Understanding Radical Islam

[liutangsanzang]

I lived in Paris for nearly 20 years and there is no such violence as you would like to think. There are problems and violence but why do you say it is because of islam? America is one of the most violent places in the world and there is no islam. Violence comes form many reason, including the imequalities that capitalism create.

The Police goes everywhere. And is often the cause of violent behaviour because of their own violence. Remember the ROdney King incident?

Car burns yes and that is a sad thing.

Some sons of immigrants are not happy with the french government. But has not the french government supported many dictatures in Africa? Is your ally Saudi Arabia a model for human rights?

By the way, this is not Arab people that live in France. First, most of them are french. Second they come from Magrheb. They speak arabic and are not arabs.

I dont see your point Doc. You want to prove that Islam is source of evil? Some islamists are extremists and terrorists but it is a very very very tiny minority of the french muslims. Your discourse seems to come from the extreme right, not even the right side of french politics would claim that islam is a cause of problem in France.

You say their growth exceeds the french growth. Well what s the problem with that? You say they are not happy because they dont get benefits from social security. What do you think, they are lazy? Most of them work and pay their taxes. In my field of work they are often very good sellers.

You say France has a huge problem> Why think that? Please dont repeat the extreme right discourse. I would say it is a huge chance to mix cultures and know each other. Muslims in France are very moderate, we learn from them, they learn from us, it is a chance for both cultures. They are problems but it is a normal way of meeting in a couple.

Again you point out the problems of islam but do not mention the problems caused by capitalism, USA, Israel or France. Have an emptiness view.

Yes i m in China and watch CCTV.

[doc]

I'm actually not saying that Islam causes violence. I haven't gotten around to that diatribe yet.

When were you last in France?

[doc]

I lived in Paris for nearly 20 years and there is no such violence as you would like to think.

Here Liu. Sit down, chew on a carrot, and read these links:

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Nov28/0,4670,FranceViolence,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,250842,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,225358,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,174792,00.html

The first three talk about some of the recent riots in Paris, the last is a first hand report of the increasing size of "bad neighborhoods" there. Sorry it's all from Fox news; the more liberal MSNBC's search function is shit. I don't have a lot of time to spend on the obvious. There's quite a lot more to read about this; just do a search in any of the major news sites.

[liutangsanzang]

Dear friend,

well the fox news are quite fair. Now what is the cause of violence? Maybe they have seen to many american movies where violence is the key to solve problems? Remember Terminator or Matrix? The ideal of compassion!

But why do they insist to describe these people as muslims? Many youth coming from immigration are no more muslims than young french people are christians. Why dont they say they burned christian cars? Why label this guys muslims? Whom does it serve? These guys are french, why do you have to say they are muslims when most of them are not. I lived in front of a mosque and where there is a mosque the neighborhood is pretty calm. The youth that practice islam are known for being less violent than those who do not.

Also, why do you post this in the radical islam thread? Violence has many causes and in the french riots radical islam has little to do. Again most muslims were against violence.

You also point that europeans countries have a huge problem with muslim immigration. Why point out muslims again? Violence is a part of modern capitalist societies. In USA there are many blacks convicted for violence. Is it because they are blacks. Also you might not be aware it but a recent poll in european countries pointed that many europeans believed Israel is one of the major threat to world peace. Maybe because thanks to muslim presence in Europe we have a different sensitivity than USA do. And that is one reason why France refused to invade Irak and get involved to the present chaos. Again USA has brought chaos to the muslim world and how are you going to solve that?

Also you point out all the violence that there is in Islam. I tried to explain that curses going to the unbelievers is quite normal in a religion. And by unbelievers you should understand the sinners, those like USA who supported a dictature in Iran. In christian religion sinners are not promised to eternal hell? What is the difference with islam? Do the Israelian do not kill 3 palestinians for 1 israelian killed? In recent years, they have killed more palestinians than the palestinian terrorists have killed israelians. It is not even an eye to an eye, it is worse, so why say islam is unmerciful when jewish show less mercy.

Why not see that the Koran blames the killing of an innocent? That every surat begins with Allah the merciful?

Frankly, islam is not my cup of tea, i tried two time to read the Kuran and i must say that i dont feel the deep compassion i find in buddhism. But the muslims i know are quite balanced people and in France you will hardly find pro talibans or pro Bin Laden. But you will also find few pro israelians. And this point of view influences the majority of french people and even europeans. That s where one difference with the USA appears. And i dont even talk about the Basque feeling about it!

