Cutting glass with bare fingers (Huang Aguilar)

[doc]

Dear Doc,

actually the new site is only 1 month old, that is why it is still on concept. Huang Aguilar himself does every single site that you see there.

The site is one month old, and it has almost six million visitors already?

LOL, having run a website for twelve years, I can tell you how that happened. (Change the counter...)

This goes along with one other thing I notice on the site, something which sticks out really badly. Everywhere you go, it's a tribute to Huang. Pictures of Huang with this monk, with that monk, doing this amazing stunt, doing that awesome thing. It's a Woody Allen Zelig fest.

The term that comes to mind when I look at this site, is self-aggrandizement.

A definition: The act or practice of enhancing or exaggerating one's own importance, power, or reputation.

Behavior commonly found in insecure people, people who want to prove or sell something, or people who are involved in cult like behavior (from the cult thread: "Use of deceptive recruitment techniques that include false information about the group's doctrinal beliefs and cover-ups of negative episodes in the group's history") to further the cult's procurement of individuals.


I'm not saying that Huang is running a cult. Don't get me wrong. I am just providing information. I expect people to question. Then investigate. Evaluate. And eventually make their own decisions.

You expect that from intelligent people.

[liutangsanzang]

Om tare tutare ture soha

Sorri, mai i ask a few question.

Whi senor aguilar chose to teach in Euskadi and not Spain? Whi do u call it Spain? What is position on the problem between euskadi and spain, state terrorism, torture, isolation of terrorists in jail?

I understand as onli being a wai to end the suffering of everi being.

Is senor Aguilar vegetarian? What is position on meat eating, animal rights, animal experimentation?

What is position on the recent killings in gaza？On state terrorism in general? On afghanistan? On Irak?

Excuse me if these questions r not well asked but think thei r a few important one in considering what is budism is...

thanks for u considering them

Peace and love 4 animal ghost

om a hung benza guru pema siddhi hung

[LFJ]

thats exactly what i was getting at, doc. if only i knew of that thread i would have linked earlier.

basically then, master aguilar cannot be called an abbot of a buddhist monastery, because he made his own thing up. claiming to teach a "pure" and "uncontaminated" form of buddhism is cult-like behavior.

its exactly what li hongzhi, founder of falun dafa, says he teaches- some sort of "greater dharma" (dafa).

there are many known buddhist-like cults. here is a link to some: http://www.buddhismaustralia.org/cults.htm

here is a link to another: http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/

like master aguilar, most of them have never had full ordination in any authentic buddhist tradition. although some have, and became corrupted.

master aguilar, on the other hand, has not taken full ordination. despite the claim, his ordination cannot be proven.

therefore, claiming abbocy of a buddhist monastery and teaching a completely new and "pure" form of buddhism ranks him with the other buddhist-like cults.

[doc]

Why is he an abbot then? Well he founded this monastery, he founded this "new way" (i hope you understand now better what i mean by it) and the students in this monastery don't follow the teachings of any buddhist community but follow his teachings.

One of my very favorite threads:

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2622

Damn, it was a good one. Educational. Truly educational.

[doc]

That's right You follow a 74 old erotic-actor with platic tits and plastic lips and plastic titles, and i follow a Martial Arts and Buddhist Master who does extraordinary things,

I don't follow her. I'm friends with her.

But, since when you're so interested, I could arrange for you to meet her.

From what I'm told, she has done extraordinary things too...

[German Delegation MBOT]

Well acutally i answered these questions, but since my english is not enough it may be the case that i wasn't clear enough on some points. So i will try to repeat it a little more concretely.

I did not say that this monastery is a complete new invention. Of course i said it was a new step, but the knowledge that is taught inside of this monastery is an accumulation of many different things, which of course are not completely new. Maybe only in this combination of knowledge and in this density it is somethign that wasn't there before. I said that the intention of this monastery was to recreate the original knowledge, completely uncontaminated by any categories and beliefs that the various cultures put inside. This kind of task is of course extremly difficult and requires and extremly deep knowledge in culture, theology, religion, anthropology, history etc. That is what the founder of this monastery studied these disciplines all his life, in many countries all over the world.

What i mean by contamination is pretty easy to understand. That is a term, which is very common in religious science (if it is well translated, i only know it in german) and is one of the main issues in prooving the authenticy of a religous transmission.

