Virtues related to martial arts?

[jeffpeg]

This whole discussion is interesting, but I think we're ALL missing the point. YOU LOSE YOUR LIFE ENERGY EVERY TIME YOU EJACULATE!?! Man I'm gonna die soon!

Jeff

[wooden dummy]

*sigh* thanks... it just seems like no matter how many different ways I try to put things, it never really gets understood... and this is the only forum where I seem to have that problem lol

Yeah I know BL isn't really an idiot, I was just trying to say that I don't necessarily hang off of his every word. Anyway, cool Maestro, thx man. I saw somebody called "Maestro" on the Shaolinwolf.com boards, was that you?

Oh yeah btw regarding the naming 3 good ma books that talk about spiritual development...

1. The Art of Shaolin Kung Fu (Yeah I know it's by WKK but it's a good book)
2. The Tao of Jeet Kune Do
3. The Art of Harmony (at least I think that's what it's called... tbh I haven't actually read that one but there's more examples where that came from, that one just comes to mind.)

[doc]

Jeff,

Keep your hands out of your pants. You'll live longer.

And,

"OMG! If she likes the guy she's sleeping with she feels good. If she doesn't she feels lousy. Shen? In tune with an emotional state?

Doesn't that depend upon how much money she's made?

Well, enough pearls of wisdom for me today. Off to fix the chat room.

doc
with an overabundance of jing, qi, and all sorts of other stuff.

[Maestro]

yep

yes..im maestro1700 at shaolinwolf

[juszczec]

Originally posted by wooden dummy
Look, it's not as if I just made this stuff up to piss you off. This is all common knowledge

No, its not. Its commonly accepted myth, legend and misinformation.

accepted by a hell of a lot more people than you seem to realise, or are willing to admit.

I'm willing to admit lots of people believe all or part of this stuff. This still doesn't make it true.

I really couldn't care less whether you believe any of it or not, or even whether some of it is true- the point is, MY stuff makes sense to me, and it works perfectly.

You do alot of typing for not caring. Personally, I think you've got a problem with the fact that I've stepped all over some commonly taught and held beliefs.

It sounds as though you say you don't care about the truth as long as the lies make you happy. If so, this is delusional.

Yeah, and while we're at it I'll go tell mummy on you, and then you'll have to sit in the corner until you're vewwy vewwy sowwy.

I don't have a photographic memory. If I got some of the facts about the Hagakure (or anything else) wrong, then I'm willing to admit it publicly.

Are you?

Who's arguing?

I am. Here's why. Wrapping spirituality around MA training does alot of things I disagree with:

It makes the student chase multiple goals. Focus on the ones not involved with being able to use the physical techniques and you run the risk of having "perfect character" and not being able to use the techniques you've studied. All the while, wrapped in a false sense of security.

It makes the student think MA training is somehow special. It is not. Training provides no more or less chances for spiritual development than mowing the lawn, fixing your car, coaching a kids soccer team, going to college, living life and thinking about your actions or any other activity you can think of.

Some of the spiritual goals run completely counter to survival when you are attacked. I've read numerous people state that the monks will stop short of injuring/maiming/killing someone when attacked. Unless you can develop the same kind of skill as someone who trains and has few to no other responsibilities, forget about this. Learn your local laws and do whatever it takes to survive.

Any spiritual benefits from MA training are a side benefit. There are many more direct ways to improve yourself spiritually. Saying MA is a vehicle for spiritual improvement puts the cart before the horse, IMO.

I was just saying that with juszcec's original post he was basically talking as if he was trying to tell this guy "NO it's not in ANY WAY possible for MA training to help you out with the rest of your life outside of MA"

No I didn't. I said "Don't get me wrong, I think studying methods of fighting can lead to self improvement as well increased fitness and other health benefits. But that's best case. "

The stuff about meditation and the car mechanic was to show that just going through the motions of something doesn't mean that it's going to get you where you want to go, ie. while MA training isn't DEFINITELY going to get you anywhere spiritually, if you use it to its fullest potential then it certainly will.

I think MA training taken to its fullest potential is about learning MA techniques, principles, tactics and strategy and being able to use them correctly, in any situation, and then maintaining that skill. I think that's as far as it goes. Just like fixing a car is about fixing a car, MA training is about using MA. You may get some revelation from God, Allah or Buddha while you fix your car or hit your heavy bag or you may have some revelation about yourself as you do these (or any other) activities. Or you may not.

