Muscles and strenght for fighting efficiency(not for sowing off on the beach!)

[juszczec]

to tie this in with the original intent of the thread: it's evident that almost all of us agree that size can be a huge advantage in a fight.

I think its important to realize lots of things give an advantage NOT just training.

Size helps. Speed helps. Being an evil SOB helps. Knowledge helps. And probably a host of other things I can't think of.

Its all about piling up as many advantages on your side as you can. After all, we're talking about survival.

so, for the little guy/girl who's never going to have the size advantage, what muscles specifically should be trained to make up for it,

IMHO legs, abs, grip, shoulders/arms (but I don't know which is more important, shoulders or arms)

and to best facilitate a weapons-based approach?

Using or defending against?

If using, I don't think strength is a big deal. How much strength does it take to swing a stick, stab or pull a trigger?

If defending against, then I don't know. I suspect same list as above. BUT I think its probably more important to stress drilling/repetition with an uncooperative partner when worrying about weapons defense. Why? Because the other guy having a weapon reduces your margin for error to about 0.

and for the big guy, how to best go about building strength while staying quick enough to compete when there are weapons involved?

A body is a body, so the same list applies. I don't think you need to worry about reducing your flexibility/quickness if you stretch and train for strength instead of size.

Also, big or small, I think the important thing about defending against a weapon is practice with an uncooperative partner in a forgiving situation NOT weight training.

Mark

[Maestro]

ok mortal, come here, knock me on my ass. ill give u a free lesson.

[flow]

Ok first i thank juszczec for his long post where i learnt some good techniques for increasing my strenght without using weights(even if i already knew some it's very good for me to try some new ones).I really appreciate your posts.

Then i think Mr Zachsan found the right words for my question,which is good,but i'm coming to the conclusion that there is no miraclous recipe for skinny bastards like me!Personnally i'm going to increase my strenght training more than ever,while going on learning boxing for now.I'm just lookin g forward to increasing my punch,that's it.

Still i have one question:among those who write here,who fought in real?I'm proud to say that i only fight in a ring with rules and respect,only for sport.You choose to go there,and if you feel you can't you simply don't go!
I don't want to kill anybody and if i did,i would grab a gun(not a stick),kill someone and go to jail for the rest of my life(COOL!).

Nah you can be sure that robbers and thugs from the streets won't attact you if they feel they couldn't win...That's why they will usually be at least 3 or four big guys,and won't let you a chance.For me the important is to gain as many skills as we can,whatever the size,the weights...just try to be athletes at our own levels,and work a maximum,for personnal satisfaction.We all like adrenaline here i guess,it's a good drug.

Then of course i admitt that someone trained and heavy muscled will kick my ass,therefore he won't have time 'cause for sure i will run away///// or if it's a matter of life surely(pretty rare in our societies-hopefully-)come close and rip his eyes or use my teeth to eat his throat and drink the blood spurting for his convulsioned body screaming a powerful "ARGHHHHHHHH" of enjoyment...Have you seen the movie?

[LeiYunFat]

small guy- eat a lotta burgers
big guy- go on a diet, fatass.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Hi folks




Ummm, I've not been reading the forums lately so I don't know any backstory that may have contributed to the above comments. Please keep that in mind as you read the following.

Taking it all at face value, Zach said weight (or size, or strength or muscle mass) is an advantage and you want all the advantages you can get when it comes to self defense.

I see nothing wrong with the statement.

I fail to see how the comments about the apocryphal heroic Chinese monks and villagers and that bastion of martial knowledge, the actor Bruce Lee, have to do with the simple fact that increased size due to muscle mass is an advantage, as is increased strength with or without significant increases in size.

Mark

It's no simple fact.it's a common misconception too too many hold onto too dearly in lieu of other things more important. Fair enough you've never seen seen evidence to it's viabilties ( though ask doc how he stacks against tinier Decheng for starters ) but when you're talking ( and have experience in tmas and particularly imas) you come to understand that Arnie will not always win and you will not always be him. .........and so you need other things and principals and techs and methods..................

happy naivety nonetheless..............may it be bliss .

