effect of directing the qi

[zachsan]

i try to put the phrase "burden of proof" in quotes often because that's not really what i mean. you can believe anything you want without needing to prove anything to me or anyone else. i just use it as a simplified way of applying occam's razor to metaphysical and extraordinary claims.

[dogchow108]

Things i've learned from this thread:

You can make claims that you can't back.

You can expect people to believe these claims and be the reasonable one.

You can claim something can be used and directed even though you refuse to define it.

You can cheapen actual scientific research by mixing it with cheap pseudoscience.

You can get away with this, because the part of the real science that you mixed in there will be a place for your bogus part to fall back on.

You can, apparently get away with this.

This thread has not made a significant advance in the past several pages.


--At least it has been entertaining.


One thing i would like to point out though. You can practice Qigong all day long, even feel effects that may very (if not definately) well be effects of the excercizes. Claiming that you have evidence (for yourself or otherwise) of Qi becuse of that has all the power of giving somene a feather and telling them you got it from a mouse. This might be news to you, but a system working on hypothetical components, even if successful in doing what its supposed to do, is no proof that the components are in fact there much less working.

Can I make this any simpler? I hope i dont have to. This idea has been repeated ad nauseum only to be met with repeated bleatings indicating that the idea just went over the readers head. Its actually quite amazing, if you read this thread its really a comedy!

****Unbased claim****
---> logical explanation of why it is ridiculous
---> but...unbased claim anyway
---> logical explanation why the claim is ridiculous (more than likely the same explanation as before)
---> but, really...unbased claim! please, i can feel it!
---> slaps forehead, tries another explanation.
---> hmm, well what about ambiguously ridiculous claim, then?

Maybe i'm just looking at this the wrong way. You see, there seems to be this general pattern here. With the exception of just a couple of people here, there honestly seems to be an amazing lack of understandng of scientific thought here. Bewilderingly so, actually. I guess i've really just expected too much of people here. so really, i'll stick around but (and please dont take this personally) i'll quit the scientific thing for this thread because you guys seriously dont seem to know what the hell is being told to you.

Here: Because of a few cowardly publications and the word of a few avid and honestly respectable Qigong practitioners, i believe down to the darkest recesses of my mind that there is Qi. What is it? I wont bother to tell you. You want a definition,,,naah, no need here ill just tell you a couple things about it instead. Besides, i know that as soon as you practice Qigong, you will just get it and that renders me free of any explanation to you unworthy bli...i mean wonderful people. In fact, i don't even have to believe in Qi, i have proof of it. I know it's there! How? because when i practice Qigong i can feel the Qi inside doin' its thing. Come to think of it, i dont know how i havent just believed in Qi throughout all the nearly seven years i've dealt with Qigong and Qi-related martial arts. Silly me, all this time all i had to do was just tell myself it was there and there it would have been! And, of course, it thats proof enough for me then obviously by being convinced so should be enough for you! aint it great tho?

[zachsan]

"The need to believe in phony wonders sometimes exceeds not only logic but, seemingly, even sanity."
--The Rev. Canon William V. Rauscher

"just cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there"
--radiohead

[Blue Sky]

Got Chi? - YES

According to available documents, before the Liang Dynasty (540 A.D.) martial arts (Kung Fu) did not study how to use Chi. Chi theory had been practiced in medicine only. Emperor Liang Wu invited a buddhist monk to teach buddhism, but the monk did not agree with the emperor's ways. So, he crossed the Yellow River to the Shaolin Temple to teach there. He wrote two classics - Yi Gin Ching (Muscle/Tendon Changing) and Shii Soei Ching (Marrow/Brain Washing). After he died the Shaolin monks continued to practice his methods and soon found it very effective to combine martial arts with Chi. The Yi Gin Ching was not originally intended to be used for fighting, however, the martial Chi Kung based on it was able to significantly increase power, leading them to establish an internal foundation based on Chi training. There are at least two internal styles which were created during this time (550-600 A.D.); Hou Tian Fa (Post-Heaven Techniques) and Sheau Jeou Tian (Small Nine Heavens). These two styles were the original sources of Tai Chi Chaun, the creation of which is credited to Chang San-Feng of the Late Song dynasty around 1200 A.D.

