effect of directing the qi

[xing_jian108]

xing jian: naturally i agree with you. but i know zachsan wouldn't because he'll say that you can't prove it is the QI in the Qi Gong practitioners that is making them resist the pain, EVEN THOUGH only Qi Gong practitioners can resist the pain. am i correct zachsan?

Yes, we can prove there is "some reason" Qi Gong masters can resist more pain and damage than the normal person, which is making them more able to resist damage from attackers giving them a better chance to fight back and defend themselves. Exactly what Zachsan asked for.

But this response is now taking us back to proving whether Qi exists or not. Which is something Zachsan asked us not to try. Very strange excuses.

[Firbolg]

"Is that a disturbance in the qi or are you sat on a dildo?"


Sorry, couldn't help it.. carry on now..

Interesting thread anyway!

[arhat]

I was an assistant to Yan Ming on a few occassions when he has done his hard qigong demo, both times for the Discovery Channel and the BBC on a collabo effort- both time they engaged medical doctors conducting research on Pain and the human body's respone to noxious stimuli- using two different researchers conducting the same basic experiment.

He did a lot of breaking and he did the spear bending.

The spears are not razor sharp. If they were razor sharp, they would cut his skin and pierce him, and if they struck him with enough velocity he would be pierced. Which is why the Boxer rebellion failed.

That being said, I still consider it to be a rather impressive feat for a few reasons- primarily because the researchers could not find evidence of SYM feeling pain stimuli.

Secondly, because I tried the spear bending myself, and watched it very very closely. I noticed several differences in the way Yan Ming executes the exercise with other examples I have seen.

Placing one spear- Yan Ming uses either 2 or 3 spears, I could not hope to bend the spear. Placing my hand over the point it was still unbearable. SYM butts the spear against a foot, his seconds do not hold the spear- he says he does this because the 'trick' is that the second bends the spear by exerting downward pressure. His way it is all him, and it's all against his throat.

Thirdly, I noticed that when the sheet of rock or what have you is placed on his back, the force of the shattering blow proceeds through the rock- in the love edit on this site you can see he drops a further 4-5 inches or so from the impact- as opposed to a snapback hit where the force is dissipated by the strike.

In any case- just practicing qigong is not going to allow you to perform a feat of this nature- it requires a lot of conditioning.

The second part of their testing revolved around submerging an appendage in ice water after surgi-wrapping the blood out of the arm. They basically stopped their experiment after Yan Ming registered no response to the noxious stimuli.

The problem as I see it is that few masters will submit their abilities to rigourous testing, few masters have any skill, and they claim qigong as a panacea for all ills.

SYM will be the first person to say if you can hit him with something like a chi blast he will fall to his knees right there and call you "Sifu."

Qigong does not just cure cancer. Maybe as a grouped thing, if you practice qigong, or take a walk in the park every day, you will have better odds of living healthy and happy and long.

Light being a particle or wave is entirely different from trying to prove qi. You should look into the experiment a little more if you have such confusion about it.

[zachsan]

well you're gone for a weekend and you miss all this. what a shame. i would love to reply to everything, but i don't have the time. so a few points:

- with the exception of bending spears on the throat, i have seen martial arts masters who do not practice qigong perform every other feat that is supposed to be attainable only through practicing qigong, such as bending metal bars on their heads and breaking all manner of things.

my high school physics teacher walked barefoot on glass and laid down on a bed of nails and had things broken over his stomach. these are feats which people used to believe (and some still do) were only possible through the use of supernatural abilities.

- andrewer47 said "he'll say that you can't prove it is the QI in the Qi Gong practitioners that is making them resist the pain, EVEN THOUGH only Qi Gong practitioners can resist the pain". you are correct, andrew.

a magician makes a dove appear out of a seemingly empty hat. the explanation he provides for this is simply, "it's magic". and generally, no one but magicians demonstrate this seemingly incredible feat. therefore, according to your logic, the only rational explanation for this is that it really is magic.

the fact that uniquely magicians do this trick doesn't mean that only they can do this trick; and, more importantly, it doesn't mean that one should assume that it's "magic" just because other people don't generally do it. is it any wonder that magicians tend to be skeptics?

- occam's razor. asserting the existence of a life energy that changes the way that physical objects interact is essentially rewriting the laws of physics. the only reason to go with an explanation that turns existing knowledge on its ear is that there is no way that existing knowledge is sufficient to explain it. all of the feats that have been brought up in this thread, however, can be explained through natural means. most of them rationally point to a state of extreme mental and physical discipline rather than to the manipulation of a metaphysical energy. to me, that's impressive enough, without needing to bring the supernatural into the mix.