Blooming tianshi

[juszczec]

happy naivety nonetheless..............may it be bliss .

So why all the hate?

It's no simple fact.it's a common misconception too too many hold onto too dearly in lieu of other things more important.

Let me try this again.

Size is an advantage. So is strength. So is training. So is experience. So is willingness to cripple your opponent. So is harnessing chi (although I'll admit I'm skeptical it can be done as easily as some want us to think).

An advantage is an advantage and you can't have too many.

Fair enough you've never seen seen evidence to it's viabilties ( though ask doc how he stacks against tinier Decheng for starters )

I can imagine what Doc would say and it only stands to reason when you figure Decheng probably trained more in 1 day than most of us do in a week.

As for evidence - I've seen big guys beat up little guys. I've seen little guys beat up big guys. Any single advantage, or group of advantages, can be neutralized by someone with a different advantage, or group of advantages.

There is no single solution. If there was, we'd all practice it and there wouldn't be the need for forums like this.

but when you're talking ( and have experience in tmas and particularly imas)

I have experience in TMAs. Karate - 23 years. Jujutsu - 7 years. Grappling - 4 years. Tiny bit of judo.

you come to understand that Arnie will not always win and you will not always be him.

Ummmm, I understand that very well. It is, after all, why I started training. I needed an advantage. Also, after 15 years of lifting weights and now weighing my max of 165lbs, I realize I'm never going to be heavily muscled.

.........and so you need other things and principals and techs and methods..................

And I'm all in favor of incorporating other things into your training. But, I also don't want to overlook the obvious. Everyone has a body. That body can be made stronger. Being strong gives you an advantage. Its not the end all be all solution, but there is no such solution. Its just a piece of the puzzle, and its importance differs from person to person.

Mark

[blooming tianshi lotus]

I was going to actually let this go, but I realised during last weekends workouts that is phyisiologically impossible to have the same rom as smaller endurance athletes on excessive mass........


Pending your art and prupose and height and build and experience and so on, each will have a place.

I also think there's something in feeding diffrent muscle fibres and as far as hate goes I do not although when I train and study as hard as I do more often than not at the expense of all of things others don't pay with and then have them try to talk at me with misinformations and flash their stupid title belts at me,or put on family law court trial for totally unrelated issues then yah........... my mood tends to suffer.

Btw : what about the one inch punch sending bunches of ppl feet fwd from a 63 kger.................. or fajing through rom as opopsed to delt driven masacre ( in lack of block techs ) ..........what about a big bok choy that doesn't land anywhere .........

It's another school of traditional thought.......... but imo , you are wrong!! It's skill ( including pressure points ) and not size that matters more. Then it's chi and fajing & technique , then it's endurance and speed, and lastly it's strength ( ugggg hhhh) ....................... small ppl have defended themselves better for thousands of yrs.................


bring some science into it aswell and why on earth would I believe you then???? I understand your position ................I just don't buy it and my ownexperience confirms it. Sorry.......size is not always pertainnent.

cheers anyway and happy thread resolution.

Bloominng lotus rising .

[juszczec]

I was going to actually let this go, but I realised during last weekends workouts that is phyisiologically impossible to have the same rom as smaller endurance athletes on excessive mass........

Impossible for whom? Larger non edurance athletes with smaller mass?

You find where your weaknesses are and you work to improve them.

Don't like your rom? Perform drills to increase it.

If the demands on your body don't require an extreme rom (ie if you are a wrestler, and you can't kick like someone who does TKD, so what?) then its all good.

Pending your art and prupose and height and build and experience and so on, each will have a place.

I'd rather say needs than art, but that's just personal preference.

I also think there's something in feeding diffrent muscle fibres

I thought muscle was muscle (fast twitch and slow twitch differences noted). I thought the only way to feed them was to get more blood to them. I understand your diet has a direct impact on what that blood carries to the muscles and certain nutrients promote different reactions.

and as far as hate goes I do not although when I train and study as hard as I do more often than not at the expense of all of things others don't pay with and then have them try to talk at me with misinformations and flash their stupid title belts at me,or put on family law court trial for totally unrelated issues then yah........... my mood tends to suffer.

