Current migrational patterns and economics: Why Paris is screwed

[Chicken]

What happens? This ever enlarging group of largely uneducated and lower income level people suck off the social services network, and don't pay taxes to support it. Hospitals and other health care providers, schools, welfare systems, etc, all suffer.

Paris is a mess with respect to this. The southwest and southeast of America is getting there. Britain is starting to have these issues, Germany and Sweden are having problems with it.

Doc, with respect, please leave UK out of this. Our population is oiled by immigrant labour, and believe me if our welfare state was overwhelmed by them we would know about it in our taxes, and its isn't happening. Our indigenous population is so significantly indecline that that economies are facing down a possibly unprecedented dependency ratio as the baby boomers move into their 60s, having not produced enough grandchildren to support them through their old age. Only the baby boomers (of which I think you are nearly one, or certainly of that generation), had the easiest rides of all those presently occupying the UK. They lived through a time when the economy was in a state of expansion, almost continually prospered, and don't understand why their kids (that's my generation) aren't falling on their feet as they did.

Well one of the outcomes of this, is never quite living up to the expectations of our parents, we think twice about entrenching our percieved failure on the next generation... and the birth rate near collapses. Without immigration in the UK, the UK would be in a significant depression.

That is also economics Doc.

The immigrant culture in the UK is that their immigrants work their butts off... give their children a better start in a place with opportunity then they would have had in their originating country, and instill in them an incredible work & prevailing ethic. The 2nd generations then usually clean up in our universtities, and the third are already model citizens. This applies more to some national's immigrants than others, but for example the prediliction for most of the afro-carribean immigrants for uniforms has been their saving grace. Well that and interbreeding...

The EU is another matter. Our systems, legal and otherwise, are not designed for the Eastern European immigrant criminal at this time, and the 20 years or so that it take Parliment to accommodate them, will have an impact on our crime rates and make the general population less complacent, and this does stoke racism to some nationalities.

Religious Fundamentalism, is another matter, but again the legislators are dealing with that.

I suspect Doc that you must be hanging out with some older ,pretty racist types if your "tar them all with the same brush" and the "we should have never let them in in the first place" approach to European Immigration is so. The younger generation in the UK doesn't think like that, and there in lies the hope that the social interation issues will eventually work their way through.

Still, no doubt, it won't quite get there before you Baby Boomers are pushing up daisys.

Chicken

[doc]

You're complicating this unnecessarily. It's simple.

France had a very open welfare state back in the Chirac era. He opened the door to immigrants, much like Carter did with the Cubans back in those times, and much like Bush / Clinton did with the Mexicans here.

They come. To escape the shit that they lived in. Also in Europe, now with the European union, you have Eastern Europeans migrating, some of whom are bringing criminal activity with them.

These immigrants do one thing better than the locals. They ****. A lot. And have many children. Big families are common. You typically find this in lower socioeconomic classes.

Give it twenty years, and their populations grow. In Germany's case, faster than the native Germans, who try to live more responsibly with respect to having children.

What happens? This ever enlarging group of largely uneducated and lower income level people suck off the social services network, and don't pay taxes to support it. Hospitals and other health care providers, schools, welfare systems, etc, all suffer.

Paris is a mess with respect to this. The southwest and southeast of America is getting there. Britain is starting to have these issues, Germany and Sweden are having problems with it.

It has nothing to do with racism. Nothing to do with what descent any of these people have. It has to do with migration of lower income class and educational level peoples to countries that have less restrictive social safety nets.

It's the economy. It's all about economics. Simple.

[Chicken]

Doc,

the view you have just described seems to place the responsibility for the marginalisation of French National's of French Colonial descent squarely on their shoulders.

I'm not so sure that this is fair. Racism towards the immigrants by the "indigenous population", is as obviously responsible for the segregation of opportunity and its ramifications, as they apply to the indigenously French and the immigrants, as are the immigrant populations for not trying to integrate and succeed.

I say this because well we have a flavour of these issues in the UK, in as far as racial divides and tensions, albeit that there isn't a perception that all immigrants are living off the welfare state. I don't think its healthy to point the finger and hold the immigration populations to blame for this. Especially since you can go to other countries, eg. Canada, the USA, Australia and see to different degrees how much more successfully they have managed immigration and societal integration.

So I conclude its as much the recipient populations attitude to particular foreigners that cause the problem... and if you want proof of this... just think for a second about the mutually reciprocal aminmosity that exists at cultural level between the English and the French, and all that business in the 1940's where we had to rely on the good old USA to step in and blow the whistle... Europe despite the hundereds of years of civilisation is still very tribal, and adept at projecting its ills onto foreigners and immigrants, so that they don't have to address those ills that actually exist within themselves.

Chicken

[LeiYunFat]

Yeah apparently it's a dirty, crime-ridden city.

[doc]

Yes, Paris has a significant amount of problems, from what I'm told, predominantly due to Chirac's open door policy twenty years ago with respect to the Turks and Muslims. Many came, fell into France's social net, and were thankful.

Then, they had lots of kids. Who grew up not as thankful, and with more expectations than their parents. Now, if they're not taken care of, they riot. The French police don't enter certain Muslim neighborhoods because French law just doesn't work in those areas. These people are not being productive, are sucking from the social teat, and are not providing tax income to the government.

As many French and British have told me here in Thailand, it's a mess. In fact, in one of the Thai newspapers recently, when they did a report on donations coming from the three largest Muslim countries that were supporting and building mosques in Thailand, Saudi Arabia, Syria and France were mentioned....

I hear that Germany and Sweden have similar problems.

[baiwanxi]

My French friends here in China claims that Paris is totaly FU**ED ! Americans are the only ones who have this "romantic" view of Paris, so they claim.