Does Chi exist? Human - Please! Thousands of Shaolin monks can't be wrong!!! Is you crazy??

[dogchow108]

According to available documents, before the Liang Dynasty (540 A.D.) martial arts (Kung Fu) did not study how to use Chi. Chi theory had been practiced in medicine only. Emperor Liang Wu invited a buddhist monk to teach buddhism, but the monk did not agree with the emperor's ways. So, he crossed the Yellow River to the Shaolin Temple to teach there. He wrote two classics - Yi Gin Ching (Muscle/Tendon Changing) and Shii Soei Ching (Marrow/Brain Washing). After he died the Shaolin monks continued to practice his methods and soon found it very effective to combine martial arts with Chi. The Yi Gin Ching was not originally intended to be used for fighting, however, the martial Chi Kung based on it was able to significantly increase power, leading them to establish an internal foundation based on Chi training. There are at least two internal styles which were created during this time (550-600 A.D.); Hou Tian Fa (Post-Heaven Techniques) and Sheau Jeou Tian (Small Nine Heavens). These two styles were the original sources of Tai Chi Chaun, the creation of which is credited to Chang San-Feng of the Late Song dynasty around 1200 A.D.

Does Chi exist? Human - Please! Thousands of Shaolin monks can't be wrong!!! Is you crazy??

I can honestly say that this post made my jaw drop in agony. can you remember this from like ten minutes ago???

****Unbased claim****
---> logical explanation of why it is ridiculous
---> but...unbased claim anyway
---> logical explanation why the claim is ridiculous (more than likely the same explanation as before)
---> but, really...unbased claim! please, i can feel it!
---> slaps forehead, tries another explanation.
---> hmm, well what about ambiguously ridiculous claim, then?

sheesh.

oh yea, thats right i forgot i decided to believe in Qi anyway.

[Blue Sky]

homina, homina, homina

Most things read on this site are interesting in the fact that hardly anyone refers to a source of information. I have to agree with xing_jian. If one knows Chi - he knows it. If you don't have an open mind you will never experience it. It is not up to ones who know Chi to prove it. It is up to those who have not experienced it to find their way. Human Chi is INTERNAL and can only come from within. Most of the replys seem to be written by people with an "I Disease". Every sentence contains the word "I". "I" believe this, "I" don't believe that. In the words of Bruce Lee - 'Your glass is too full, nothing can be added to it'.

[dogchow108]

****Unbased claim****
---> logical explanation of why it is ridiculous
---> but...unbased claim anyway
---> logical explanation why the claim is ridiculous (more than likely the same explanation as before)
---> but, really...unbased claim! please, i can feel it!
---> slaps forehead, tries another explanation.
---> hmm, well what about ambiguously ridiculous claim, then?

the wheels on the bus go round and round....

[Blue Sky]

What bus?

No one is trying to claim anything. Some here want Chi to be proven. I don't think people who believe that Chi exists would care less if you believe it or not. It is not in our interest to prove Chi exists. Remember, you can only find something if you are looking for it. Chi is a human concept - it exists in the human mind - as does all wisdom. Animals don't need to accept it as they live it already. Animals are closer to understanding Tao than any human - there are no egos to get in their way. The human ego is what is blocking human's view. If you can imagine Yin-Yang as a map of the universe-don't see it as a static picture. It is swirling and ebbing and flowing into itself, kind of like a vapor. It is also increasing in size as the universe grows. The only place that is uneffected is the very center. This is the 'home' of Tao. The Tao does everything without doing anything. Universe Chi is the 'glue' that holds it all together.

[onesp1ng]

seems some are claiming a whole lot while not wanting to claim anything....
seems some are attempting to prove much without the desire to prove it....
and seems some are also saying what rings true to them without any "source information."


g

[Blue Sky]