So, you disagree with me because I haven't suffered and sacrificed as you have? In other words, what I say is of lesser value because of the ways I've attained the experience?

Hell of a mind reading act you've got there BTL Seriously, explain my sacrifice, suffering and experience to me - I'm curious as to what you think you know about me.

And maybe we should listen to the crew with titles and so on. Depending on the competition venue, they may have had to train in such a fashion that they may have *gasp* something interesting to say from which we may *gasp* learn!

Not all knowledge comes from a shaven headed Chinese monk from a little town in China.

Btw : what about the one inch punch sending bunches of ppl feet fwd from a 63 kger..................

What about it? IMNSHO, nothing more magical than proper body dynamics - which is pretty magical in and of itself.

I'm a big fan of proper body dynamics. At 165lbs and being born without the genetics to build lots of muscle without an inordinate amount of effort, proper body dynamics is incredibly important to me.

Correct body dynamics is another advantage. But we are talking about strength and size as an advantage.

or fajing through rom as opopsed to delt driven masacre ( in lack of block techs )

I'm a karate guy. I wouldn't know fajing if it hit me. Can you explain the term?

..........what about a big bok choy that doesn't land anywhere .........

I'm not trying to be a smart ass - I thought bok choy was a kind of tastless celery found in Chinese cooking?

It's another school of traditional thought.......... but imo , you are wrong!!

Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way

It's skill ( including pressure points ) and not size that matters more. Then it's chi and fajing & technique , then it's endurance and speed, and lastly it's strength ( ugggg hhhh)

Yes, these are all advantages and I'm not trying to order them by importance.

I will say that methods for increasing strength and endurance are easily accessible to all and therefore its kind of stupid to ignore them.

The rest require specialized instruction you may or may not have access to.

Also, depending on the person speaking, you might want to be very careful about pressure points. Dillman may tell me that smacking Gall Bladder 42 at High Noon on a sunless afternoon the day after a full moon may cause my opponent's pancreas to explode - but fat lot of good it'll do me if I can't remember all that.

....................... small ppl have defended themselves better for thousands of yrs.................

Haven't seen those statistics.

I will say that being small is NOT a one way ticket to defeat, the hospital or death when attacked by someone larger.

bring some science into it aswell and why on earth would I believe you then????

Please, quote some science.

I understand your position ................

I don't think you do, because:

Sorry.......size is not always pertainnent.

And I haven't said it was. I said it was an advantage. I also said there are lots of advantages. I also said one person's advantage(s) can cancel out another person's advantage(s).

All I say about size and strength is, the methods for increasing them are so well known and so widely available, it seems kind of foolish to ignore them.

cheers anyway and happy thread resolution.

Nothing's been resolved. But thats ok, nothing has to be. I do think you misunderstand what I'm saying - but in the end, as long as we both get what we want out of our training, it doesn't matter.

Mark

[flow]

Small people defend themselves better?I don't think so.
Heavy builded people defend themselves better?I don't think so.
Ultra hard trained and devoted martial scientists and practisioners,focusing on every aspect of fighting necessary skills,who can see "the whole body-mind- as one fist" and train for years without giving up,defend themselves better?
YES!

Dudes we all agree and i think this thread has to stop because:
"Nothing's been resolved. But thats ok, nothing has to be. I do think you misunderstand what I'm saying - but in the end, as long as we both get what we want out of our training, it doesn't matter."

and also:"Pending your art and prupose and height and build and experience and so on, each will have a place."

I just want to remember that i opened this thread to learn some good strenght exercises,which was a personnal request that i needed to dig(and with adding all that i learnt here to my routine i increased my punch,it's obvious).I didn't mean to create a conflict between different body types,therefore we all know that we have to do with what we can have(I like this kind of simplicity lol).