- finally, if one truly wanted to prove not only that they can perform unusual feats, but that these feats were useful in a real self-defense situation, their demonstrations would consist of problems which one might actually come across when defending themselves. for instance, as dogchow and arhat mentioned, having something thrust a sharpened spear into their neck, or having someone agressively swing at their head with a metal bar.

that about covers my stance on the issue, and again, i apologize that i can't respond to everything everyone wrote specifically.

[dogchow108]

Andrew-
Please refer to the following quotes:

"albeit it still does not physically provide evidence of qi but at least it is demonstratable and gives support of such notion"

"Qigong = Qi = no pain"

The first quote is sort of like saying "it does not provide evidence except it provides evidence"

The second quote, well, you guess...

Anyway, back to the dildo example. An invisible dildo is not a functional example here because you are claiming the dildo is invisible- at which point, you do not really know if it is a doldo until you see it.

damn, out of time, ill be back...

[mortal]

ZLP Told me hard-qi gung stunts are all done for show. The whole qi thing they do before the demo was posing.

Those metal bars are actually fragile. Especially hit at that angle.

Iron body is very real. Banging things off different body parts. I don't think that has anything to do with chi magic. You are just getting used to what that pain feels like until it doesn't bother you.

Qi=training the mind

To be tolerant. To except pain. To ignore pain.

[xing_jian108]

Interesting idea, mortal. But what about the feeling of Qi? And how do you get used to the pain of balancing your body over a giant metal spear into your stomach? Or a one finger handstand? Odd.....

Anyway, it is very much like trying to explain and show existence of color to a blind man. To them, they won't understand a word of it and nothing of it makes sense. They can keep saying we can't prove it to them. And it's true. We can't prove it to them. But to us, those who can see it, know it exists. It's very real, even though it can't be proven to the blind man. But you can only know what it really is and that it really exists once you see it. Like Qi. You must experience it and feel it. Then you will believe it. For those of you who have not felt it, you are like the blind man with the color problem. The difference is, you have the ability to experience it if you choose. A blind man is most likely blind forever. But if you choose not to believe it, that's fine. But stop worrying and arguing about it when the ways to experience it are right before you. Which you would lose nothing in trying, and gain, at the least, a healthier body.

[mortal]

Why are you always so obnoxious? I am far from blind my friend.

They are just tricks.

They balance on the spear because the tip is an inch by an inch square and they have hard stomachs.

I have never felt it. I don't beleive in it. If you want to prove it show me? If you demonstrate it on me and I feel it, I promise to bow down and support every debate about qi you have for the rest of time.

A one finger handstand is the result of extreme conditioning. Not qi magic.

For a master you of all people should know these things.

Lighting things on fire? You sound like a Wkk student.
Are you really antoniuos?

[xing_jian108]

I could slap a blind man in the face with a red sheet of paper. He's not going to understand or realize that it's red just from that. Similarly, if I kick you across the room you may say that's a very strong kick. But it shows no evidence of Qi.

Why do I say the things I do? Because I have felt the effects of Qi Gong training. I've done Iron Body without Qi Gong. And then I've done the same Iron Body excersize after directing Qi after Qi Gong practice. I could feel this thing we call "Qi", and the difference was, the first Iron Body excersize I felt the impact. After the Qi excersize I could feel the touch but not the impact. Like nothing happened.

You are correct about the short Qi excersize being for the show. But it is Qi Gong excersize that has allowed the monks to be able to perform such a thing in the first place. Why would they spend so many generations practicing something if no one has ever felt effects of Qi?

Qi Gong masters such as Shi Guo Lin, the Iron Arhat as they call him, have crazy Iron Body skills and he credits that to the practice of Yi Jin Jing, a Qi Gong excersize. Now why would he do that? And why would he even practice it if after so many years he hasn't felt a thing from it?

You haven't experienced it, like a blind man hasn't experienced color. So, you don't believe in it because it's impossible to explain or prove to you. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, like color exists even though a blind man can't understand the explaination and it can't be proven to him.

The difference between you and a blind man is like I said, you have the ability to experience this thing for yourself. You are choosing to be like this blind man because that's your choice. But don't argue about it if you won't even be up to test it out for yourself. You have nothing to say on this topic.

[dogchow108]

But you can only know what it really is and that it really exists once you see it. Like Qi. You must experience it and feel it. Then you will believe it.

evangelical QiGong...interesting

[zachsan]

it's not so surprising. debates on these kinds of things often last only as long as their adherents want them to. eventually, someone can simply state that you're blind if you don't subscribe to their way of seeing it, all reason aside, and well, that's that.

by the way, i'm god. you're blind if you don't see it.

[mortal]

Whenever I go to gung fu tourney's I always meet qi-gong nerds. They all have one thing in common. Their gung fu is laughable! Oh, and they are usually out of shape.

[xing_jian108]

it's not so surprising. debates on these kinds of things often last only as long as their adherents want them to. eventually, someone can simply state that you're blind if you don't subscribe to their way of seeing it, all reason aside, and well, that's that.

by the way, i'm god. you're blind if you don't see it.

