The "doc hates Yanming's family" email

[onesp1ng]

thich nhat hanh is a well-known author who has written many books on buddhism. although i'm not buddhist myself, his words are generally very wholesome, clear, and sensible.

you might like to check out some of his materials, bl...

[doc]

One day Yanming's real history will come out. There are people who know it, De Ru, De Yang, Yong Xin, but they ain't talking.

and once it does, all of this discussion will end up being moot.

but it's fun to watch.

[LFJ]

but I did ask shi de yang via wang yu ming. the answer I got from shi de yang is that he a disciple. end of story.

actually, not "end of story". this is where the chinese language would come in handy for you.

you see, a "disciple" as in a "sujiadizi", that is a "secular disciple", is not monastic. whereas wenseng and wuseng are both monastic. just that the wuseng are secular-monastics based on their level of precept. but they live monastic lives. sujiadizi, secular disciples, do not live monastic lives. they are straight up laity who have simply taken the triple gem refuge and five lay precepts (sometimes bodhisattva precepts).

and being such they do not have the position to conduct discipleship ceremonies. wuseng, however, can have both wuseng and sujiadizi under them. shi deyang has both. but they cannot fully ordain wenseng (heshang/bhikshu) not being fully ordained themselves. only the fully ordained wenseng (heshang/bhikshu) can fully ordain others.

but back to shi deyang, if he were a sujiadizi, he would not have the position to take disciples of any type. having disciples shows that he is at least wuseng. and as far as i can deduce from given details about him and cultural history, he is most likely a wuseng.

also taking into account that he has referred to himself as a "sengren", a monastic sangha member. in english, the word "disciple" is not as clear. because he is a "disciple" of shi suxi, in that shi suxi is his master. but he is clearly not sujiadizi.

in chinese there is the difference between sujiadizi and chujiadizi. "chujia" denotes one who has "left home" and become monastic. one who is a secular disciple and has not left home to live a monastic life is a sujiadizi, and they cannot conduct ceremonies for other sujiadizi, much less wuseng or heshang.

on one of these threads here i've outlined the details i obtained on all the levels of ordination in shaolin and what group can ordain what level of disciple.

but clearly, shi deyang is not a sujiadizi, secular disciple. he has left home. as he has also referred to himself as a simple "chujiaren", one who has left home. and obviously, given that he has disciples under him, both sujiadizi and wuseng, he has to be monastic in order to do that. placing him at at least the level of wuseng himself.

if shi yan ming is a SYX shaolin abbot out at USA ST, are you sure that he could do that on 5 precepts? and if he still considers himself to be within the confines of those tenets, and waas regardless of still being so or not, do you think he just drops the other 5 because they dont make sese anymore???

you're looking at it the same way others do. taking shaolin tradition to be in line with traditional chinese mahayana buddhism and monastic structures. but shaolin is unique, given the wuseng order and all. apparently it is possible for shi yanming to found a temple and be the abbot having not taken full ordination. but its not like he's just a simple member of the laity, like sujiadizi. he is monastic and has lived a monastic life and is capable of running a temple. it is just that his precept level is secular and he cannot fully ordain bhikshus himself. only other wuseng or sujiadizi.

the other five precepts, including the sexual misconduct being upgraded to full celibacy, take effect when the given warrior monk is living within the temple compounds- such as shi deyang in shaolin. shi yanming, as far as i know, has a home separately from his temple. and he obviously doesnt observe the 10 precepts. so i wouldnt say he drops them. its just that he's not in a position where he has to observe them.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Doc, I think who ppl really turn out to have been is always there, no matter who it is. Maybe that's why I dont do 'groupy' and what the koran was implying regarding comment on idolators??

G, yeh. maybe I would. I see they've been hosting a buddhist education symposium in vietnam this week. that doesn't not interest me, neither. I'm also waiting on more news of the next shaolin one. I have heard there will be one.

I plan to do that whole pass all the way over at some stage, in blocks or otherwise, but you're right. I might save it until then, unless there's something in particular you're recommending me??


Blooming tianshi lotus.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

yeh. words can be funny like that. dharma is still dharma and principal is still principal though, isn't it.

evverything is smoke and mirrors. everything. and lucky too, because otherwise I'd just vomit. thank gOd for the concept.

Blooming tianshi lotus.

[doc]

Remember the Chinese concept of "smoke and mirrors".

Don't get sucked in as others have. Things are not always what they seem to be. It's not like in the movies....

LOL...

[LFJ]

One day Yanming's real history will come out. There are people who know it, De Ru, De Yang, Yong Xin, but they ain't talking.

and once it does, all of this discussion will end up being moot.

but it's fun to watch.

the only point being made in this thread about shi yanming is that he cannot be criticised from a monastic point of view, based on the level of his precepts. but perhaps from a moral standpoint as some already have. but he cannot be expelled for anything because he hasnt taken any precepts that would result in expulsion if broken, unless his master or maybe shi yongxin decided to take action. but they havent.

so thats my only point regarding him, and the rest of the warrior monks for that matter. they cant be held up to the standard of the fully ordained bhikshus throughout the rest of chinese buddhism and other monastic structures they are not a part of.
--------------------------

but anyhow, with regards to yanming's "real history", i dont know how far back you are referring. but just a few years ago shi deyang and he had a pretty close relationship. not sure how that is now, but i'm getting the feeling its not the same, from last time i spoke to deyang about yanming.

