Wong Kiew Kit

[Maestro]

chinese

makes no difference what they call him in chinese

hes labeled(as are others unworthy of the title) as "master dan hartwright"

all the time when something comes up that has to do with him

so..screw the chinese

its all to obvious what they want people to think of them

[shaolinstylee]

I bet that it is more than the count that is interesting.

As far as anyone being called sifu in the kung fu world... well I'm sure there are some that haven't even really studied all that much. That aside, I think it is a word that denotes a level attained and what the persons intent is with this level of knowledge and ability. To call someone sifu is to refer to them in a high regard, while also saying a lot about why. From what I understand, I don't know if Dan falls into the why you'd call someone sifu... The word means more than just being a kung fu teacher......imho....

Shixiong I think is the word to often forgotten at schools.... older brother.....
shihing in cantonese (?) anyhow, there are too many "sifus/sh'rfu/shifu" not enough shixiong/shihings....

[dave]

view count IS interesting doc - reminds me of the forum archive from back in the day

dave

[doc]

Maestro, you truly are a kick. And it's spelled smorgasbord. I think..... lol. I've got a case of stupiditis tonight for some reason, which, sorry to say, is far more curable than "youngassholitis". Hey, it's late.

I have one comment, and please don't take this wrong. But if "sifu" is just a meaningless word, why was it used so many, many times in that one post that I commented on previously? I commented on that for a reason, and not because of the grammar. I really got the impression that this whole concept of "respect" is really drilled into the Wahnamites students, (which is probably not far from the truth, considering the fact that they have a web page devoted to the subject), all based upon that one commentary with the overuse of "sifu".

Look, it's just a word, okay? He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that.

Nothing more significant or meaningful than that? Well, true. But it might be evidence of something else underlying. My query way back a few posts, when I first mentioned how the word "sifu" was used in every sentence, was meant to bring forth a concept other than "the word is used a lot". I really got the feeling that this concept of referring to the teacher with respect, as demonstrated by the use of this word, was a major issue. Otherwise, why would the word be used so much? Has anyone ever seen me refer to Decheng as "sifu", anywhere in the site? Hell, I respect him probably more than any other man I've ever known, but, I don't have to refer to him in this fashion to demonstrate it. It's just understood. It's not the use of the word that raises this issue, that Arhat is referring to, it's the way it is used that raises this issue. And, is there anything wrong with teaching respect? Well, no, that's not my point in all of this. I've always felt, as a teacher for many, many years (in medicine), that respect should be earned, and not demanded.

The other thing that is interesting, is the amount of people who are reading this thread, if you haven't noticed....

[arhat]

It does seem to be a rich vein...

[Maestro]

usually..

usually..you bet with people who have opposing views..

as for pizza i think we have different tastes..i dont like alot of shit on my pizza..when i eat pizza i dont want to eat bread with a ****in smorguesborge(spelling?ehehe) on top of it..

for me..the most ive ever had on a pizza and enjoyed it was..pepperoni, olives, and of course the cheese

besides that i usually just get the pepperoni..

but anyway enough about pizza!..freakin nyc pie is prolly bigger then my whole body..

anyway..

wood..doesnt think about things he says..

just like me, but he wont acknowledge it, cause hes like me

hes suffering from what i like to call..

younga$$holeitus

in lamens terms it means you say dumb shit, to mature people..with the idea that they are just "misunderstanding"

but im getting off subject..cause theres no cure for guys like us..only time anyway...

the point is..i forgot when dan and them freaked out about the wkk stuff..

but it sure is funny the situation were in now..i mean my god

the fun never ends with these people

maybe england just isnt as bad as they say..

hmmmmmmmm

[arhat]

just a word...

Originally posted by wooden dummy
Oh fer Christ's sake, this is getting so silly.

Look, it's just a word, okay?

He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that. Can we get on with talking about something that might actually be important or interesting, instead of arguing about the exact, precise significance and connotations of using one stupid word?

This is just my advice. There is an easy way to tell if it is indeed "just a word" or if it is indeed carefully chosen to create a certain illusion. For you guys, obviously the word holds little significance. But you can't get upset with those to whom the word means much much more, and when they try and share with you WHY the word SHOULD mean so much more you come back with "Hey I don't want to hear it." Okay- but they're trying to educate you to something you may not be aware of. You obviously aren't aware of. Especially if someone is a disciple and has been accepted into a gong fu family or Shaolin lineage, surely you can understand why to them the idea of "Sifu Dan" is a little much. You're basically telling people to get over it, when they don't want to get over it because it is one of the reasons they train, and in fact, provides the basis of their training. If it's just a word call WKK, "Hey Kiew Kit, what's up?" It is just a word right? I doubt WKK would feel the same, I mean look at how Dan went on and on about how we call Wong Kiew Kit WKK. He flipped his stack, I wonder why, they're just three letters? The why is because it's a word that sets up a certain framework, a framework in which it should be possible to achieve mastery. Anyway, I would be interested to see what would happen if any of you guys try my little test. Just walk into class and slap Dan on the back, don't bow or anything. Call him "Dan" and see what happens, next time you are in class. See if he smiles from his heart or if he says, hey look, you have to call me Sifu Dan. Maybe he'll blast you into Guan Yin's stellar dimension so she can have a sit down with you. Or call him "Teacher Dan." If he accepts it then you know it is just a word, a means of address and nothing more. If he corrects you, and tells you to call him Sifu then it is more than just a word, it's a scam, because he's riding a concept and making a claim that is impossible for him to make. I'll bet Vince a whole pizza that "sifu" Dan isn't going to like just being called 'Dan.'

