New Chinese Cardinal: Beijing Must Change

[onesp1ng]

Where does that come from, that mentality? Communism didn't always exist. Although the population has increased, there was another political party present after the fall of the qing dynasty. That government was eventually booted out and moved to Taiwan. Why does a country that is over populated NEED communism? Is it because we haven't witnessed any other controlling party in China throughout our lives, and so conclude that what "works" is necessary? BL said, " I don't think u guys realize in actuality how hard it's gotta be to control that many ppl who are suffering both natural elements and dire shortage of just about everything." Aren't the shortages she's mentioned and suffering at least a partial result of communism, as well as the various Chinese monarchies that existed over many centuries? When people appear to be "pseudo" proponents of communism without a full understanding of it's ramifications, it's very odd to me. Of course I'm no Chinese history scholar or political scientist, so it'll be intersting to know what you guys think about this.

[tetsumaru]

I shat myself when I read your post, Onesp1ng. Because it is true what you say. I feel that just because it works doesn't mean it the best way to do things....hey slavery worked! Fighting terrorism "worked"! Shaolin village is still alive! (or is it?) remaking old TV shows into movies "works"!

wake the F U C K up......

[zachsan]

BL said, " I don't think u guys realize in actuality how hard it's gotta be to control that many ppl who are suffering both natural elements and dire shortage of just about everything." Aren't the shortages she's mentioned and suffering at least a partial result of communism, as well as the various Chinese monarchies that existed over many centuries?

More importantly (to me), who decided that, difficulty aside, the main goal of the government should be to "control" those people?

[LeiYunFat]

Governement is and always was a form of control. The extent to which this control extends to is the issue...

In this case, having a bias, I find it wrong that governement dictate what you can and cannot believe...in terms of something as personal as religion, which is subjective anyway.

[onesp1ng]

well, I've come across that kind of rhetoric before, and yeah it's the whole "you need to control people due to the high population" thing, which I just don't get. Sometimes people need to be handled, sure, but controlled? And it'd be interesting to know if Chinese actually acquired this self degregating outlook, in effect saying, "hell, there's just so many of us that we need communism, cause nothing else can do the job. we should live like this and accept it." OK, many people live with it and accept it, there're also people that are communist and believe in the party's views, but I've never heard a Chinese say they are partial to the values of communism because of the countries population problem.

[LeiYunFat]

I think what was meant by BL was that Communism evolved in the right conditions and took root, just like it did in Russia. However, her logic is flawed in that since it "worked" at the time, it is therefore the correct way for them to live now...

And I don't know if I should just let it go or get offended by that.

[LeiYunFat]

Not if you win.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

"control" is probably misleading... I meant that as far as keeping order so that ppl can be fed and recources are moved and shared effectively .. if that's what's had to happen, it just was... and it blew me away recently to admit to myself that what happened to shaolin was one of those things.... saad sad stuff but we're talking a rapidly growning 1.3 Billion hungry ppl!! "What if " questions about what 'should have ' happened differently and the outcomes of that aren't exactly serving much.
Step 1. Shut ppl up long enough to keep ppl alive long enough to execute step 2.
Step 2. Suck up to countries with money and get our feet in door.
Step 3. take over and make the bastards suffer.

cheers

[onesp1ng]

Hmmm, I think I see what you're saying.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Despite my better judgement, I went ahead to read your post, BL (incase you haven't realized yet, you're on my ignore list.)

Basically, you're saying that it's okay for people to blindly follow a single idea because they are having hard times? I called them sheep. And as far as that goes, it's true. You said so yourself, I believe...

But I don't know. One second you sound like you're attacking me for being condecending, the next, you're implying the same things I've said...

no actually, I didn't realise. aand I have no idea what you mean!...

As for what happened Sp1ng, there's not a whole lot to tell but nearly everywhere I went this time it was reeeally really cold and 'they' ( the natives) were working waay harder than yoiu'd want to believe is reasonable and their accoms were horrible and under furnished and amenetied and they were reeeeeally poor ... and I wasn't ...
it was sad ok.
ok.

[onesp1ng]

I've been thinking about this for a while and, although I think BL and I have come to similar conclusions, maybe I have a bit of a different twist on things.
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China’s growth was tremendous, it just wasn't influenced by the rest of the world, and they did little to incorporate newer, more efficient methods into "their world." Though actually astoundingly industrious, China essentially turned inward throughout the song period with very little interest in the direction of innovation. This happened because China's population became the largest in the world at this time, and basically they were forced to develop the most efficient "feeding system" as a result. Their primary focus, and all of their resources, ultimately rested on feeding people. Unfortunately, where others eventually turned to technology and innovation to increase agricultural productivity, China utilized very labor intensive methods to do the same job, and they've only recently attempted to change.

China was also pretty much devoid of an real education system. It was a tradition society. Trades and skills were not learned in the classroom as they are today, they were passed down from master to student. It was the family's duty to seek out and create these oppotunities by developing more and more "guanxi" in society. If you found a teacher, you learned what he or she passed down to you, which left little room for students to investigate things on their own. Of course if you had good "guanxi," you could find good jobs for people and bypass, if you will, the trade industry for positions in government.

So, a strong dependence on the past remained with little vision for the future. It seems to me, therefore, that the problem we see today in modern China is not necessarily related to communism, but is rather a combination of the effects from an increase in population during the song period, a stubborn ignorance concerning the benefits of innovation and trade sometime thereafter, as well as an almost non-exexistent educational system.....

[zachsan]

Obviously, China had problems prior to communism. The pattern seems to be that any country needs to have its fair share of problems before communism can take root there.

[zachsan]

That's an interesting thought, doc. The French certainly haven't shown an aversion to fiscally "progressive" policies in recent history. But becoming communist might get in the way of their ultimate ambition of being taken seriously.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I think in situations of communism, more than being associated with problems , I think it's more like being practical through autonomy...


and back to the religio/political side of the thread, I also think that's why things like buddhism with it's views on detetchment and confucism with it's stance on fighting for it and toughing through and even daoism and it's live natural and use the land and nature as your teacher of what u need systems are sooo important to what's kept these societies running .. and why although subjected to a certain suuurrface conformist expectation to abide and tolerate and operate under western belief systems where needs are different and different belief systems are what's going to get theem through, they're stiiil buddhist and daoist and whatever and are oppressed by the imposition the new neo-colonial capitaslism that is now dictating they way they are forced to operate should they want a shot...

It suks!!.. In the school Iwas at the Director was an Iranian Bahi ( sp??) extremist and just a fuk of an insulting woman to be near. She was horrendous - but she had a master of couselling and was the best they could do to advertise as having "western" ( rolleyes btw) mngmt and so with her dogma and degradation, their own practices were cut off at the trunk and made an undergrund vigil... and thaaat's part of what was so sad about it! They don't give a fuk!! They just want something that's going to keep them spirtually comfortable enough to get through... and 2 be able share it or not pretend 'd b nice 2...

they're not idiots, if u can further their position they'll tolerate.... but whotf saays it's of reeeal value to them otherwise??

No offence Zachsan, but have u even been to Asia?? .........

[zachsan]

No, and why would I take offense to that? I don't know much about the current affairs of Asia, really, which is why my comments have been about communism in general and not China specifically in this and other threads.

I'm still having a hard time understanding your writing (although it is much improved), so forgive me if I'm missing your point entirely, but all you're doing is talking about the reasons communism "fits" in China. I don't think anyone is challenging you on those, but you seem to be confusing the reasons why it is practical for the reasons why it is good.