Don't be an idiot, Zach. I didn't say that at all. I'm not just saying because you don't see it. I'm saying because you haven't tried to experience it. If you haven't experienced it, then you don't know about it and you can't talk on the subject. Same goes for anything. Not just Qi Gong. But any activity you have not experienced, you can't say anything about it or it's effects, cuz you don't know. You guys are talking about something you have never experienced. Where's the logic in that? It's retarded... Listen to the people who have experienced it. Like the Shao Lin monks for example. They've done it for generations. If there was nothing to experience, it wouldn't have lasted so long. Right, I'm gonna listen to the guy who has never experienced it and doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He must have something to share on the subject.

[zachsan]

and round and round we go.

Don't be an idiot, Zach.

i promise to try my best.

If you haven't experienced it, then you don't know about it and you can't talk on the subject.

ok. i believe you experienced something. what if many people have experienced the same thing, but have drawn different conclusions from it? what if you've experienced something, but you've made a logical error in assuming that it was due to a metaphysical energy? it is certainly an error of logic to do so, and clearly you aren't interested in having someone point that out to you.

Same goes for anything. Not just Qi Gong. But any activity you have not experienced, you can't say anything about it or it's effects, cuz you don't know. You guys are talking about something you have never experienced. Where's the logic in that? It's retarded...

the logic is right in front of you. you've made a logical error in assuming that your experiences were due to a metaphysical energy. logic is not exclusive to practitioners of gongfu; so i don't need to practice gongfu to tell you that you made a logical mistake.

if someone drives into a brick wall, you don't need to be a driver to tell them they made a mistake.

If there was nothing to experience, it wouldn't have lasted so long.

this is another completely unfounded assertion. there's no reason to believe that the endurance of an idea is reflective of its accuracy. people believed for quite a while that the earth was flat, and needless to say, that's false.

anyway, this conversation is at least interesting (if a bit repetitive), so please don't drive anyone away by getting all hot and bothered about it.

very truly yours,
your friendly neighborhood blind, retarded idiot

[dogchow108]

saying because you haven't tried to experience it. If you haven't experienced it, then you don't know about it and you can't talk on the subject.

You don't know that we havent tried it for ourselves- and you make the assumption that if we tried, we would agree with you. I know that your inlellect is more powerful than that, Xing.

Same goes for anything. Not just Qi Gong. But any activity you have not experienced, you can't say anything about it or it's effects, cuz you don't know. You guys are talking about something you have never experienced. Where's the logic in that? It's retarded...

When talking about the effects of Qigong, one need not experience the effects to make a judgement as to whether they are there. Qi, however, as an undefined component, cannot be factored in as something measureable. I dont get why it is that this seems so hard to understand, i thought this had been made clear and understood- even if QiGong has benefits that you can measure, you are still not in any way measuring Qi. what you "feel" is something you have told yourself or been told is Qi. until you have something more concrete than "i know it because i feel it and you dont because you've never tried" you can not establish the eqistence of Qi as a factor in QiGong.

And for the record, I practice QiGong.

Listen to the people who have experienced it. Like the Shao Lin monks for example. They've done it for generations. If there was nothing to experience, it wouldn't have lasted so long. Right, I'm gonna listen to the guy who has never experienced it and doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. He must have something to share on the subject.

Why should he just take a Shaolin monk's word for it? Most of the guys have a 5th grade education at best, and little to no knowlege about physiology beyond the tidbits they may have come across throughout their lifetimes. Of course a Shaolin Monk or a Taiji teacher is likely to tell you that there's Qi. so what? its still a case of "he said so".

Xing_Jian, I'm not ruling out the existance of Qi- what i am trying to tell you is that you cant say with any shred of evidence that it exists. I know that this discussion has moved to whether or not QiGong has measureable healing effects, but i feel that you and Andrew are using that as a front to push the idea of Qi as an established fact. until you can measure or test Qi, not measure or test the effects of an excercise that claims to be using Qi and in reality has very reasonable physiological explanations that are in fact testible moreso than Qi, it is still a belief.

I think it is worth pointing out again that even in those "NIH-recognized" (big whoop) articles, especially the one with the most weighty claim (the increase of t-lymphocytes) got cold feet when it came down to recommending it as therapy for cancer without something "conventional"; which i mentioned that i found sneaky and unethical. I've said this before and i feel that it is worth repeating:

i'll believe in something like Qi when Eastern ideas start pulling the West out of the stone age instead of the opposite. and the articles that were listed a few pages back were good examples of people trying to blur this line with bogus claims.

You guys are trying to mix in two things that dont go very well- science and belief. science is a way of obtaining data. beliefs are an acceptance of a concept regardless of evidence.

Let me bother you for something: define Qi