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  • #46
    Originally posted by LFJ View Post
    thats why i started the sh!t in the first place, because i was hunting for the answer. i had been everywhere else trying to defend the shaolin tradition in other buddhist circles that made uneducated judgements on them. but i got stuck with a question that i couldnt answer with any buddhist tradition. because shaolin is unique.

    there's a lot of controversy in shaolin. i wanted to get to the answer regarding this issue. so i asked people who may have a clue and aggressively challenged the apparent bs until i found an answer. and i'm glad i did, because it helps in taking a major part of the negative impression off of the shaolin tradition, when its explained.

    but after the answer was found, some people (doc) still wanted to press the controversy. thats what much of russbo had become back then. probably jaded from his recent experience with a wushu kid he thought he could trust after decheng told him not to. no duh it would turn out the way it did, and that doc knows more about buddhism than xw.

    but whatever the reason, the controversy was pushed not for the sake of learning and getting the real answers out to inform all the rest of the buddhist world and world in general who had negative opinions on shaolin, but just for the sake of controversy itself.

    its especially apparent, when the issue was resolved and it should be no ones business to criticize, that when the controversy is continued, its not in good intention, but just for the sake of stirring sh!t up.

    that's where I find you young, LFJ. you seem to have a knack of arriving at a negative perspective, which is the sole fuel for dissent and violence and so forth. it's just very very cool however that certain ppl can be trusted to receive and process that crap, by natural order of things or otherwise.
    Imo that is theee very most endearing and redeming contribution that dharma and dharma spokes ppl do offer life. Who you're busy being of that young dumb and full of cum and raging thoughts, feelings and hormones looking for balance, definately has a role and respresents what it does, but, if that's what you're being, then okay, it is what it is. It's my favourite pain in ass of a cause and temperance force though, if that helps any.

    end of the day, you're an annoying little sh*thead needing a calming parental breast to cry into while you let it all out, and I appreciate it, but if you spend your time being a particular curse of life, then that is what you lived as and represented karmically. So, Amituofo to the 4 corners and families.

    I dont do violence LFJ, so the more insistant others come at me like that, the more I need to reach for to balance it. that iis the dynamic through the kungfu paths between branches and what makes the cycle what it is. there is no right or wrong one or place to be in any of it, though.

    I said no violence though, and I also said that it's all okay, and it's dharma and my very own personal prajna that has reason why. I'm confident that as race of life we can adequately support the world and whomever through whatever needs to be gone through or whatever issue they think they have without having to the hit button or go into mass universal hysteria because noone has an answer. at very least we stay calm with it until time does it's thing on it or a solution is revealed.

    why do I feel like I may aswell be comfort patting my daughter on the bum until we get to the bottom of whatever 's up ? we dont smack, but we do talk your head off or hug until issues and acknowledgement are satisfied. bad behaviour is alllways like that to me. I did say I get brahmin tenet, and buddha talks about it too.

    'gods be honest' kind of takes on a new heart at the point.

    doubt either way is good though, and thaat is what I meant when I said I believe it's enough. ppl doo reason..and as a matter of nature.
    if ppl can sincerely work with that, thaat is the natural order of change. that's why honesty is good, I guess. i think it saves my life.

    Anyway, Doc has always, as long as I've 'known' him, been open about that he promotes education through contraversy or otherwise. ..even just by giving it somewhere to unfold. I dont not think the basal issue isn't still current. self and emptiness thereof as a factor of evolution toward parinirvana through coming to grips with broader survival parameters and so on, freindship aside, thaat is what's really going on. that will always be what's going on.

    oh, and while I'm at it.. I'm not exactly dissappointed that dilberation and statement didn't come from Shi Yan ming, neither.
    Juust to be clear.



    Anyway, amituofo everybody and god bless, hang in there and so on and forth.

    Blooming tianshi lotus.
    Last edited by blooming tianshi lotus; 05-10-2008, 03:07 AM.