And Maestro, for the LAST TIME, YES I KNOW Bruce Lee's philosophy wasn't his own original ideas, but it's not as if I posted it to say "Ooh, BL's such a genius".. in fact he's an idiot, okay, but the point is he was talking about more or less exactly what I'm talking about, and I think it's put quite well there.

Bruce Lee thought outside the box and had some interesting ideas, captured lots of attention while becoming a pop culture icon and then did something that would cement himself in people's minds forever.

He died.

Just like Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Left Eye from TLC or Aaliyah.

And I don't think you got what I was saying about Max- the point is he wasn't in any way interested in ma, or personal development or anything of the sort, he just wanted to get into fights- and I don't think you can honestly disagree when I say he's not going to get anything out of MA training, because he's not trying to get anything out of it.

How do you know he didn't get exactly what he wanted out of it?

Anyway, he left ages ago- I used to beat him all the time

This reeks of ego. You have not yet transcended yourself. Your training is not complete grasshopper

The MONKS, I was talking about the MONKS.

I was too. Think about it. You're on the run from a government that will torture and execute you if you are found. What better place to hide than with a bunch of religious aesthetics?

Does anyone really, genuinely care?

I do. You do. If not, why are you wasting your time responding?

I only mentioned samurai once, as a reasonable, quick example of a group commonly thought to apply personal virtues to every aspect of life- we don't need to make a history lesson out of it.

But its not reasonable because its no more true of them than any other group that had to adhere to a code of ideals. Everyone seems to forget these guys were allowed to run around Japan with razor sharp swords and kill people. That was their job, everything they did was to increase their ability to kill others or prevent themselves from being killed.

Why is it so hard to accept that any of this is true?

Because you are repeating myths and fables I've heard before as facts. They are not facts. They are not the truth. But don't take my word for it. Take a look at the people who founded some of the arts, the times they lived in and the things they did. Then come back and talk about spirituality.

And yeah, I'm aware that I probably sound as if I'm trying to be offensive toward juszcec... but that was never my intention.

You never seemed offensive to me.

All I said originally was "You have a limited view of MA"... which, based on juszcec's original post, is TRUE and I will stand by it.

And all I'm saying is you haven't questioned the answers enough, and would probably learn a great deal if you did.

Mark

[doc]

Bruce Lee thought outside the box and had some interesting ideas, captured lots of attention while becoming a pop culture icon and then did something that would cement himself in people's minds forever.

He died.

Just like Jim Morrison, Kurt Cobain, Left Eye from TLC or Aaliyah.

Not to get off the thread, which is a very good one, but this comment is hugely insightful. History is replete with people, and losers, and so on, who have become immortalized by an early death. Says something about our society...

Oh, interesting commentary on spirituality and the martial arts. Not sure what my thoughts are on all of this yet.

doc

[MenteReligieuse]

If you lose vital energy through ejaculation....and the girl swallows....is she stealing your life force?! ARE THOSE DAMN SUCCUBIS STEALING OUR LIFE FORCE?!

Ok, now more seriously, you only feel tired after sex because #1 it is a physical activity, #2 some gland in your brain releases some **** that makes you drowsy. Oh and semen is "recreated" (for a lack of a better english word) every 72 hours or so, so even if you lose your jing (jizz *chuckle*), it should come back soon enough no?

Anyway, I'm no doc and I'm not bald. Perhaps the real Doc can help us out with more scientifical facts about ejaculation! (hard to beleive this thread started about MA)


ps : Is it contradictory to have a life goal of achieving enlightment even thouh I cannot accept ethereal concepts such a qi or spirits (souls) and etc? Not saying martial artists cannot do increadible feats, it is just I am sure there is a rational explanation behind them other than being possessed by daemons or sucking out the vital energy around you.

[zachsan]

enlightenment as a secular process is definitely an admirable goal, and, in my opinion, a bit of healthy skepticism is the first step towards the realization of that goal.

and yes, we would love mick jagger right now if only he had died one of those times he OD'd. jeff buckley (the guy in my avatar pic) thought this was one of the more ridiculous aspects of the world of rock and roll. then, he died. oh well.

but please don't compare jim morrisson to left eye from TLC. it makes me get all upset and hulk-like.

