives without compassion or consideration for the less tangible, yet no less significant, parts of ourselves and others, and conducting our emotional lives as a string of knee jerk responses to little understood and even less schooled emotions.
                  I’m sure this lack of integrity is the cause of much unhappiness in modern societies.

                  We can’t by our own thought produce scientific knowledge about ourselves, but i see know reason not to apply the same rigour of examination, cross examination, testing, comparison and all the other tools of methodological thought to the subject of “What do i feel and why, and what do i really want to do about it?”
                  This of course is not going to make any of us capable of doing what we want, that will take practice, old habits die hard, the subconscious will have to retrain.
                  However i find logical thought is a damn good nutcracker, breaks open all the contradictions, and lazy premisses on which we build our understanding of the world and ourselves and the other people in it, and it is actually that understanding we respond to emotionally not what the world actually is.
                  Armed with an intellectual appreciation of what one is aiming at i’m sure it’s easier to maintain faith in the often painful process of reintegration.
                  It is this process of becoming a person of integrity that i call learning to love. The kind of person capable of delivering what is in Splinters poem.

                  Anyone reading this, if anyone still is!
                  What do you feel like when you manage to do some of those things in Splinters poem?
                  What do you think it would feel like to be capable of doing all those things, all the time?
                  How would you feel about yourself, if you could, or even if you just tried?
                  Onespring what do you think?

                  Compliments were a bad idea guys! I’ll be writing a book here before long!


                  • #39
                    Yes, great post Sarah.

                    Oh, and by the way, it's all about lust.

                    This love stuff.
                    Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                    "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                    (more comments in my User Profile)


                    • #40
                      I am inspired by the human condition, the things that i see and hear, world events, dictators, corrupt governments, abuse of power, corporate greed, mental disorders, weapons of mass destruction, child abuse, homelessness, poverty, 1st class citizens, the opressed, the neglected, the protected, the STARVING, as fast food chains all over the world THROW AWAY FOOD EVERY NIGHT!

                      People lock dumpsters so homeless people cant sleep inside them, i mean c'mon, let the guy sleep in the dumpster.

                      lol, i mean shit is just STUPID!

                      i could go on and on all night about the human condition, lil ol me, a NOBODY! A HIGH SCHOOL DROPOUT!!! A LOSER!!!

                      What does that mean to me? it means that no one else i doing anything about it.

                      i logically deduct, that if my dumbass thinks of things like this, then some smartguy out tere would be lightyears ahead of me making progress with it already...

                      but thats not the case.

                      In school they teach you about martin luther king, they teach you about how he was killed, how he died, every little detail, but the funny thing is, is that they never tell you why... why was he killed, who shot him? why?

                      ill tell you why, he stood for the people, just like abraham lincoln, jfk, everyone who has been assasinated has been for the PEOPLE!

                      so what does that tell you about the government?

                      sounds like more of a mafia than a government...

                      and that goes for all governments! im no anarchist, im all for order, but in this case, the concept of order which has benn FORCED upon the public is very wrong, its pathetic, even idiotic.

                      i wish the immortal aliens from zeta reticuli would hurry up and give me an intergalactic spaceship so i can fly my family away far far away from this cursed perverse crooked and obscene planet...
                      "Life is a run. In attack we run, in defense we run. When you can no longer run, time to die" - Shichiroji "Seven samurai"


                      • #41
                        For Splinter.

                        Sorry Splinter your last scream did not go unnoticed into space. I commend your courage to remain conscious of the worlds ills and therefore be in pain.
                        I’ve actually already had a couple of goes at starting a reply, but i’ve been very busy and you really have gone for the big ones haven’t you!
                        You didn’t get global warming in there but there is just about every other ill humanity brings upon itself, and has always done under every shade of social organisation it’s ever tried. All the big ones that the great thinkers have puzzled over from every kind of perspective ever since we were conscious enough to take a step back, look at ourselves and say “What the f*%k are we doing!”
                        But you are pained because to you the solutions seem simple.
                        It just isn’t possible to address everything you’ve bought up here, but i would like to encourage you to keep going, and most importantly learn to deal with the pain.