    Comment


    • #47
      btl, you dont understand a word anyone says.

      just stop talking.

      Comment


      • #48
        what are you telling me? that you're just misunderstood?

        do you get the concept in chan of ' prajna and the enlightenment of 'the young forrest'?

        .. there there bubba. .

        I told you wang yu ming said ' time will tell everything'.

        know you heard that.

        Blooming tianshi lotus.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by LFJ View Post
          thats why i started the sh!t in the first place, because i was hunting for the answer. i had been everywhere else trying to defend the shaolin tradition in other buddhist circles that made uneducated judgements on them. but i got stuck with a question that i couldnt answer with any buddhist tradition. because shaolin is unique.

          there's a lot of controversy in shaolin. i wanted to get to the answer regarding this issue. so i asked people who may have a clue and aggressively challenged the apparent bs until i found an answer. and i'm glad i did, because it helps in taking a major part of the negative impression off of the shaolin tradition, when its explained.

          but after the answer was found, some people (doc) still wanted to press the controversy. thats what much of russbo had become back then. probably jaded from his recent experience with a wushu kid he thought he could trust after decheng told him not to. no duh it would turn out the way it did, and that doc knows more about buddhism than xw.

          but whatever the reason, the controversy was pushed not for the sake of learning and getting the real answers out to inform all the rest of the buddhist world and world in general who had negative opinions on shaolin, but just for the sake of controversy itself.

          its especially apparent, when the issue was resolved and it should be no ones business to criticize, that when the controversy is continued, its not in good intention, but just for the sake of stirring sh!t up.
          I'm happy that you did, LFJ. As someone who was a chaste monk, who did not eat meat, or drink alcohol I could not understand why some Shaolin monks would be allowed to do certain things when other monks from Shaolin advocated traditional Mahayana beliefs.
          "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

          "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

          "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Fa Hui View Post
            I'm happy that you did, LFJ. As someone who was a chaste monk, who did not eat meat, or drink alcohol I could not understand why some Shaolin monks would be allowed to do certain things when other monks from Shaolin advocated traditional Mahayana beliefs.
            When you live in other countries that have Buddhist monks, such as in Thailand, Burma, Tibet, Vietnam, etc, you start to realize that a large majority of these Shaolin guys are far from it.

            Especially the ones that have advertised themselves the most.

            It's a joke. See them for what they are. Derive from them as they are. But I find it sad when people make them what they are not.
            Experienced Community organizer. Yeah, let's choose him to run the free world. It will be historic. What could possibly go wrong...

            "You're just a jaded cynical mother****er...." Jeffpeg

            (more comments in my User Profile)
            russbo.com


            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Fa Hui View Post
              I'm happy that you did, LFJ. As someone who was a chaste monk, who did not eat meat, or drink alcohol I could not understand why some Shaolin monks would be allowed to do certain things when other monks from Shaolin advocated traditional Mahayana beliefs.

              Firstly, if it's no one's business to criticise, then why would LFJ want to ask you Doc, a disciple for fuel to do that with, and then proceed to do that??

              Also, I wonder how many ppl here acknowledge that shi yan ming is fully indocrinated??..??as a mahayana chan buddhist monk at that??

              It 's funny, you know. the minute someone does something that someone else doesn't understand for whatever reason that is,( cough cough * missed the dharma * cough..,) all of a sudden they are an apparently self proclaimed 'better' enlightened dharma expert and are in a position to say what is enlightened behaviour and not??

              As usual, I dont expect that speaking out will make me so immediately popular, but, reeally. do ppl even understand the moment they dont also have a positive take on things, even additionally to the whinge about the shitheads otherwise, that that perspective could probably use a peace principal behind it or miight be slightly of the ego side of maturity?? even at termination of interaction. ie " X is a sh*t head/ theif / whore / violent ****a of an ass etc, buuut, their avatar just is what it is and I dont need to be so emotionally invested in needing to approve ", and just take the notes on that avatar and be on one's own merry way, taking the spanking for expecting in the first place. how to find a dissappointment to get pissed off at??
              banking on someone else is like ..going to the casino. I only ever either gamble what I have already made good with having lost, orr I do that and consider it entertainment. except, I dont really gamble at all anymore.