Thank you all for beeing so enthousiastics,thanks for the advices.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

No....... smaller ppl do not neccessarily dfefend themselves any better or worse ! I do believe in anomolies and exceptions and individuality of prowess and skill and knowledge etc , and think generalisations are something foolish ppl do to sell themself short with . .............

[ Jusczec]Impossible for whom? Larger non edurance athletes with smaller mass?

You find where your weaknesses are and you work to improve them.

Don't like your rom? Perform drills to increase it.

I'm tiny and flexible as hell!!! I love my rom............. !!!!????




If the demands on your body don't require an extreme rom (ie if you are a wrestler, and you can't kick like someone who does TKD, so what?) then its all good.



I'd rather say needs than art, but that's just personal preference.



I thought muscle was muscle (fast twitch and slow twitch differences noted). I thought the only way to feed them was to get more blood to them. I understand your diet has a direct impact on what that blood carries to the muscles and certain nutrients promote different reactions.

My tangent with this is that while many larger maers and other athletes have shown a "good" flexibilty and rom at larger muscle mass, the fact of the thing is that to facilitate hypertrophy ( muscle growth ) it requires a certain amount
of complex cabs ......... those carbs accumulate sugars in our joints and effect the joint viscosity and respective flexibilty . In enduro workouts as predominant training ,. and on a mostly protein for energy diet regime, the sugars are minimalised and the enduro / flexibilty capacities increased. Nothing replaces skill and tech and speed...but it doesn't hurt to 100 % vigilant of what works how neither.


So, you disagree with me because I haven't suffered and sacrificed as you have? In other words, what I say is of lesser value because of the ways I've attained the experience?

Hell of a mind reading act you've got there BTL Seriously, explain my sacrifice, suffering and experience to me - I'm curious as to what you think you know about me.


Stop interperating that way okay!!! I don't want to play like that today and fyi , I'm actually prepping some pms on the same lines (of peace and empty vessels and the differences and what exactly I do think I know of you all) and if you're lucky, someone will post it or pm it out to you too ...... now that's imho, the thread we've really needed lately!!!! You're judgements are ungenerous, idolistic and unrealistic........... Careful jumping to thowse conlclusions btw : the fall can be bugger if you miss the jump!!!!!


And maybe we should listen to the crew with titles and so on. Depending on the competition venue, they may have had to train in such a fashion that they may have *gasp* something interesting to say from which we may *gasp* learn!

Not all knowledge comes from a shaven headed Chinese monk from a little town in China.



What about it? IMNSHO, nothing more magical than proper body dynamics - which is pretty magical in and of itself.

I'm a big fan of proper body dynamics. At 165lbs and being born without the genetics to build lots of muscle without an inordinate amount of effort, proper body dynamics is incredibly important to me.

Correct body dynamics is another advantage. But we are talking about strength and size as an advantage.



I'm a karate guy. I wouldn't know fajing if it hit me. Can you explain the term?



I'm not trying to be a smart ass - I thought bok choy was a kind of tastless celery found in Chinese cooking?



Well, I'm glad we got that out of the way



Yes, these are all advantages and I'm not trying to order them by importance.

I will say that methods for increasing strength and endurance are easily accessible to all and therefore its kind of stupid to ignore them.

The rest require specialized instruction you may or may not have access to.

Also, depending on the person speaking, you might want to be very careful about pressure points. Dillman may tell me that smacking Gall Bladder 42 at High Noon on a sunless afternoon the day after a full moon may cause my opponent's pancreas to explode - but fat lot of good it'll do me if I can't remember all that.



Haven't seen those statistics.

I will say that being small is NOT a one way ticket to defeat, the hospital or death when attacked by someone larger.



Please, quote some science.



I don't think you do, because:



And I haven't said it was. I said it was an advantage. I also said there are lots of advantages. I also said one person's advantage(s) can cancel out another person's advantage(s).

All I say about size and strength is, the methods for increasing them are so well known and so widely available, it seems kind of foolish to ignore them.



Nothing's been resolved. But thats ok, nothing has to be. I do think you misunderstand what I'm saying - but in the end, as long as we both get what we want out of our training, it doesn't matter.