                        I find if i’m not to become utterly depressed by what you describe, it’s very important to make the distinction between simple and easy.
                        Loosing weight is very very simple. You quite simply eat less calories than you burn. But as a multimillion dollar industry testifies it is not easy.
                        Graduating high school is simple you just study hard enough, but as you know there are a great many factors which influence such things, it’s not easy.
                        In a great many cases the madness which you describe happens because for it to stop someone has to give something up, or make an effort, simple not easy.

                        Another important distinction to make is the difference between intelligence and wisdom.
                        Intelligence can solve problems, invent solutions, make ring pull cans and digital watches.
                        Wisdom knows how happiness is found, it requires the kind of integration i spoke of in my last post, it requires the willingness to face pain and a dedication to persistent mental effort.
                        A lot of intelligent people aren’t even aware of the distinction between the two, let alone have the courage to make the effort to acquire wisdom.
                        I’m not at all sure that being born intelligent is any greater assistance to the acquisition of wisdom than, having a good ear for music, being born beautiful or knowing how to make people laugh.

                        I get the impression that one of the things which causes you so much pain is the idea that there are some people somewhere who have the power to stop the madness.
                        I suspect you like most people subscribe to the point of view that power exists in hierarchical systems. For each group of people there is is someone in charge who has control.
                        In western countries we tend to elect those people. They put themselves forward for election and are willing to accept responsibility for directing our lives. Poor deluded fools!
                        A process which inherently tends to attract power freaks who’s desire, even need, is to continue the belief, theirs and ours, that they have control over us.
                        There are also those who build commercial empires, who anonymously seduce us with cheap, attractive products produced in unregulated sweat shops where people work all day for a bowl of rice. But in both these cases power is given to these people by us, by crosses on ballot papers or dollars from our wallets.

                        There is an alternative theory of power by an Austrian or German, whose name i can’t remember either, which to me explains what actually goes on with far more exactitude.
                        That is that power is in a constantly fluctuating tide, an unconscious conspiracy by “the people” who cause it alight or channel through certain people at certain times.
                        Millions of inclinations, considered or arbitrary, millions of tiny acts everyday.
                        Choices about what we buy, whether we throw down litter or pick it up. Whether we give up our seat on the bus, or turn away and look out the window. Tiny, tiny acts of kindness and responsibility or inconsiderate, careless, laziness, millions of drops falling like dominoes one upon another which once flowing make an unstoppable tide.

                        We create a society by these acts and then call upon leaders to respond to what we have made in whatever way we feel is appropriate. We decide we need politicians who will create a a society which cares for the frail, designated seats on busses. We find our environment unpleasant and call for more public spending on keeping it litter free.
                        Unconsciously we in the west most frequently pass the buck. It suits us well to abandon responsibility for the power we have, not to remain conscious of just how much influence our millions of tiny unconscious choices have on the rest of the world. Until one day someone flies an aeroplane into a building, and we don’t understand why.

                        Consider also that governments have fallen because “the people” just stopped playing the game. They all just got out on the street and stood there all day and all night with candles and roses all of them. The president still had control of the generals he could have said “Go out and shoot them!”, maybe he did. There comes a point at which the generals don’t want to play anymore either.
                        It was tried in Tian an men square a few years before, not enough power at that time in that place, it is beyond the control of any one person or group.
                        You mentioned Martin Luther King. One of my heroes. A man who did not seek the power he had, he wanted to go home to his family, he knew he would most likely not live to see his children grow up, but he also knew that power had alighted on him and that he could make a difference, and he did not step down.
                        His influence on societies may well be as great, and with time be greater, by his example as a man of integrity than by any political change he brought about.
                        If you read some of his speeches i think you will get the impression that King did not see a great difference between the governed and the governing he saw them all as “God’s children”. I think he had a similar understanding of how power works. He of course attributed it to “The Almighty” a power which is too vast and complex and mysterious for any one of us to understand we can only respond to the tide with conscience and integrity.

                        So where does that leave us who look out on a world of cruelty, which we feel powerless to change. How do we manage to bear what we see.
                        Most of us of course turn our heads and look the other way, run far and fast and don’t look down, and sometimes it’s the only way.
                        Those like you who continue to remain conscious of the sadness and continue to rant against it are to be congratulated.
                        As Doc says to become apathetic or cynical and pretend that a state of indifference is some how more intelligent or realistic is indeed to deny love for yourself as well as everyone else, and in fact is no less unrealistic than believing we just have to be nice to each other.
                        Love will stay conscious even if it is painful to do so, but it will continue to love.