              Do we all realise btw that in buddhist tenet, mahayana at that, maybe in the vinaya, it's outlined where an invitation is and isn't an invitation and parameters for moving on from relationships as one grows and a partner is found to be what I see as tapping for nirvana in lieu of going further, and letting them go therefore negates the acceptance or invitation as ever having been legitimate and is explained as compassionate??

              Good news for some ppl.

              I really am asking about shi yan ming as a fully ordained monk though.

              Blooming tianshi lotus.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                Firstly, if it's no one's business to criticise, then why would LFJ want to ask you Doc, a disciple for fuel to do that with, and then proceed to do that??
                actually, because at that time, when everyone was taking shaolin warrior monks to be fully ordained bhikshus it certainly was something to criticise.

                but i didnt want to believe that so i asked many people who i thought would be in the know, not only doc. i asked some shaolin monks, in fact it was another shaolin monk that gave me the full details on their level of precept and who can have what sort of disciples and all.

                it wasnt until after the fact of discovering the warrior monk's level of precept that i said it was no one's business to criticise. because their level of precept is secular.

                but nice try criticising me though.

                Also, I wonder how many ppl here acknowledge that shi yan ming is fully indocrinated??..??as a mahayana chan buddhist monk at that??
                he's not.

                he's a warrior monk. i spoke to him in person. "wuseng" was the term he used on himself.

                and even if he were fully ordained, that would mean he would have taken the bodhisattva precepts abstaining from meat and alcohol. which wouldnt necessarily have punishments on his monasticism. because taking the bodhisattva precepts make chinese monks and nuns "bodhisattva bhikshu/nis".

                what would make him fully ordained as a bhikshu would be taking the full pratimoksha precepts. chinese monks and nuns take both, though.

                but it is in the pratimoksha precepts where celibacy becomes an issue. its a transgression punishable by immediate excommunication from the monastic sangha. it doesnt even require a meeting or anything. just as soon as the deed is done, the monk gives up his robe. automatic expulsion.

                they can still wear the robes and play monk, but having taken the pratimoksha precepts required for full ordination, breaking the precept of celibacy results in automatic expulsion, its over. and they can never ordain again in this lifetime.

                thats in fact rule number one.

                but shi yanming has not taken any of those precepts. hence he can eat meat, drink special water, and have babies without being expelled. because he's a warrior monk and the level of a warrior monks precepts do not go beyond 5-10 lay precepts.

                shi yanming is not a fully ordained bhikshu. if he was, he would be automatically expelled anyway.

                Comment


                • #53
                  good news for you btl,

                  this is likely my last post for a couple months. i have some business to take care of in dengfeng.

                  so its open season for taking shots on me. i cant respond and defend. but for some reason, i dont believe i'll need too....

                  peace!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Hmm. that's interesting. I dont really remember anything at all I've read questioning it execpt to see stated in a kungfumagazine.com article that he was fully ordained. and now he 's an abbot and yet has never been fully ordained?

                    What about Shi De Yang, LFJ? Do you think Shi De Yang is fully ordained?

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      the point is, even if at some point he was fully ordained, he would not be anymore. you cant break the vow of celibacy and remain in the monastic sangha. simple. its not even something that needs a group meeting to decide the punishment. no one needs to say or do anything to make it an "official" expulsion. its automatic. you break the celibacy vow and you're no longer a bhikshu, immediately excommunicated and can never re-ordain in this lifetime.

                      however, having met and spoken to shi yanming myself, he used the term "wuseng" on himself and his actions and lifestyle are completely acceptable by secular standards, not something that can be criticised from a monastic point of view at least.