Mark[/QUOTE]

[Maestro]

lotus, shut up. are you ****ing serious? smaller people are at a huge disadvantage to larger people, period. when you add in skills and both have skills, the smaller person is again at a disadvantage

why the **** do you think men fight wars, all throughout history. if size didnt matter why the **** wouldnt women be trained the same way?

you wanna act like size isnt a huge factor, thats your crazy fantasy.

the fact of the matter is theres a BIG reason women never fight men competitively, geee i wonder what the **** that could be? no it possibly couldnt be there ****ing size and strength..no never that

get ****ing real lady, you sound like a crack head when you write

[zachsan]

the wahnam guys were more interesting than this.

[blooming tianshi lotus]

Well christ then Maestro!!

..........If you have nothing real to add, go ahead and feel free to just make some stuff up then ! ............


Women have been fighting wars ( because they had to or die when it visited their homes and towns ) during fuedal China for thousands of yrs. They used gongfu to do it, they fought against the various armies etc who were bigger because they actually got fed , and alot of them ( and women all over the Asias in the same era ) btw were reknowned for their martial prowesses ....... haven't you seen HERO!!! ?????

On top of that. I'm tiny myself okay. nbearly everyone I meet is bigger than I am ( except the skinny flimsy chicks you either want to feed or hug or counsel or something ) and I am still looking for the competition. I know that sounds arrogant , but I loooove sparring the bigger boys! It's good to know how best to do that and how to practice balance to absorb what they deliver ( if I don't beat them to a defence - which very quietly doesn't really happen much ) which I put down to qi gong training and satori honing ......... as in testing how these bigger players play and how fast they're likely to try to do it.

I've done this a few times lately in various gyms and funnily enough, have been negotiating with another world standard gym and martial centre for a new p/t - ma intructor gig ( though how far we get on it is likely a whole other story ).
I've also been stirring chats on other boards ( ) about te same thing. Considering alot of the heavier weights are either over muscled or have high bf% and quite clearly comprimise aspects of their health and fitness, it's no surprise that they shouldn't be totally unstoppable.

I also spoke to some boys running a world title event ( dojoko international combat world title ) about competiting myself, but apparently only two or three women of all the nations even put their hands up......... I also spoke to him about cross - gender fights ( and yaah .the trannies can play too ) , but apparently no -one's ever raised it before and in Melbourne Victoria , Aust , where it's being held, there are some funny laws and regs and stuff to negotiate on . He was kjeen enough though and I am going to continue chatting with them on it over the nxt however long. maybe by nxt yr we women can actually get a shot at them ( or each other ) ourselves...... Considering women are even training alot of them in various facets , ( and possibley myself shortly adding to that list ) , and on a serious note, considering what I know about the way some of them in that comp ( doing well after round btw ) are doing in training etc, I want a shot .
That's why I've pissed off lately I guess! Good competition is hard to come by ............. Ah well.......... I'll just harrass some folks for a while and look fwd to nxt yr then !

lol............. someone's got to do it .................

cheers

Blooming tianshi

[LeiYunFat]

Well christ then Maestro!!

..........If you have nothing real to add, go ahead and feel free to just make some stuff up then ! ............


Women have been fighting wars ( because they had to or die when it visited their homes and towns ) during fuedal China for thousands of yrs. They used gongfu to do it, they fought against the various armies etc who were bigger because they actually got fed , and alot of them ( and women all over the Asias in the same era ) btw were reknowned for their martial prowesses ....... haven't you seen HERO!!! ?????
=

You were talking about Hero? I thought you were talking about Mulan. But seriously. You can't base your thoughts on gender and fighting on a movie. Especially a kung fu movie. Everyone knows kung fu in the movies...haven't you seen Kung-Fu Hustle?

[Maestro]

yea lotus, im sure alexander the great, ghengis khan, napolean and caesar all had their women right in the front lines, along with the short ass skinny muther ****ers, im sure they were a ferocious sight to behold