[Swordless]

In all this talk of how evil famous martial artists of the past seem to be as absolute proof that martial arts don't make you a better person, I'm shocked that no one has brought up what seems, imho, to be fairly obvious.
What about TODAY? What about US? Does no one in this forum think that their practice of the martial arts has made THEM a better person? What about our teachers and the people that we train with? Sure, ***holes abound, but there are plenty of great martial artists who are anything but, and who attribute a part of their own happiness to the martial arts.

[zachsan]

well, i'm certainly an asshole. but i agree that many people on this forum are probably good people, and i'm willing to bet that those people think that martial arts have made them happier and such. but since the question at issue is, "do martial arts make you a better person", to find an answer we have to look outside this miniscule community and examine the world of martial arts at large.

[zachsan]

and for the record, now that i've gone back and read the rest of this thread (god only knows how i missed it), i have to say that i agree with just about everything juszczec said.

in the words of the great and seminal punk band Television: "prove it."

i especially loved the "that's why you see unhealthy-looking whores" bit... LMAO....

[daodejing]

"Do martial arts make you a better person?"

**** no. YOU make yourself a better person. Juszcec (or however that's spelled) I could not agree more with you that one can acheive just as much spiritual cultivation from gardening and coaching teeball as you can get from a gongfu class. The difference is that in some gongfu classes, they are more upfront about the spirituality and trying to help the students grasp it, than they are in most gardening or pottery classes.

However, one is just as able to realize nirvana through a lifetime of mindful gardening as through a lifetime of mindful MA practice. The point is that you're engaging in a mindful practice.

But, some people need to go to a spiritually inclined martial arts teacher to learn how to practice mindfully.

So there, it's been said. You are the only person that can change your life.

[zachsan]

Originally posted by daodejing
But, some people need to go to a spiritually inclined martial arts teacher to learn how to practice mindfully.

well, what exactly do you mean by "mindful"? and yes, i know that you could write books about that if you had the time, but please don't.

assuming that you mean that in mindful practice one is reflecting on their activity and relating the lessons found therein to everyday life, then why would someone need to go to a martial arts class in order for someone to inform them of this principle? or i guess what i'm really asking is, wouldn't they do better just to read a book or two by krishnamurti?

technique is best relayed through personal, hands-on instruction; philosophy is best relayed through speech (or, better yet, writing). i know you're going to tell me that this is a duality that i'm inventing in my mind, but i'm speaking in the practical sense here. i don't think that a lifetime of punching a wooden post is going to give someone an understanding of nietzche.

then again, it might make them go insane and kill themselves, which some would consider to be similar.

[daodejing]

If you can read alot of books you can understand the theory of the training, but in order to actually train, one needs to combine the theory and the practice.

In reference to the question do you really need to learn this from a MA class, couldn't you just read a book or two by krishnamurti? No, however, you could learn it from taking a class with krishnamurti.

The whole buddhist concept of mindfullness is a terribly translated word. We could contrast it against the concept of mindlessness, and build ourselves a dichotomy, but the whole notion of mindlessness is where one's body is overrun by an uncontrollable mind. For me, the idea of mindfullness means to let your mind fill your body. To focus on your entire being all at once, and not be walking around focusing on your thoughts.

Hope that helps. I've got to run back to class now and get my legs palpated and stickered. Good ol' point location practicals........

[zachsan]

Originally posted by daodejing
In reference to the question do you really need to learn this from a MA class, couldn't you just read a book or two by krishnamurti? No, however, you could learn it from taking a class with krishnamurti.

well then, it seems like you're saying we can only attain this state by being in the presence of and/or conversing with others who have already attained it, and not through any amount of our own philosophical research, or introspection. that doesn't seem to be a very buddhist concept...

but that aside, ok, let's say you can learn it from taking a class with krishnamurti. let's say you have a friend who has a reputation for being hotheaded and has an ongoing and unquenchable need to prove himself (read: the youth of america). you want to turn him into a better person (back to the supposed topic of the thread). do you recommend martial arts training, which may or may not actually improve his character, but which could give him the capacity for much more violence; or, do you recommend a class with a krishnamurti-type, which may or may not improve his character, but, should it fail, only runs the risk of wasting his time?

i think this question is central to the debate, because the risks of teaching martial arts to an irresponsible person - and you must agree that that happens all the time - are never emphasized as much as the possible benefits to one's character. we've all seen signs in front of karate schools that say "improve your child's self-discipline, respect and confidence". how many signs have we seen that say "we hope to improve your child's self-discipline, respect and confidence, but there's a slight chance we'll only give him the tools he'll need in his future career as a homicidal maniac!"