                      the case wouldnt be so if he were fully ordained. he simply wouldnt be anymore. but yes, he is the abbot of usa shaolin temple. shaolin is unique and apparently thats a possibility for warrior monks to lead a temple. they are after all monastics, in that they've lived a monastic life. its just that their precept level makes them secular. thats the uniqueness of the shaolin order of warrior monks. it only makes sense in shaolin.

                      as for shi deyang, its not a matter of what i think. but i've actually never asked him. he doesnt leave much reason to ask. but with shi yanming, he was the target of criticism for his actions and lifestyle that i encountered in other buddhist circles. i wanted to defend him and shaolin because i believed in the message. so, he was a good person to ask and find out about because he is very open about his choices.

                      however, i have seen a scroll hanging on the wall of shi deyang's room in the temple. it was apparently written as some form of praise to him for his contribution to shaolin gongfu, taking it to another level. in it the characters were written "deyang heshang", referring to him as a fully ordained bhikshu. but i believe it was written by some laity who usually assume all of the monastic type to be "heshang", without really knowing the intricacies in it all at shaolin. whereas the topic was something i was extremely determined to understand. mainly because i didnt like the fact that the tradition i chose was seemingly bogus.

                      perhaps its something i can ask him about. but when shi deyang talks about monks collectively in shaolin, the term he uses is "sengren" which is a generic term for a monk or nun even, meaning like "monastic people", "sangha members" or "members of the buddhist monastic order" but doesnt necessarily refer to their level of precept like heshang (wenseng) and wuseng. warrior monks are monastic, yet secular in their precepts. like secular-monastics. (again, an oxymoron that only makes sense in shaolin)

                      but anyhow, i believe that most of the elder generation monks- those returning from the cultural revolution, and subsequently their disciples- were never fully ordained due to the government outlawing religious practice and ordination. (or perhaps they just wanted to become warrior monks)

                      shi decheng's master, shi suyun, apparently had a son- shi deding. who is also the person shi decheng started training with in the early 80's for a few years before he himself took discipleship under shi suyun. now, if shi suyun were fully ordained, the case would have been the same for him as it would for shi yanming- automatic expulsion.

                      as far as eating meat, i think all of the elder monks have. including shi deyang. arhat has even mentioned that shi wanheng told a story of a time before shi yongxin became abbot that they used to eat meat on temple grounds. which is something i wouldnt agree with for simple respect to such a place. but apparently they even did that.

                      but, most of them never took the pratimoksha precepts, nor the bodhisattva precepts- both of which are required for full ordination in all chinese buddhism. hence them being permitted to carry on monasticism having families and such.

                      i'm not exactly sure about shi deyang however, because he and shi suxi seem most bhikshu-ish. hence never having to ask. but i know shi deyang has eaten meat. but again thats not something that will result in expulsion, because it comes from the bodhisattva precepts, not the pratimoksha. but at least, neither of them have children. so they wouldnt be expelled. whereas, a large number of the others would have been. and again, its not something that needs to be made "official", its just automatic expulsion. they would no longer be able to claim monkhood. however, due to the cultural reasons during their times, i suspect neither of them have taken full ordination either.

                      but it may be a good topic for discussion with him later. i think shi deyang would have taken full ordination if that was available to him- based on his personality and closeness with the temple. but i dont think it matters right now. whats important is that chan was transmitted to him from his master, as with all the other monks who studied with the elders. and now shi suxi and the others are pleased to see them all carry on and spread the teachings around the world.

                      but nowadays, shi yongxin has begun to take a more traditional buddhist approach to things having reinstated a lot of rules and practices and having fully ordained bhikshus join the shaolin order. which in a way is a good thing. but most of them came from pureland backgrounds or were educated through buddhist colleges, and really lack the experiential knowledge of chan that the elder monks taught. and at the same time, thats mixed with all the wushu kids who dont take any vows and even lack traditional gongfu knowledge.

                      kinda hurts the image more than the others ever did. because shi yanming and the others are justified in their choices and lifestyles based on their level of precept. its just misunderstood.