All buddhists refer to scriptures, texts or sutras, when they speak about the buddhas intention or damo's intention. Sometimes they follow these guidelines so strictly, that they forget, that these scriptures weren't written down by Buddha or Damo himself, but by monsteries, religious groups or buddhist sects, that like in any other religion put their interpretation, schemes and structures into the texts. The same happened in Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc...that is an anthropological fact. For example the bible was put together several decades after Jesus has supposedly lived. It was not written down by him, not even by his students, but by people who lived sometimes more than 100 years after him.

Atheist and enemies of religion argue, that this is the reason, why religion is absulete in it self. If the transmission are made by men, that had no direct contact with the founder, than nothing is safe. The rumour problem multiplies it: Some drunk lunatic invents a crazy story, a rumour, and a few years after that i maybe be widely know as: "Jesus walking over water". In case there are some Christians here: Don't get me wrong, i am not trying to say that all the bible says is made up. This was just a made up and very simple example of cultural influence over the years: contamination.

But if you study very deeply and by study i do not mean reading the texts but also comparing the different cultures and trying to find the root of these particular terms and those particular beliefs, going to the countries and seeing the rites, ceremonies, etc speaking with actual believers, theologist, scientists and normal people, comparing different styles of buddhism and trying to find the intersection, etc etc you may eventually get closer to the original knowledge. Only of course if have enough knowledge, time and experience to put the pieces together. In Christianity many people repeatedly tried that, for example Luther, whom i mentioned above, claimed to do exactly this kind of study.

That is in the end what damo wanted. He saw that all the monks around him, were blindly reciting sutras but not really working an themselves, not really putting the knowledge into action, not doing. That is why he punched on the table (that is a german expression, i dont know if it makes sense in english, but i didnt find anything else fitting, sorry ) and said stop. He was a reformer who wanted to go back to the roots of the knowledge and therefor he called all sutras, books etc obsolete. The funny thing is that even about that there is a scripture written (not by him of course) in which he is supposed to say things like: "Budhhas don't recite sutras. Buddhas don't keep precepts. And Buddhas dont break recepts. Buddhas dont keep or break anything. Buddhas dont do good or evil.". No Categories.......Even more: "If you dont see your nature, invoking buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings and keeping precepts are all useless.".

That is why Zen or chan is so bound to actual practise, to meditating or working or even music or martial arts. The singing, praying or actual memorizing of texts and structures doesn't count nothing for Zen. They are happy if you know that stuff, but they will tell you that on the way to enlightment this is less then nothing, it maybe even contraproductive...if you loose yourself in it and forget, who to really work on your nature then you are lost, and most likely cannot come back...

well since we are in the forum i can only speak so shortly and schematicly...but i think you get my point...Its like the following question: If you were a good Zen-buddhist, meaning that you found humanity in yourself, understood that the concept of you is nothing, etc etc and you are close to enlightment or have even reached it. Do you think Buddha would get out of his grave to kill you, only because you did not care about titles like Bhikkhu or in any ordinations etc? Well i think not...I think he did not give a damn about this stuff. And if any scripture tells another thing, it is because the people who wrote it down, cared about that stuff, because the wanted to instiuotionalize, instrumentalize or even gain power. But this is of course my personal opinion. anybody may answer this question to his gusto...

Why is he an abbot then? Well he founded this monastery, he founded this "new way" (i hope you understand now better what i mean by it) and the students in this monastery don't follow the teachings of any buddhist community but follow his teachings. That is why he is the founder and abbot of this temple. And lets not forget, that abbot is not a buddhist term, it is a normal european word for the head of a monastery, usual in any religion, even in Christianity. If he wanted to use the usual buddhist terms, he could have said Sitaigung or something like that.

So when we speak about a Zen-Monastery or about Shaolin, or Qi Gong, we are on the one hand very careful to point out, that the things that we teach are very different from the things that are known by that name in actual reality, especially when it comes to modern shaolin, from which we are eagerly seperated. but on the other hand we stay on the position that this is the actual knowledge, or an recreation as far as possible from the original teachings. That is why we dont call it "bimbam kung fu" but "Shaolin".

