Wong Kiew Kit

[prajna]

Re: lol

Originally posted by Maestro
lol

yea..no experience

i guess we need to go and experience some chi flow so we can see that what dan, anthony, and ronan etc said wasnt insulting..disrespectful..and generally uncharacteristic of everything they claim to be..

So true.

but i guess that doesnt matter these guys learned how to use "kung fu" for self defense..because cmon guys..those wahnam vid clips..whoo didnt they just blow you away? gody those were some amazing video clips..

dunno about the rest of the russbo community..but man, i cant wait to go train with those guys

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiii

I'm sorry. I wrote it when I was quite tired, and I didn't recheck it. I should have put a better case. Those video clips were of Sigung's students sparring for the first time. I think they did a pretty good job, I've seen far worse, and since then I have seen them in practice performing much better.

I know you must be sick of hearing "you have to try it for yourself" but ultimatly it's true. Just like I don't know what training with a monk would be like and so I cannot/will not judge. I try and keep a very open mind. I have some severe joint problems, and the practice has benefitted me very much. I'm not saying "my teacher is better than yours", or anything like that. I'm just trying to answer the original question.

From speaking with other students I think that side of Malaysia is safer than London (I can definatly believe that)

[Maestro]

lol

lol

yea..no experience

i guess we need to go and experience some chi flow so we can see that what dan, anthony, and ronan etc said wasnt insulting..disrespectful..and generally uncharacteristic of everything they claim to be..

but i guess that doesnt matter these guys learned how to use "kung fu" for self defense..because cmon guys..those wahnam vid clips..whoo didnt they just blow you away? gody those were some amazing video clips..

dunno about the rest of the russbo community..but man, i cant wait to go train with those guys

eeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiii

[doc]

Thanks. The site has been quite the monster over the years.

Excellent point about trying it for yourself. I'm going to head down to Malaysia one of these years, during one of my Asian trips, if my health gets better, and if the terrorists stop hunting excedingly huge and ugly Americans as game, to visit with WKK. Until then, all we've got to discuss now is what we know, what we hear, and what we've read.

Which, if you haven't noticed, is substantial.

[prajna]

Hello everyone,

I'm Jon, and also a Wahnam student (used to practice Ving Tsun) being taught by Sifu Hartwright (London class). I joined the school for various reasons. The main reason was to help alleviate some health problems. It has worked far better than I expected, my only problem is making sure I practice daily (i'm getting better at that). The other reason was that I wanted to learn good Kungfu for defense (using Kungfu) and eventually spiritual cultivation, I am confident the way we train gives us these skills from watching my seniors demonstrate and listening to them. I'm very happy with Shaolin Wahnam. I really enjoy the classes.

I am hoping to attend the Kungfu course in August with Sigung (75% sure).

I also recently attended the Chi Kung courses conducted by Sigong in London a few weeks back. The courses were very interesting and enjoyable.

As for cults, I think the idea is silly. But hey, if Shaolin Wahnam is not your thing, that's your right. The only way to really see is to try for yourself, until then you can speculate all you want but you'll never really know.

Jon

P.S. great site doc

[shaolinstylee]

I'd recommend going into toe archive and looking for the Wong Kiew Kit threads there.

[jordanf]

Interesting.

My name is Jordan and I am a student of Sifu Hartwright, thus Grandmaster Wong Kiew Kit is my Sigung.

I attended the Intensive Kung Fu course in Malaysia with Sigung last month, which was my first btw. There were no hard rules on how to conduct yourself, no one was told they had to treat Sigung or each other in any special way etc, it was actually a very friendly atmosphere. Everyone was basically enjoying their practise, and gaining the skills that we all went there to get.

I would love to hear more opinions from people who have actually learned from Sigung (or any one else in the Wahnam Institute), as currently Wooden Dummy is the only one here with actual experience of this matter.

Kind regards,

Jordan.

[doc]

Basically, I was doing the "walk down the garden path" thing.