                      people just need to understand the uniqueness of shaolin and its recent history to clear that all up. but then you have the young guys who are kind of difficult to deal with. so, thats one thing with no way to clear up besides saying they are just not monks in any sense of the word.

                      but if they can draw in a crowd with their wushu skills, and present buddhism even in the pureland form, perhaps that will bring more to come and understand shaolin for themselvs. which isnt bad. in the very least, it puts food on their plates. henan is the poorest province. so i'd expect a lot of "smoke and mirrors" and cut-throat garbage to go on for survival. faking traditional gongfu and chan buddhism isnt half as bad as some of the stuff that goes on over there. like the hidden child labor camps they discover every once in a while, and all the horrors that go on there.

                      anyhow, the mixture of pureland monks with modern wushu kids to create the traditional shaolin "buddhist warrior monks" image has always been kind of interesting to me... funny. makeshift.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I dont really have time t your whole post because I have lectures today, but I did ask shi de yang via wang yu ming. the answer I got from shi de yang is that he a disciple. end of story. Ii asked because I was curious as to his stance on celibacy of dharmic understanding.

                        if shi yan ming is a SYX shaolin abbot out at USA ST, are you sure that he could do that on 5 precepts? and if he still considers himself to be within the confines of those tenets, and waas regardless of still being so or not, do you think he just drops the other 5 because they dont make sese anymore???

                        personally, I think they're all the same thing dharma being dharma full stop, and ppl just need little squares and boxes and so theyy created the precept perception.

                        I can see where not getting the dhrama would do that. semantics ! @).

                        Blooming tianshi lotus

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                          I dont really have time t your whole post because I have lectures today, but I did ask shi de yang via wang yu ming. the answer I got from shi de yang is that he a disciple. end of story. Ii asked because I was curious as to his stance on celibacy of dharmic understanding.

                          if shi yan ming is a SYX shaolin abbot out at USA ST, are you sure that he could do that on 5 precepts? and if he still considers himself to be within the confines of those tenets, and waas regardless of still being so or not, do you think he just drops the other 5 because they dont make sese anymore???

                          personally, I think they're all the same thing dharma being dharma full stop, and ppl just need little squares and boxes and so theyy created the precept perception.

                          I can see where not getting the dhrama would do that. semantics ! @).

                          Blooming tianshi lotus
                          I'm pretty sure you just talked yourself into a circle.
                          "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                          "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                          "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Now you're catching on. As long as someone or other sees it( the circle), and precepts ppl off their karmic disposition according to their individual dharmic angle, which is somewhere or other along the line what I believe happens, mostly at this stage with the 'de' generation, then it seems reasonable enough for boxes to be dealt, for the sake Of ppl who don't see the dharma otherwise. it's something like 'practice' terms to offer at least anyway. I'm sure buddha spoke about that. pick one , any one and you're probably representing some part or aspect or other.

                            You said you used to be a monk, right?

                            Dont get me wrong here, but do you mind saying where and under what branch you were indocrinated?




                            Blooming tianshi lotus

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                              Now you're catching on. As long as someone or other sees it( the circle), and precepts ppl off their karmic disposition according to their individual dharmic angle, which is somewhere or other along the line what I believe happens, mostly at this stage with the 'de' generation, then it seems reasonable enough for boxes to be dealt, for the sake Of ppl who don't see anything otherwise.
                              That's not exactly what I meant, but okay .

                              Originally posted by blooming tianshi lotus View Post
                              You said you used to be a monk, right?

                              Dont get me wrong here, but do you mind saying where and under what branch you were indocrinated?
                              Thich Nhat Hanh. I am no longer bound, although it wouldn't matter since I would have been excommunicated by now .
                              "For some reason I'm in a good mood today. I haven't left the house yet, though. "

                              "fa hui, you make buddhism sexy." -Zachsan

                              "Friends don't let friends do Taekwondo." -Nancy Reagan

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Funny. I might never have heard of the place if you hadn't been. .

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