This is why this monastey doesn't bother to speak about the terms that "they" use, to proove any ordinations, or preceptors or witnesses, because like maestro already pointed out: This all is nothing. There are places in Shaolin were you can buy stuff like that for a few dollars. and even if Shaolin weren't so corrupt these days, it would still be nothing, because it is no step in knowledge. I know that he was ordinated to me because i saw the papers and spoke to the masters myself even if it doesnt matter a dime. I dont have them here of course, but even if i had i wouldn't send you them, because it just isnt enough. This is as stupid as if some of you would ask me to take the black belt of my master, scan it and send you a picture of it. It doesnt change anything. The knowledge and teachings inside is that what is important.

I hope i got a little bit closer to the answers of your questions...I did not understand the first question though...you asked me how i felt about the monastery not beeing connected to shaolin etc...do you mean my personal feeling? I feel very good about it, because in my eyes and my experience it is the only way to stay true to the knowledge and the only way to work decently and straightforward. If this monastery would be a normal, officially recognized delegation of shaolin henan, i would definetely not be part of it...

[onesp1ng]

these were my the questions i disn't feel you adressed yet.

may i ask how you feel (your monastary has) no connection with shaolin, china, buddhist directions, and so on?

how do you see your monastary and study of zen to be separated from eastern terms when it uses eastern terms to represent and define itself?

if it's philosophically different, what is the point of being an abbot?

and, what kind of ordination process did your teacher go through? does he have preceptors, three teachers, seven witnesses, etc? if not, what are the requirements in your monastary?

thanks.

[German Delegation MBOT]

Actually i did intent to answer your questions too, even without directly referring to them. if something is unclear, please tell me again...

[onesp1ng]

so why don't you answer my questions?

[German Delegation MBOT]

Dear Doc,

actually the new site is only 1 month old, that is why it is still on concept. Huang Aguilar himself does every single site that you see there. All design, every picture and every text comes from him directly. It is a huge amount of work, that is why some parts are not finished. The thing with the music is not meant to stay long either. It is more a test of integrated video on the site.

You still did not tell me anything about the 1989-claimers...

That's right You follow a 74 old erotic-actor with platic tits and plastic lips and plastic titles, and i follow a Martial Arts and Buddhist Master who does extraordinary things, teaches in an extraordinary way and in my view understands more about life than many people on this planet. Let's see who gets there first doc

[LFJ]

P.S. to LFJ: Since you quote my words, but ignore the content (such as my statement, that he was indeed ordinated in shaolin), i am going to do the same with your post Nothing personal...

i actually did respond to that.

i said if this is fact, that he was fully ordained (in shaolin of all places), then you should be able to name his preceptors, three teachers and seven witnesses. should be stamped on his certificate of ordination.

you have repeatedly failed to show any proof of his bhikshu ordination.

several pictures with monks doesnt cut it. even if he took secular discipleship under them, it still doesnt cut it for the right to abbocy of a buddhist monastery.

[doc]

Site says 1999. But I can't tell for sure; I can't stand keeping the site open long enough to decipher the Spanish because of the irritating music.

How oldi is Huang now?

Dyanne is about 74; I know you wanted to know. Still getting breast and facial surgery, still promoting herself as a doctor of this and that...

[German Delegation MBOT]

Sorry doc,

when i tried to answer to your last post, your server seemed to be out of service so that only this one link of my answer got through.

What i was trying to ask was:

You said you heard the 1989-claim from many people. I am interested in that. Any Examples i could look up?

About Huang Aguilars 1989 time of training in Shaolin; In the following pages you see pictures from 1990 in which Huang Aguilar, Shi De Yu and Kang Tzi Ming are shown. This is from a group of seminars in Portugal which Huang Aguilar initiated. He invited De Yu and Kang Tzi Ming to Portugal, since he knew them very well from his year before, when he stayed there, training with them. They got good friends and worked together several times:

http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/cast/fundador/funshao06.html

http://www.shaolinmonastery.org/cast/fundador/funshao13.html

About Dyanne: Ummmmm.....whatever...

P.S. to LFJ: Since you quote my words, but ignore the content (such as my statement, that he was indeed ordinated in shaolin), i am going to do the same with your post Nothing personal...

[doc]

Hey German, read this (a few posts down, the post with the images attached):

http://www.russbo.org/vb/showthread.php?t=2188&highlight=dyanne

There is a wikipedia entry on Dyanne Thorne, which describes her getting a PhD in Comparative Religions, which is utter bullshit, but it's on the famed and widely accepted Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyanne_Thorne

People call themselves things all the time. Personally, I have nothing against it, so long as the public is not harmed. I find it entertaining, and we've seen this behavior far too many times before. I've learned long ago, especially in the world of martial arts, that followers need their leaders, that people need "the myth". They search it out, they find it because there are others who recognize this demand and provide it.

