Xing Jian, before i go on here, how many dialects of chinese are you fluent in? and by that i dont mean this and that type of mandarin, i mean like the difference between Mandarin, and, say, Cantonese. How many dialects of Chinese with extremely significant differences do you speak?
Having asked that, i'll get to my point.
It may be easier for chinese to learn a second dialect of their language, but your statement regarding tones as a factor seems extremely arbitrary. heres a few reasons why:
-My Hong-Kongnese friends who came with me into the chinese class this year, did TERRIBLE. They had to study just to pass.
-My mandarin speaking friends who are not native Cantonese speakers have the same problem, even in little instances where i will sit at a mult-dialectual table and hear them try to teach each other.
-Many of my Cantonese-speaking friends, when really called on it, cannot explain the tones of their own language to another chinese, much less learn the seemingly basic and would-be easy-to-learn-for-Chinese Mandarin tones.
-the Chinese people i know who are fluent in both dialects (amongst others) have spoken the languages, both of them, ALL their lives.
-here are some interesting ones- My mandarin pronunciation and sometimes even vocabulary is already better after 6-10 months of Mandarin than is most of my Mandarin friends' English- people who have lived here for years. Do i fond tones to be a problem? no...except in the case that its a new word i didnt know. the same way that words in English can have different meanings.
-More? I am often told that i manage to pronounce Cantonese words better than Mandarin-speaking friends who try with me. And I am not the only "foreigner" who i have seen receive this compliment.
Now, regarding the familiarity with the ambiguities brought about by tones-
Even in the sense of the concept being familiar- i agree, it is alien at first, but i think you are making more of it than it really is. First off, you ARE aware, that English has tones. right? second, are you aware that i just used an example? in the same way that a tone in chinese can change the meanin of a word, or even a sentence, the same can happen in English. If you are not aware of this (as i was once oblivious to how important this can be), i really would suggest you read a bit about the tonal linguistics of English. This is something i got to do mor than my fair share of when my Taiwanese girlfriend lived here struggling through her master's degree in English Education. I really think that the complexity of it will surprise you.
tones exist in English too, and English speakers use tones in ways completely alien to Chinese speakers. you can argue that to really get the language down well you need to know the tones of each word you are using. fine, then in order to really "get it" in English, the same should apply- and i see a lot less Chinese use this concept in English than i see Wai-Guo ren properly use chinese tones. So in my opinion, the tone thing goes out the window as far as it being more difficult for lao wai to learn.
This is the exact opposite of what you claim- the idea that familiarity with tones is a factor- because honestly it is not. as soon as you find out that one word can have a different meaning depending on how you say it, then fine- after that you are already aware of it as a concept and its a matter of learning how to remember, use and recognize them. a matter which not only do i not have evidence is easier for chinese learning a second dialect of their language, but that i actually have reason to believe is the opposite after seeing my friends go through class with me. I honestly suggest you watch that sometime if you havent- it surprized the hell out of me.
Now, if some words are similar- as many Cantonese words follow a certain equivalence to Mandarin words, for example, that might make it easier for a Chinese-speaker to learn. But then, at that point, Cantonese and shanghai dialect in that sense shuold be just as easy because tones are no longer a factor, and i have plenty of evidence to support that claim. add to that the fact that like 90% of spoken Cantonese is slang, and theres a whole new dimension to this away from tones.
tones can be a pain in the ass when learning Chinese, but they have never really seemed to put me at a disadvantage before. and they are no less a problem for me in chinese than they are for Chinese people in English.
Having asked that, i'll get to my point.
It may be easier for chinese to learn a second dialect of their language, but your statement regarding tones as a factor seems extremely arbitrary. heres a few reasons why:
-My Hong-Kongnese friends who came with me into the chinese class this year, did TERRIBLE. They had to study just to pass.
-My mandarin speaking friends who are not native Cantonese speakers have the same problem, even in little instances where i will sit at a mult-dialectual table and hear them try to teach each other.
-Many of my Cantonese-speaking friends, when really called on it, cannot explain the tones of their own language to another chinese, much less learn the seemingly basic and would-be easy-to-learn-for-Chinese Mandarin tones.
-the Chinese people i know who are fluent in both dialects (amongst others) have spoken the languages, both of them, ALL their lives.
-here are some interesting ones- My mandarin pronunciation and sometimes even vocabulary is already better after 6-10 months of Mandarin than is most of my Mandarin friends' English- people who have lived here for years. Do i fond tones to be a problem? no...except in the case that its a new word i didnt know. the same way that words in English can have different meanings.
-More? I am often told that i manage to pronounce Cantonese words better than Mandarin-speaking friends who try with me. And I am not the only "foreigner" who i have seen receive this compliment.
Now, regarding the familiarity with the ambiguities brought about by tones-
Even in the sense of the concept being familiar- i agree, it is alien at first, but i think you are making more of it than it really is. First off, you ARE aware, that English has tones. right? second, are you aware that i just used an example? in the same way that a tone in chinese can change the meanin of a word, or even a sentence, the same can happen in English. If you are not aware of this (as i was once oblivious to how important this can be), i really would suggest you read a bit about the tonal linguistics of English. This is something i got to do mor than my fair share of when my Taiwanese girlfriend lived here struggling through her master's degree in English Education. I really think that the complexity of it will surprise you.
tones exist in English too, and English speakers use tones in ways completely alien to Chinese speakers. you can argue that to really get the language down well you need to know the tones of each word you are using. fine, then in order to really "get it" in English, the same should apply- and i see a lot less Chinese use this concept in English than i see Wai-Guo ren properly use chinese tones. So in my opinion, the tone thing goes out the window as far as it being more difficult for lao wai to learn.
This is the exact opposite of what you claim- the idea that familiarity with tones is a factor- because honestly it is not. as soon as you find out that one word can have a different meaning depending on how you say it, then fine- after that you are already aware of it as a concept and its a matter of learning how to remember, use and recognize them. a matter which not only do i not have evidence is easier for chinese learning a second dialect of their language, but that i actually have reason to believe is the opposite after seeing my friends go through class with me. I honestly suggest you watch that sometime if you havent- it surprized the hell out of me.
Now, if some words are similar- as many Cantonese words follow a certain equivalence to Mandarin words, for example, that might make it easier for a Chinese-speaker to learn. But then, at that point, Cantonese and shanghai dialect in that sense shuold be just as easy because tones are no longer a factor, and i have plenty of evidence to support that claim. add to that the fact that like 90% of spoken Cantonese is slang, and theres a whole new dimension to this away from tones.
tones can be a pain in the ass when learning Chinese, but they have never really seemed to put me at a disadvantage before. and they are no less a problem for me in chinese than they are for Chinese people in English.
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