but anyhow, you apparently know about his "real history". why not just say it then? it cant be any worse than hinting about it.

thats my point about stirring up controversy here. its being played with like a game. if there's something to be said, say it. otherwise stop hinting about things and pushing the controversy. thats not anything worse than a lie if you keep hinting about things but never speak it so the person has a chance to defend. its just like "i know something that you dont know".

hinting toward negative things without saying it is kinda lame. its just making a bad impression of someone that cant be countered or defended. kinda cowardly.

if these other guys know something, and they're not talking, at least they arent talking about it- hinting around and casting a negative impression on people that cant be defended.

either its important enough to say, or its unimportant enough to be dropped. if "right speech" is not gossiping, then hinting about things is no better than actually saying it.

[doc]

but he cannot be expelled for anything because he hasnt taken any precepts that would result in expulsion if broken, unless his master or maybe shi yongxin decided to take action. but they havent.

To Yongxin, Yanming is a moot point. And to this day, we still haven't heard who Yanming's "master at shaolin" was.

As for disclosing his "real history", it's not my job. But I am entertained by all of the controversy. A lot of us are.

[LFJ]

To Yongxin, Yanming is a moot point. And to this day, we still haven't heard who Yanming's "master at shaolin" was.

not sure what is meant by this or who "we" referrs to.

33rd generation shi yongchen is yanming's chan master.

as i've heard, a lot of his gongfu training came from lay masters. but such has been the case for decheng, deyang, and the rest. and these lay masters can be named as well.

they didnt only learn from suxi and suyun. and even their masters zhenxu, back to henglin in the late 1800's to early 1900's all gained most of their martial arts knowledge from outside the monastic lines. no one denies that and its nothing that requires apologetics. its history.

so, i'm not quite sure what you're trying to say with this. all of yanming's masters are well-established as well as his time spent in shaolin.

[LFJ]

As for disclosing his "real history", it's not my job. But I am entertained by all of the controversy. A lot of us are.

then its not your job to hint about it and stir up controversy like that either.

fabricating garbage and stirring it up for entertainment... i dont get the point. i dont find that to be conducive to anything good, or in line with the path, precepts, and spirit of such a brotherhood.

[doc]

errs to.

33rd generation shi yongchen is yanming's chan master.

Comical. History rewrites itself again.

Speak to the older masters who have lived in the temple.

As I've been told by many of these guys, YM does not even have a master in Shaolin. Never did. His three sporadic episodes of spending limited time there yielded no master; his knowledge was acquired during his time at the Henan Wushu team.

[doc]

fabricating garbage and stirring it up for entertainment...

I don't fabricate for entertainment. Don't even think about accusing my sense of truthfulness or honor. You're attacking the wrong guy,

And I certainly don't fabricate to make a persona which has misled hundreds of people.

I'm above that. I don't have to live a lie.

Wake up man. Go to China and speak to the old masters, the ones that really lived in Shaolin, and get the truth for yourself. The ones from fifteen and twenty years ago. The ones that know. If they'll talk to you. It's not "Chinese" to disrupt someone else's "face", no matter how false it is.

[Maestro]

wow, isnt this some crazy stuff? more yan ming controversy..

i cant believe this is even going on but since doc is the most experienced and knowledgable person here about shaolin i would believe what he says to a point

like he said there really isnt much reason i can see for him to lie about anything regarding shaolin..

the way i see it, is the way ive always seen it doc is or was a really hard worker for shaolin, he probably put in way more work then any of these monks
to actually HELP shaolin..not himself or his school or whatever but shaolin and it looks like he hasnt really got much but alot of shit for it lolo

ah..but isnt that always the way..im almost 24 now..24 do u guys believe that shit..24 and the more i live the more i realise how ****ed shit can really get no matter how much u do the right thing

anyway, i think rich and lfj need to look at what they are doing and who they are talking to..who do u guys think u are seriously.

anyway, if anyone wants to atk me thats cool im used to it and maybe i can get some threads poppin like i used to..either way ill be reading these threads!


oh yea and shaolinwolf does suck, its sucked for a long time. and the wolf looks like a mental patient and he sucks at gung fu

[LFJ]

Wake up man. Go to China and speak to the old masters, the ones that really lived in Shaolin, and get the truth for yourself.

i'm in china right now. and as far as i know, you dont speak any chinese. so i seriously doubt the depth of your knowledge and the relationship you think you have with the old masters. in fact, i know it lacks depth, as you've displayed by this whole thread.

[LFJ]

since doc is the most experienced and knowledgable person here about shaolin i would believe what he says to a point

experience doesnt always equal knowledge- not when its in another country and in a foreign language.

all those years in china and doc still cant pronounce hello correctly in chinese. you seriously think he has such a deep knowledge and relationship in the tradition with people he has never been able to speak directly to in the same language, in their language?? seriously...

we might be able to say he has a lot of experience over in the shaolin area, but he doesnt really know as much as he'd like to think or would like to potray himself as knowing. like he has all these deep discussions with the real old masters of shaolin. dude cant even say hello in chinese, and they cant speak english.

experience, sure. but doc really doesnt know what he's talking about here. has he met master yongchen and asked him about master yanming himself? obviously not.