Wong Kiew Kit

[juszczec]

Re: respect

Hi folks

All this title nonsense has been done to death in karate. We have Sensei and Dai Sensei and O'Sensei and Kyoshi and Hanshi and people claiming Menkyo Kaiden and Master and Grand Master and Great Grand Master and on and on and on.

See this? This is your future. You ain't seen nothin yet.

Originally posted by bhodi
Respect is a big deal

No its not. Well, it shouldn't be. Why should we make it harder on ourselves? Why is an "extra" level of respect needed to interact with someone you are paying to provide a service? Why is an "extra" level of respect needed at all. Be polite according to the local cultural rules.

Respect is a big deal in a master /disciple relationship and if this is not something that you feel then I would suggest that you are not in one...in which case the signs of it existing in your situation (like calling someone Master) are a farse and do nothing positive for anyone involved.

In the West, respect in MA has become the student playing the game established by the teacher in order to get training. The current situation is ripe for misuse and abuse (as has been demonstrated for years). It gets us (those on the receiving and giving ends) nothing. And when you see yourself changing clothes, working out and being required to use titles - its silly.

Its the equivalent of putting on armor and calling each other Sir Knight.

Now that I've pissed everyone off, I'll get to the point.

Since MA titles have become meaningless, isn't arguing over who should or should not use one also meaningless? I have no idea of Dan Hartwright's ability and I couldn't judge what honorific is required by his skill. Let those who can worry about it. If there's anything to worry about at all.

Mark

[bhodi]

is there a buddha in this world.....No.

If respect is just following orders than that is all it is. But what I am suggesting is that there are deeper levels to the word. your average kung fu, tai Kwon Do or karate class is alot different from training under a Shaolin Chan Master. Respect is more than just following someones orders or bowing or any of that.

I am trying to take it above the level of a discussion about Wahnam, WKK and DH (Dan Hartwright).

Respect doesn't have to be important as long as you don't want to think about things and you don't want to live your life deeply. But these traditions like bowing and salutes and whatnot sprang from something. Somewhere people stopped transmitting the concepts and now we just have traditions that are uprooted and really have very little significance except it makes people feel like they are in the know, a part of the club.

That is not what these signifiers (bowing and titles and all the rest) are really about.

Amitabha!
peace
Bhodi

[arhat]

Mark...

In CMAs the titles are not yet meaningless. But it is starting. You seem to bemoan the current state of the Japanese arts as far as titles and ranks, and make mention of this as our future. Surely (and I don't mean to call you Shirley) you can see why some of us, to whom these titles do still carry meanings, might be put off by the start of the process which resulted in the bastardization and empty rank meanings of the Japanese and Korean styles.

Perhaps we have no choice in the matter and it is out of our hands...obviously as gong fu gets more and more popular, then there will be more and more 'sifus' like "master" Dan Hartwright. People who are not masters being called masters. Things must have changed very quickly in the other asian martial art circles, because even in my self defense dojo many many years ago, although there were lots of teachers and instructors, there was only ONE sensei. But now, there are blackbelts in the 6th grade.

Can education combat greed, lies, and ego? Well, only time will tell I guess...

[Maestro]

ring a ding dong

tralalalalalalalalalalalalalalala

change is the only constant, nothing good or bad lasts for long..

cope with change and you to can be happy with situations such as these..its the only way...

a better way of putting it..

shit happens

[Lipster]

I'm a bit late here, but time for my two cents now. I'm not talking to anyone in particular...

God knows I could write a whole load but as everyone says this has been done to death. It's just pretty difficult to read all this and say nothing. And hell, this is fun.


I think Wahnam being a cult is going a bit far.

Unlike Woody says, I don't think I'm blinded to rational rhetoric from the other side, I've simply lost faith in there being any in their words that I can relate to. So based on past experience, my immediate response is to take anything they say with a pinch of salt. Add the fact that they were constantly downright insulting, you shouldn’t expect anyone to sing their praises.

I'm not really concerned with the gong fu side of WKK. I'm stumped as to how any semi-competent fighter could believe that the gong fu on the video could be used to handle the best of the best 'like children'. Just stumped. If someone walked in the room and said that there are no tables, they don't actually exist and never did. What do you answer to a guy like that? Do you actually spend your time trying to pursuade him that there is? I'd leave that to the experts. There's no point in prattling on about the bad points of the stuff on the vid; if you can't see them immediately then forget it.