Peace and love and understanding

[doc]

That every surat begins with Allah the merciful?

Who is Allah supposed to be merciful to? Apparently, to the believers.

A lot of these "French youth" who are rioting are from Frances' previous colonial conquests, which, if you remember your history, tended to be from Africa (Algiers, etc). Predominanlty Arabic nations. In the eighties I think (Chirac?), the door was opened to these "poor people"; "come to France and we'll take care of you" sort of mentality. Well, they did. They came, they jumped onto the social network that France is famous for, and over the years, they propagated. Faster than the native French.

Now, France has a problem. An ever growing base of uneducated and unemployed poor, derived largely from that immigrant group of twenty years ago. A group which tends to be Arabic by origin, and a group which expects, and demands, increasing social care.

You see, in China, you have a similar group of "uneducated unemployed poor". But the Chinese are a different people by tradition, nature, and custom.

They can work hard. And they do. To survive.

Not all peoples are like that.

[Iron Cross]

Have you read Ayan Hirsi Ali's Book Infdel doc? She actually really goes into depth of this problem in it. Good book I thought.

[doc]

No, I'll look for it. I've been reading some things about this. A lot of my observations comes from living here in Thailand. It has most definitely put things into perspective.

[liutangsanzang]

The Koran teaches that if one has done you bad, you should do him good. So Allah is merciful to the sinners.

I ll answer what you say about magrheb and african immigration in france, but i dont see the relation with radical islam.
Most of workers came in the 50s and 60s when economy was strong and capitalists needed cheap labour force, not because of charity. With the economical crisis of the 70s the doors were dramatically shut.

U say immigrants propagated faster than native french. Well the birth rate might be a little higher but they dont have families of 10. They are not invading France, french capitalists made them come and they have kids, what is the problem with that? And my friends families are not so big, it is very much like any french familly. Children cost money and these guys are not rich.

You say they are uneducated and unemployed. Why do you believe so? In France universities are nearly free and many make studies. You tend to say they dont want to work. Why do you believe so? Their parents worked hard for the capitalists benefits and they also work. Do you think you can live in France without working? Only the heirs of richmen can do so. The unemployment rate of the sons of immigrants is certainly very similar to the native french's one.

It is funny that even the french right wing, conservatives, would not hold such views as you advocate. Where does it come from?

And why not go back to the topic that is understanding radical islam. I ve pointed that one of its cause is western and israelian violence. Why not comment on this mechanism?

[doc]

It is funny that even the french right wing, conservatives, would not hold such views as you advocate. Where does it come from?

It comes from reading news articles over the years, as these riots have occurred. And also from talking to French people who have left France for various reasons and have moved to Thailand.

And, no offense, but the French, right wing or otherwise, are not known for "taking a stance". Just look at recent historical events such as Kuwait, Iraq, Vietnam and WWII.

[liutangsanzang]

There is no offence, as i dont consider myself nationalist; basque or french. I am a citizen of the universe, just like monkeys and i dont own any land or tree. Nationalism often seems to me as a super ego, very childish. I can never understand why people are happy when one s country wins some sport and unhappy when they loose.

But this thread is not for speaking french right wing politics and its relation with the colonization of Viet Nam and the war crimes the USA has made there by killing so many civilians.

Xing Heng, i understand your fear of radical islam. I also quite strongly disagree with muslim fanatism and terrorism. But this must not be used as a political tool for some national interests or making more money to the military industry.
1 Islam is not radical islam. Many countries that have islamic parties in power are not extremists. Take Turkey or even Pakistan. And in many countries muslims are in majority not fundamentalists.

2 So what are the causes for radical islam. Very often they are the mirror of a state s violence, like in Algeria. The same happened in Tchetchenia where russian army s violence fueled terrorism.

3 How to make radical islam disappear. The palestinian tragedy shows that state violence makes it stronger. This is the same scenario we are facing in Afghanistan. In Europe if you are a terrorist, then you have the right for a defence, a trial and will not be killed. So why kill Talibans without trials? And in the process we also kill civilians. This fuels more hatred and make Talibans stronger. I believe Gandhi would more try to use dialogue. What we need is building the country, helping women, creating schools. How can we hope to solve the problem by killing every Taliban?

4 Whom does radical islam serve. A fraction of politicians need violence and ennemies in order to exist and have their securitarian views voted.