There's a concept in medicine called "walking down the garden path". You see a patient with a complaint, and you immediately make a judgement the so-called "initial impression". Then, after further investigation and studies, you find more and more results, that may or may not support your initial diagnosis. But, you "walk down the garden path" and try to make the results fit with what you initially think it is, sometimes to the point of ordering tests that you know are going to support what you're thinking. The problem with all of this is, you become ignorant of other possibilities, one of which might be the correct diagnosis. It happens all the time in medicine, and, in every other facet of our lives to some degree.

You can use this concept with people in another way. You can lead people "down the garden path", directing their thoughts and responses in such a way so that they eventually respond in a manner that you want them to. If you're successful, you can get them to definitively comment on things that are way off base. If you set it up right, you can then trash them with factual material that completely ruins their initial argument.

Now, this might sound mean, but it isn't. It's called "rhetoric", or the art of the argument. It's especially useful with people who tend to lend more credence to beliefs than facts. It's just a way of turning an argument based on nonsensical, religious, mystical, or otherwise beliefs into something a bit more educational, based upon commonly accepted factual material.

WKK made some fairly interesting and outrageous claims in his books, in my opinion. I'm not saying that he's wrong, I'm just saying that I feel they're not consistent with commonly accepted medical and scientific thought. Using qi gong to cure endometriosis and other medical diseases as an adjunct is fine; I'm sure that there are benefits, both mental and physical. Using qi gong as THE cure for some of these diseases, is, in my opinion, outrigtht wrong. What I was trying to do, was to make this point clear. What I ended up doing, was basically nothing. The Wahnamites left the discourse when it became obvious things were not going to go their way. Which, is fine. I wasn't planning on embarassing anybody; I was just trying to turn the whole thing into an educational forum in which all might learn. Including me.

[bhodi]

WKK

Besides ...where else could this avatar debue except in this thread?

[bhodi]

wkk

I don't really have anything to say here I just wanted to roll in the mud a little bit....

I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth (to steal a line from Anthony)...

What it seems like to me is they completely divorce the kung fu they learn from buddhism which automatically strips the shaolin art of any kind of authenticity in my book. The Zen they claimed to be learning was more like pureland and it just wasn't making sense to me how Anthony could mispronounce Amitabha and dispell a spirit from his apartment. I am not to sure that Wong Kiew Kit was curing anybodies anything. I think that there is some kind of placebo thing goin on.

I was interested to here where Doc was going with the whole endometriosis or whatever it was but he never sprung that trap. The not training people with aids thing was a little far fetched. I don't have any doubt that there is some strong parralels to a cult. There does seem to be evidence of some mind control tactics and like my brother said a few times ..."don't drink the Kool-aid..."

So where were you going with that thread Doc? I mean before you were threatened with invasion of privacy and slander and all the rest of it????

Bhodi

[jeffpeg]

Term: Cult of personality
Definition: An organization that exists with the understanding the figure head of the group is somehow beyond reproach and the ideal it's members strive to attain.

OK, not sure if that's Webster’s definition, but I think it pretty much sums it up. This condition is what tends to make me stay away from most traditional martial arts and has lead me into boxing, Muay Thai, Jiu Jitsu etc. I don't think that most of these figure heads actually set out to establish a "church of them" but there are some key ingredients in TMA that do tend to set up this situation.

A-egomaniacal instructors
B-people who join a program "searching for fulfillment" or a sense of belonging
C-elitist students who put themselves above the beginner due to their experience.

When I ran my academies in NY it was truly amazing what people had in their heads when they came into classes. Yup, I even had a kid "sit at my doorstep to prove his worthiness". Some people actually got upset when I told them to "just call me Jeff" instead of a title. People are lonely and spiritually void out there and are easily led into these situations, and on the other side of the spectrum are easily tempted to take advantage of the adoration. I always saw my school as a business and ran it as such. Of course it was a business that did a lot of good for people and that gave me a sense of satisfaction about what I did for a living...but I always had a mantra I lived by..."You don't ask people to pay tuition AND pay dues". Meaning, if I provided a service for a fee then I was their employee and it was my responsibility to provide a good class, a clean academy, proper courtesy towards my employers and a safe environment. I've had plenty of students offer to mop my floors and I never accepted. In my eyes it was my responsibility. I had a kid from a bad situation who would mop up and help me around the school in exchange for taking classes for free as well as the paying customers also. I also made sure my senior members understood that weather you could only do one push-up or a hundred, weather you were there for years or it was your first class that no one's better then anyone else. In fact, the "most important" person in the room was the first timer.