My conception of ch'an gong fu is one of a spiritual discipline. If you don't give a fig for spirituality or the quality of character of one's master then I guess WKK would be fine for you - quality of gong fu aside. In that case the nature of ones teacher doesn't really matter any more then a swimming instructor. This whole debate is for those for whom gong fu is more then just a physical pastime or achievement. To still hold WKK in the light of a Buddhist master after some of his literature and the threads here - I would dearly like to hear a logical rationalisation for this.


I love this:

In the east, it is customary for the teacher to arrive last and leave first. Interestingly, it is often the reverse in the west. The teacher, western in culture if not in race, often arrives the earliest, sweeps the floor and prepares cookies and drinks which he will serve during recess to his students, who will joke and laugh. At the end of the class, the teacher will stand at the door, shake the students' hands and thank them for their attendance. He will then throw away the garbage his students have left behind if he still has energy left, and check that everyone has gone home before he closes the door.

ROFL. That’s not an example of irrational bias? What sort of pathetic anti-western propaganda is that? This is what I’m saying. Their ‘opinions’ are based on irrationality, and facts don’t really come into it. I'd love to find out where this guy went to school, I'll send my kids there for a good pampering. And you're telling me this guy's not a nut?

The rest of my opinions on this matter have been gone through a hundred times – they’re basically a mishmash of Cheye, Vince, Doc, Arhat, Bodhi and Wood's views.

This topic never ceases to entertain.

Lol, and I can see Doc's trying to protect himself from any slander prosecution....

[kungfudork]

just another view

I visited HeJingDe's school in LA a few months ago, and found that all of his students just call him coach. I know he teaches contemporary wushu, but this concept should be the same i would think......maybe i am mistaken. Apparently this is the same concept held at the sports colleges in china. Even JetLi's famous teacher is only know as coach WuBin. There is a big difference between teaching martial arts and developing a master/student relationship. I feel the word Shifu does hold meaning, it isn't just a word.

I help teach classes with Shifu Shi Xing Hao in houston and i would never let anyone call me Shifu. A few times in the kids classes they've called me ShaoShifu(little master), but i quickly corrected them, and said they could refer to me by my name. I have been training almost 3 years in houston and probably in the next 6-8 months i will have enough training to become what ShifuShiXingHao says is a coaches level. Basically, he becomes confident that he can rely on you to instruct others correctly............in no way does it mean you have mastered anything.....3 years is like just getting your feet wet, you've only scratched the surface.

I agree that if the word Shifu is just a word then you should be able to refer to the same person as "Teacher" so and so or "Coach" so and so without any problems.

my 2 cents( true value= .0001 cent),
kungfudork

[bhodi]

Hey Lipster

Amitabha!

Sorry I missed you on monday but i had to attend to some pressing matters at home and work.

Anyways I thought the doc slander angle was pretty funny as well. But is Doc responcible for what Maestro posts? How does that work Doc? Why so cautious about what Maestro posts about WKK and DH?

And WOW!!! The views are rapidly climbing to a thousand!

Peace,
Bhodi

[Lipster]

Amitabah Bodhi. NP

[doc]

Bhodi, is that bull a twin of Arhat's?
Or, a different view of the same bull?

Oh, no, personal copyright infringement....

[bhodi]

twin

Its funny you say that Doc. Everyone asks the same thing. Whenever we first meet someone they think we are twins but this baffles me because I think we look very different....

Sure we both have the same hair style!! But we are five years apart in age.

It took a long time to grow those hair horns.....and lets not talk about the amount of styling gel and hairspray......

For a while I didn't wallow in the mud just to create a very noticable difference between us. It was easy to tell who was who! Arhat was the muddy one and I was generally clean. But I soon went back to my mud frolicking and so we are back to the same predicament.

Maybe I should buy a fanny pack of some nature and always wear it!!! Then people could easily distinguish who was who!!! Besides, that would just be SO cool!

Oh, but I wouldn't want to offend any students of true fanny pack masters......