                        So how do we continue to love and not as King said in the famous “I have a dream” speech “in our struggle for freedom let us not fall into the trap of hatred and bitterness.” There are two very good reasons not to do this, firstly if one acts upon such feelings it usually only furthers the ills we seek to end, secondly feeling bitterness and hatred is very unpleasant! It seems to be where you were at when writing your last post.

                        For those of us who wish to remain conscious, who have decided to leave the comfort of ignorance and triviality and set out into the harsh landscape of knowing in search of something better, if we are to succeed we have to develop a habit of mind, a mental training.
                        There are many different methods invented over the millennia their effectiveness depending on our individual make up. But they take mental discipline, careful preparation, and lots and lots of practice.
                        It is the same as Shaolin gongfu. It is precisely what all that training is for.
                        I have to admit although it was not my intention when i started studying taiji, i have either learned , absorbed or been inspired to figure out on my own, a lot of these habits by working with Shi De Cheng. He certainly has mastery of that skill.

                        Very important for me is realising the insignificance to the universe of the feelings i have at the same time as keeping a very clear sense of how dear they are to me.
                        I recognise your pain, i feel that kind of pain too, but i can’t attach any righteousness to it, i don’t believe in any external set of rules which says ”You must be good and kind.” i can’t blame anyone else for not wanting to feel this pain, not wanting to respond to it in the way i do. The result will be the same, one day the universe will end. So i don’t feel bitterness or hatred, it is a choice each individual makes according to their own situation, all i can say is that it works for me, i have an ever deepening and robust sense of happiness as i learn.

                        Time and power are unlikely to make me into a Martin Luther King, the only difference i can plan on making is the way i feel within myself. If i aspire, like King to rise to the occasion, all those tiny every day occasions. If i can develop the habit of mind that makes me always respond to the people i meet with kindness and consideration and a smile, they most frequently respond in the same way, and in turn they often are kind to the next person they meet and little by little through many millions of tiny conscious acts each one falling on another maybe the tide will turn, maybe it won’t, but i will feel at peace with myself and warmth towards even the most unpleasant of people. This is not a state of naive illusion, it is not shattered by those who return my kindness with hatred, this is a highly conscious state arrived at by long hard work.

                        Splinter keep going, train your mind to always return to a positive view. There are every day millions upon millions of kind generous acts, the ones which hold the tide of society where it is, it could be better, but it could also be worse, a lot worse. Remember also that deciding not to go to war just doesn’t sell newspapers.

                        The Buddhists have a thing called taking refuge in Sanga. It means a community, a community of people who are also trying. Here is a tiny Sanga, you and me in the rubber room, both trying. I wish you happiness.


                        • #42
                          Good post Sarah. I read it all.

                          Oh, and by the way, it's all about lust.

                          Just wanted to make sure Splinter understood that.
                          Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                          "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                          (more comments in my User Profile)


                          • #43
                            Song of Lust

                            Doc have you got one of those automating programes that triggers evrytime i post.

                            "Good post Sarah. I read it all.

                            Oh, and by the way, it's all about lust."

                            It's like writing a song. I write the verse, you the chorus.

                            "Oh it's all about lust da da da di!
                            Yeh it's all about lust oh woh yeh yeh!"

                            So will you write the last verse? Tell us about lust? Who is the subject of your lust .... this month?


                            • #44

                              I'll never tell...
                              Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

                              "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

                              (more comments in my User Profile)


                              • #45
                                Baby don't hurt me....

                                Don't hurt me.....

                                No more.

                                Sorry i had to.

                                What is love? Conditional love is the attachment of all attachments. It can be a source of profound joy and profound suffering. Unconditional love is another thing entirely. It can be whatever you want it too be really. For millenia scholars and poets have sought to describe and define love, all in vain.

                                Like trying to explain the greatest sunset you ever saw to a blind person.

                                Love is the Fool's wisdom, and the wise man's folly
                                Show me a man who has forgotten words, so that I can have a word with him.


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