I have taken that attitude towards my own training with other instructors. I pay a fee and expect a service. I expect to be treated with respect, to receive the instruction I've paid for, for classes to start and stop on time, and be in an environment that fosters my growth in the art of choice. The biggest thing I pay for is to sweat...a lot! It's what draws me to my boxing coach. We say hi, BS for a few minutes and get down to it. No butt kissing, no proclamations of his greatness, just hard work.

[juszczec]

Hi folks

I could not (and do not) treat anyone in the fashion Wahnam students treat WKK or want people to treat WKK. Nor could I tell a person to treat anyone else like that.

His more extreme chi enabled feats (dispersing clouds, curing cancer and other diseases etc) are just too much for me to accept on faith.

I disagree with the whole "this is how you should behave in front of the master" thing. What became of "when in Rome do as the Romans" ? Requiring people of another culture to follow a prescribed set of instructions about interacting with you is more than I can accept.

But, if his students are happy with what they are getting AND they don't want me to buy into the whole thing then I figure its their business how they want to conduct themselves.

Frankly, I've seen karate people do this kind of thing and worse. That's where I lost my tolerance for it.

Mark

[wooden dummy]

Actually there's 2 or 3 guys (whose names I forget... some kinda crazy Malaysian names like Kok Hin or something) who've trained with WKK for many years. I dunno how many, but many.

And whether the people in this Korean cult ever met the head dude or not, they must have been somewhat family-ish, big cult get togethers and all, or else what they call the "collective consciousness brainwashing" wouldn't have kicked in (this is one of the main factors in getting a cult to work)- y'see in a big group, people get this sort of herd mentality and are very open to suggestion- it's none too easy to set up a cult where you don't actually have everybody together in one place for any length of time. Hmm phone-in cults... now there's an idea.

Most of them (the most influential ones) take the form of a kind of nasty kibbutz (good name for a band) or ashram, where you've got everyody in a codependent relationship, usually paying shitloads of money for the "privilege" of being part of a group that supposedly knows the will of God, or the aliens or some such BS.

[Bungle]

haha, that's funny Doc. Wooden, not all cults behave like faimilies. There was a korean guy who ran a martial art cult in america and the students were taught to revere him almost as a god. None of them ever met him (i could probaly get your more info if you like). www.e-budo.com is full of dodgy martial art stories n wotnot. I'm actually not interested really any more. I think i was just venting. I'm looking forward to your essay though. Insight into the two schools should be interesting.

Doc, thanks for the pointer to the e-books. I'm kinda up to my kneck in them already, i hate reading books from a computer screen too.....

Can you get e-book readers? Anyone tried one?

[doc]

i guess im just gonna have to go out and worship some hooters girls and claim they can cure my anger management problems..

LOL.

Maestro, having spent some time worshiping the "ladies" there, I can assure you, they won't cure a damn thing.

They have more than enough trouble curing their own problems.

[Maestro]

lol

for someone who doesnt know wkk at all and has never met him you sure have alot to say about how he is, how he does things, why he does them and where its all going..

but whatever, just remember there woody your not the only one here who knows about wahnam, so you trained with wahnam..pfft so what..i scoff at that like you scoffed when i said ive been training for a few months..

i dont care how long youve trained with good ole dan hartwright, me and alot of the others here know things you dont

those "crazy senior inner chamber disciples of the cosmic crazyness" your talking about are 2-3 year students..dans only been wkks student for 3 years there bucko, and ronan a little less..with darryl and some of the others a little further behind or ahead..but none of them are real long time students at all..wow 2-3 years wow thats some crazy stuff...you gotta be kidding me they arent grandmasters yet?!?!? wow man i cant believe that sob wkk has only named them masters after those 3 long years of hard work..man what a miseralble **** that guy is..damn B

****ing ridiculous..

this whole convo about wkk is ridiculous..i wonder if it will ever end here on russbo..

i guess im just gonna have to go out and worship some hooters girls and claim they can cure my anger management problems..

i mean what else can i do?!?!?