Qi Gong theory

I have to agree with you, onesp1in. Like I said though, it doesn't feel like people who believe Qi exists are not trying to push their views on anyone. Only to try and guide them if they want the advice. And people who do not believe in the theory are hell-bent on disproving it. I have only been studying Taoism for 35 years and it feels I have only scratched the surface. Maybe in another 35 years I'll get the 'hang' of it. Any information I have passed on are from outside sources -try Masters Yang Jwing-Ming, Liang Shou-yu, Eva Wong, Hua-Ching Ni, Liu I-Ming, Mantak Chia, Chung Liang Huang, Deng Ming-Dao, Steven Kuei, Kwak Man Ho, Chang Po-Tuan, Paul Compton, James McNeil, Robert Sohn, Park Bok Nam, Terry Dunn, James Legge, Bruce Lee, Chaung, Hua Hu Ching, Howard Smith, Al Chung-liang Huang for a very few. And of course, Chuang Tze and Lao Tzu.
And if you don't embrace the Tao, if you think you have any new ideas - try reading Aristotle. That should keep your feet on the ground.

[onesp1ng]

Is there anyone here "hell-bent'' on disproving anything? It appears they're trying to have a solid conversation without getting caught in a trap of speculation. The whole try it and you'll know things reminds me of several things...that are -- for lack of an even more straight forward way of expressing them -- purely disingenuous. It's the evidence that's missing. We know that these things have been practiced for centuries. I practice several kinds of qigong, as do many many others on this board and in this thread. Those who appear to be against it are in fact practitioners searching for what seems clearer means of distinguishing the true possibilities and/ limits of the practice. You can tell me to go....dance and jiggle in the park every day and say i'll be a great qigong practitioner one day who understands the tao, have great qi (under the guise of qi), and I may have extraordinary benefits, etc.. but there is nothing saying that simply dancing would keep me from obtaining the same thing. The burden of proof does come back to those who are making the claims. The person who is interested in what qi is is simply trying understand if what your claiming is true, accurately. Those who make claims push the burden of proof on to them, cuase they don't just say, "yeah, cool, I'll try without any explaination." I suppose the question is... why does it happen? What is it's function? What would closely relate to it and would other exercises foster similar results? Don't come down on those who do that. Maybe they can swim really far or jog....and feel what you call qi. Maybe we like these kinds of exercises...because the feel good. Or perhaps there is something special about these old exercises that create sensations and abilities other practices can't.

g

[dogchow108]

Onesp1ng, i tried to give you rep for that one but it wouldnt let me.

Blue sky- what bus? to dignify that with an explanation would require me to copy and paste the thread onto one post.

[Blue Sky]

Yowsa Yowsa

I know all about 'Runner's High', I used to run marathons. 'Runner's High' is a real phenomena, but it is nothing like experiencing Chi. Long distance running and other high stress activities will cause the brain to release serotonan. One can experience Chi while totally relaxed. I don't need an explanation, but thanks anyway. May I recommend Lao-Tzu's Treatise of the Responce of the Tao by Li Ying-Chang, Steal My Art: The Life of T. T. Liang by Stuart Olson, and Cheng-Tzu's 13 Treatises on T'ai Chi Ch'uan by Benjamin Lo. If you are looking for proof, perhaps you may find it in some of these writings (if you read between the lines). Like I said, it is an internal sense (endoteric), it can only become aware of from the inside. Nobody will be able to give the proof you are looking for. That would be an external (exoteric) stimulus. If that were true, it would have been done already - don't ya think so? The same explanation holds true for Tao. To put it as simple as possible, first there was Tao, then Wu-Chi (stillness) which then supported T'ai Chi (movement) - They became Yin and Yang. From these two came the three - Universe Chi, Earth Chi and Human Chi. From these three came everything else. But, again, you can only accept this from within. Words are not real, only arrows that point the Way.
For the concrete evidence, the closest thing you may come across is a book ***led Supersymmetry, Unveiling the Ultimate Laws of Nature by Gordon Kane. It shows the latest findings of the Universe being perfectly symmetric, (just like Yin-Yang !! ).

[onesp1ng]

point missed...yet again.

[zachsan]

there is no law that requires someone to think. if someone refuses to consider something rationally, you can't make them, no matter how many times you repeat your reasoning to them - the same way they can repeat the same faulty reasoning 1,000 times and it will not make any more sense than it did the first time. debate is a function of logic, and all parties involved have to agree to use it, or else it will end up looking, well, a lot like this.

so sometimes, you just gotta call it quits. hopefully whatever other people are reading this will allow themselves to make the logical steps that XJ and BS will not.