Well I will just have to think of something...

[juszczec]

Re: is there a buddha in this world.....No.

Originally posted by bhodi
your average kung fu, tai Kwon Do or karate class is alot different from training under a Shaolin Chan Master.

How?

Respect is more than just following someones orders or bowing or any of that.

Agreed. And it goes both ways. And I think the local cultural rules about respect are more meaningful to the students than making them adopt those foreign to them.

I am trying to take it above the level of a discussion about Wahnam, WKK and DH (Dan Hartwright).

And I'm trying to keep it related to this subject

My whole point is its pretty common for one organization to assign titles to its members that you may not feel are valid.

Since there are no hard and fast rules regarding who gets what title, there's nothing we can do about it. Title assignment is subjective. Everyone has their own "rules" by which the judge the recipient's worthiness. I do, you do and so does the rest of the world.

One man's "master" is another man's "beginner" is another man's "total idiot."

Respect doesn't have to be important as long as you don't want to think about things and you don't want to live your life deeply.

Here, we disagree. I think respect is necessary for people to interact. However, I think the rules of your culture are enough. Anything else is overkill.

But these traditions like bowing and salutes and whatnot sprang from something. Somewhere people stopped transmitting the concepts and now we just have traditions that are uprooted and really have very little significance except it makes people feel like they are in the know, a part of the club.

The traditions came from another culture and were developed hurdreds of years ago. People stopped transmitting the concepts because you can't learn these concepts without being brought up in that culture. That's what makes them so ripe for abuse. That's why they've degenerated to what you describe.

We have 2 choices. Either educate people as to Chinese culture from hundreds of years ago (good luck) or just get down to it and train.

Mark

[arhat]

Mark...

most of the deeper, root level concepts of Ch'an are universally applicable...that's one thing that makes it appealing- sure it has different flavors but Buddhism has spread from Nepal to India to China to Japan to the West- it has spread beyond it's original culture, just like gong fu has spread and other arts have spread- take the Shaolin bow that Bodhi mentions- one doesn't need a cultural filter to understand why we bow with one hand, or to gain a benefit from the story. To strip the bow of the story from which it sprang is a kind of robbery.

Over time a cultural perspective or understanding, that might increase one's understanding of the tradition, and one might not 'get it' at first, but most spiritually expressed truths are universal- like do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

When someone tells you they are a sensei, and they are 22 yrs old, I think you come to a different conclusion than say if that person were 72 and they say they are a sensei. Maybe this is my own baggage because those words still carry meaning. Even in my own culture, the word Master has not lost it's meaning- for example in the art world, if a 22 yr old apprentice of a recognized Master comes up to me and says that they are a Master painter, I will have difficulty believing them. Through their work they had better exhibit mastery, because if they do not, then they will be soundly trounced critically by those who ARE masters. In any case, gong fu, as far as I can tell, is not in the condition that many other asian martial arts is in. That word 'sifu' still carries some major significance in the gong fu culture/world- so if it is just kept internally, then fine, but it's not...it's out there...

[arhat]

by the way...

...it is obvious to any one with eyes that Bodhi and I look very different. Beyond just the obvious difference in hair horn sweep, Bodhi usually goes in for the birds. I rarely wear birds.

[bhodi]

Respect

Maybe I am not understanding your first question but....How is training at your average kung fu or Karate school different from training under a Shaolin Chan Master?

Really? You want me to explain this? Aside from the mission of the two being very different I could write forever about the differences inherent in the average kung fu school and training in a temple environment under a shaolin chan master. They are two completely different experiences. They require two completely different motivations for wanting to be there past a month or even a week. many times people come to the USA Shaolin Temple and when it is not just a kung fu school they leave. Shifu has told whole classes full of people as a general anouncement that if all they are concerned with is learning martial arts he could recomend some teachers for them and they should not be training in the temple. It is about much more than that. (this does not complicate things just because it is taken more seriously or because we look at things deeper, in fact I find the opposite to happen. It is liberating and makes everything alot easier.) Without going on and on here I think it is obvious that the two are different animals...