However, I find Dyanne more interesting than Huang. But, that's my personal opinion.

[LFJ]

Buddha or Damo never talked about Bikkhu-Ordination or Abbocy-Rules.

are you serious?

the buddha called his teachings the "doctrine and discipline", or "dharma-vinaya". its two part- vinaya being the monastic codes.

you have now given away your lack of knowledge in buddhism.

It is clear to see, that you still think in regular schemes which are predetermined by cultural interpretations of Zen.

actually the monastic codes and requirements for ordination were set out by shakyamuni buddha.

Master Aguilar has a full ordination i never said anything else.

if this is fact, then his preceptors, three teachers and seven witnesses should be easily provided.

Also I said was, that it doesn't matter for this monastery, that this is something different from the monasteries you know and therefor doesn't fit in your schemes and preconditions about what or what is not a real monastery.

the monasteries i know are buddhist monasteries which follow the guidelines set out in the vinaya by the buddha, shakyamuni. without meeting those requirements the monastery cannot be a valid buddhist monastery in any sense.

This is why I am not even going to start about such things. If you want to speak about the source of his knowledge, i am fine with that, I'll even speak with you about his masters but don't attach me to any terms and structures, of which somebody wants them to be the rules and standards for everybody.

because he has no monastic training, nor full ordination to speak of? he may have knowledge and a source for it, but without these he cannot be an abbot (a term both he and you use).

You are speakin of Buddhism as if it was Christianity: If somebody wants to open a church, he has to be a bishop etc..

you apparently have no experience of how buddhist monasticism works.

if master aguilar wants to open a monastery and be an abbot without full ordination, this is not a valid buddhist monastery nor tradition.

It represents a new way of Buddhism, a new, pure and clean version of Chan/Zen and therefor doesn't deal with any Chinese, Japanes, Indian, Pali or Sanskrit terms

"buddhist monastery" and "abbot" are both buddhist terms which have structures and regulations to them in buddhist context. one cannot discard the requirements and use them as they please, elsewise it is not buddhism-

however inline with the dharma your philosophy may be.. in case you missed it, the buddha's teachings are called dharma-vinaya. one cannot discard the vinaya and still claim abbocy and have a valid buddhist monastery.

without vinaya, at most, there can be dharma understanding and teaching at a center, where master aguilar is the director, as i suggested. but there can be no ordination, no abbocy and no monastery.

Take Luther for example, even if this is a big scaled one, but i think everybody should be knowing what i am talking about: The things that he did were impossible for catholic terms and structure. In the eyes of the ruling force (catholic church), he was committing something "invalid" as you call it. In their eyes he could not open a new church with very different ideas and philosophy.

the problem is, master aguilar is still claiming abbocy without full ordination and runs a monastery without monastic training as a fully ordained monk.

he's more than welcome to run his own show, but when you throw out the requirements for abbocy and running a monastery, you can no longer call it buddhist tradition. it is something else.

It is just an example to point out a reformistic movement which is different to the ruling force (existing buddhist communities).

the "ruling force" is the monastic code as stipulated by the buddha. if this is not followed then it is not "buddhism". you cannot claim "abbocy" or have a "buddhist monastery".

And again: Assuming that every Buddhist way on this planet must fit the requirements of the Asian Buddhist Community, is in itself racist.

no one said so.

And you can try to talk you out of it but it stays like this: The terms that you are talking about have been created from Asian Leaders and are a characteristic of the Asian Buddhism. Surely Delegations of these Asian Monasteries, use the same terms in the Occident. But this monastery is not. It is a new step, having nothing to do with these Eastern terms. But I am repeating myself for the third time...

this is incorrect. it is not a question of terms, it is a question of upholding the vinaya, or having ever taken full ordination required for the abbocy and monastery which master aguilar claims.

the terms abbocy and buddhist monastery may refer to different traditions practiced all over the world, but their requirements were set out by the buddha. following something other than what the buddha set out for monastic codes of his monks in a "monastery" is not buddhism.

hopefully with all the repetition this is clear now.

i suggest you do more study of the buddha's teachings, in particular look into the vinaya- pratimoksha precepts, etc..