Peace and love

[liutangsanzang]

I read a french newspaper article where it is quoted that Mr Bush said in Israel: " Some think we have to negotiate with terrorists and extremist, like if wise talks could make them think they are wrong. We have heard this kind of mad illusions before", comparing the dialogue with the terrorists to the negotiations with Hitler before WW2.

This arise many questions in me

1 Why does Mr Bush talk with the Israelian state, that is kind of terrorist state killing civilians and children?
2 Why did the USA talked with themselves while they supported dictators like Saddam Hussein during the Irak/Iran war or Pinochet in Chile?
3 What is the value of dialogue and gandhian non violence?
4 What are you going to do in Afghanistan and Irak if you dont talk with your enemies? Are you going to kill all the Talibans believing you are doing the right thing? Why always think you are right and the other is wrong? You will never kill all the Talibans. Why always think force is going to solve problems? It is not a movie!
5 When Israel is going to stop fueling islamist terrorism by using violence and refusing to abide to UN's resolutions? When will they learn to talk instead of killing?

I see Obama also says he is not in favor of talking with terrorists. So will he talk with Israelians or Russians? It seems USA is really having a hard line. I utterly believe dialogue is the right way to change things. That is what Gandhi has proven. Would the buddha use force or speech to change its enemies?

[blooming tianshi lotus]

firstly liutansanzang, in regard to your pm, and no i'm not returning it privately, yes, I love you. Blooming tianshi lotus loves evvveryone everywhere through the entire immortal cycle. and yes. sometimes I serve criticism to demonstrate that, although more likely what it is is offering my understanding to bounce something off of for consideration where I feel appropriate. I dont always bother though. sometimes criticism isn't eeeven criticism. it's an offering of another view. criticism implies that ppl should change. I dont care if you change. I can still love and be mindful of the dilemma of the ppl who wont.

So, my question to you then is howww in the scheme of nelly's grape farm can you continue to criticise and vehmently blame this or that group / country or person as an act of criticism and believe yourrsellf non-violent and compassionate as the bodhisattva you claim t worship and try to emenate??

Iii think thaat is violent through no fault of your own but ignorance and lack of moral principal, and that that results in views nOt for the benefit of all...except that ppl be free to be ignorams as they are in their hearts so they may receive their spanking and learn a principal, or somewhere down the karmic cycle someone ELse will as a result of it . parinirvana just works like that.

you proactively saught it, so, hi. I'm blooming tianshi lotus, and I aam awake through too much exposure to the exaact same bigotry.
I can love bigots. see that is compassion. .


Blooming tianshi lotus.

[onesp1ng]

4 What are you going to do in Afghanistan and Irak if you dont talk with your enemies? Are you going to kill all the Talibans believing you are doing the right thing? Why always think you are right and the other is wrong? You will never kill all the Talibans. Why always think force is going to solve problems? It is not a movie!

who are you talking about when you say "you?"

[doc]

Properly applied force usually solves the problems. Just look at all the wars of the past two thousand years.

It's the reason why we go to war. To solve the problems that "talking" doesn't solve.

[doc]

Here's one reason for the problems:

KUALA LUMPUR, Malaysia: A Malaysian with three wives and 18 children has asked an Islamic court to let him marry again — with the blessing of all his spouses.

Mohamed Nor Awang, aged 51, filed a petition to take another wife in the Shariah High Court in eastern Terengganu state, a court employee said Friday.

His three wives told the court Thursday they support Mohamed Nor's decision, the court worker said on condition of anonymity, citing protocol.

Mohamed Nor's first wife, Wan Rukiah Mat Yusof, aged 52, was quoted by The Star newspaper saying he could "go ahead, I have no problems."

"We all could live blissfully under one roof," his third wife, 40-year-old Noraini Daud, was reported as saying by The Star.

Judge Sheikh Ahmad Ismail Hakim told Mohamed Nor to return to court Sunday with bank account statements to show he can financially support another spouse, the court worker said. He is also expected to bring his prospective fourth wife, who is 35 years old.

Mohamed Nor informed the court he is a menial worker who earns about 1,500 ringgit (US$460; €300) a month, according to the court employee.

The Shariah Court makes rulings on personal, family and religious issues for Muslims, who comprise nearly 60 percent of Malaysia's 27 million people.

Muslim men are permitted to take up to four wives in Malaysia if the Shariah court believes they can provide financial and emotional care for all their spouses and children. But it is uncommon for Malaysian men to take more than one or two wives.

Twenty three mouths to feed. And they don't live on carrots.