(Like lute listening pigs to mud wallowing water buffaloes)

As far as cultural customs having to do with respect.... I suggest that many people within our own culture do not understand the significance of the "polite" actions that they use every day to denote respect. It is much easier to understand these things after experincing a multicultural interaction. This causes a paradigm shift and makes it much easier to understand your own culture for what it really is. This is the crux of the multicultural education movement that is currently happening in the US and educators have been consciously moving towards since the late sixties. It used to be optional but now it is pretty much mandated that this kind of lesson plan be introduced in order to break down childrens egocentric circles of thought and make them more likely to succeed in a diverse society. Even if you were to take that student who had a multicultural education and put them back into a society comprised of one single cultural identity they would have a much clearer understanding of that culture than the average person.

I can relate to you a greek fable and the concept still remains intact. This is because we understand that a fable has a moral lesson and the story has no other purpose. But if people stopped understanding the lessons and just kept telling the story out of tradition we would have a problem similar to calling someone Shifu or sifu jkust because they instruct a student or class.

Organizations do tend to assign their own titles internally but that doesn't mean that there should not be a commonality between the titles distributed in like fields. Obviously doctors have a certain standard even though some doctors are better than others. Of course sometimes people fall through the cracks but for the most part we have standards that must be reached before a title is given. This works in many other disciplines and so why not in the martial arts? Because we don't expect it to? And so this is allright?

I appreciate that you are trying to keep this string on topic but I am staying on topic while elevating it to a higher level of the same conversation. I am trying to address the reasons why someone has a problem rather than talk about the problem over and over again. Besides to truly keep this string on target we would have to discuss wether or not WKK and DH are in a cult or not....

*************************
What I am saying is that someone can follow the rules of a culture (including their own) and still not understand the term respect very deeply. They caould say sir and thank you and mam and all the rest and hold the door open for grandma and wait for everyone to be served before eating but usually this is just trained behaviour and not the result of understanding respect.
***************************

As far as only being able to understand a concept because of the culture you were raised in ????I think that is nonsense. People can surely understand if they are taught! The problem is not many people are intrested in knowing or know at all, because just like in our culture people have certain behaviours, not because they have some understanding, but because it was taught to them....usually without any explanation. When so and so talks you say YEs Sifu! Or Yes Sir! Can your average person explain why? Ask them and then see how far their definition of respect goes. Most people probably will tell you that you do it out of respect but I assure you that they will have a shallow understanding of the word respect as compared with Thich Nhat Hanh or someone who is truly concerned with self mastery.

Peace,
Amitabha!
Bhodi

[juszczec]

Re: Mark...

Originally posted by arhat
In CMAs the titles are not yet meaningless. But it is starting.

I think the abuse is starting. I think they started on their way to "meaningless" when the first Western student started calling someone Sifu or Sigung etc having no reference to the culture from which they sprang.

You seem to bemoan the current state of the Japanese arts as far as titles and ranks, and make mention of this as our future. Surely (and I don't mean to call you Shirley) you can see why some of us, to whom these titles do still carry meanings, might be put off by the start of the process which resulted in the bastardization and empty rank meanings of the Japanese and Korean styles.

Shirley? Heck, you can call me whatever you want - I've been called worse by people who like me less than you do

Perhaps we have no choice in the matter and it is out of our hands...obviously as gong fu gets more and more popular, then there will be more and more 'sifus' like "master" Dan Hartwright. People who are not masters being called masters.

Ultimately, this will be a mixed blessing. Beginners and newcomers will probably get taken advantage of and gladly pay out lot of money for training based on the title.

However, it will force people with some experience to judge each other/themselves based on quality.

Things must have changed very quickly in the other asian martial art circles, because even in my self defense dojo many many years ago, although there were lots of teachers and instructors, there was only ONE sensei. But now, there are blackbelts in the 6th grade.

I got started in 1985 and the school rules were that anyone with a black belt was called "Sensei." I first noticed the change you speak of in the early 90's.

Where I'm at now, all black belts are called Mr, Mrs or Miss. There is only one "Sensei" and he likes to be called Mr.

Now if I can just get them to stop bowing to me

Can education combat greed, lies, and ego? Well, only time will tell I guess...

Educating the consumer will. Making the members of your organization stand on the merits of their skill and knowledge will.

At least some of the time.

Mark