In my view CMAs are under attack. Especially Shaolin. It's the next cash cow. An entire wall of a USD school I visited was dedicated to Shaolin merchandise. In my area alone there are more "Shaolin" and Kung Fu schools than you can shake a stick at. We need to hold on to our own and increase understanding. Last year they were pushing cardio kickboxing and kung fu bar mitsvahs. The damage done to American Karate is probably irreversible, mostly, in my opinion, due to the attitude that it is just a word foments. I feel like some things deserve the weight they are given. Why wouldn't you want to take the time to understand the concepts behind the words you use? I find that attitude fascinating. If any Tom Dick or Harry who happens to teach people a few "combat" sets can be called a Sifu, then I submit to you we are in deep doggy poo poo. In Karate, as soon as some people hit black belt they left their schools and opened their own. But they weren't finished with their schooling. Now imagine when their black belts split and did the same. And so on. Then real masters had to invent ridiculous levels to try and set themselves apart, 33rd degree Black Belt, 15th red slash Black Belt. It used to be a term that immediately commanded respect. Now it is practically a joke. There's a 6th grader I know who is a black belt. But hey, it's just a couple of words- doesn't mean anything at all. I just read a seminar solicitation that was sent to the Temple- it was how to maximise the dollar potential of your students, in 3 easy steps, you too can become a "Black Belt Millionaire," the secrets revealed for only one low fee of $695. Money back gaurantee if you're not making several hundred dollars more off your blackbelts in 3 months or some shit like that.

These things exist because of "it's just a word."

It is just a word, but it is a gateway to a concept that should mean something to you guys.

But anyway, you want to turn the topic to something more interesting be my guest.

[doc]

Then I assume from your statements, that you're voicing your opinion, and not stating a fact. That's what I thought you were doing.

[Maestro]

truth

truth is in the eye of the beholder docta

whether or not wkk is a fraud is up for debate..but not for me

whether or not hes a grandmaster of this or that is up for debate..but not for me

whether or not he claims to be a grandmaster of kung fu, chi kung, zen, taiji is not up for debate because he states it often

so whether or not he is what i said he is, is up for debate for those whom dont have the same perspective as me

but as for me, and from what ive gathered by researching wahnam and its students for a couple years now, ive come to the conclusion above..

but its all subjective anyway

[doc]

Maestro, I'm assuming that your comments about WKK are your opinion, and not claims of fact.

[Maestro]

course

of course you want to get off that subject

i would to if the place i trained at was under scrutiny

its interesting to me the only reason the wahnamites seem to want to join our community is to defend wkk

because really thats what this all comes down to..wkk and his lackeys were getting trashed..big time over here, and its no surprise since they give us more then enough ammunition

the point is this..these people come out of nowhere..so obviously wahnamites are watching what we do

they probably saw the high amount of peeps coming and going from the site and they figured theyd set things straight..

of course theres only one problem...

wkk is a fraud

pure and simple

i dont care what kind of chi flow you think your achieving or you are achieving or whatever

shaolin monks/disciples/laymen chan buddhists..etc all have one thing in common..they aspire to achieve a level of spiritual understanding that is above anything else in this world..mundane things have no place in the hearts and minds of true "wise men"

and when wkk claims to be not only a zen master..a shaolin grandmaster..a chi kung master..a taijijuan master..bla bla bla bla bla..

when he claims these things..and when he says the things he says..and does the things he does

i know, id never..ever, want to learn any sort of chan..kung fu..chi kung..or even see his ugly mug..ever

because hes just so simply wrong..it pains me to see other people training under him, because i get angry that people could be so niave..

i know.. even if he was "for real"..even if he chi kung could disperse clouds or have possibilitys to cure cancer or this and that..i still would never be his disciple or anything even close

but..its no matter

the amount of people he affects compared to..hmm lets say, the amount of people who even know about shaolin is so insignificant, i dont loose sleep over the subject

but i do get disturbed when some what intelligent people like wooden dummy or whomever else..buy into wkks mess..its just a shame people cant see through his titles and special abilitys claims and this and that..

but meh..rant over

[prajna]

Agreed.

[wooden dummy]

Oh fer Christ's sake, this is getting so silly.

Look, it's just a word, okay?

He's the teacher of the class, so ya tend to refer to him as sifu. There's really nothing more significant or especially meaningful in it than that. Can we get on with talking about something that might actually be important or interesting, instead of arguing about the exact, precise significance and connotations of using one stupid word?

[arhat]

I also find this somewhat troubling...

"Sifu is passing on exactly what us students need to know, at every step of the way, with much care and attention. Sifu only teaches us what he already knows well and can demonstrate with ease..."

Jordan I submit to you that you don't know any of this to say one way or the other. How do you know *exactly* what you need to know, except that "Sifu" Dan tells you what you need to know, and since he is presenting himself to you as "Sifu" how else or why should you question what you are being taught. That word sets up a matrix of transmission. If you were taught by a real master you might see the difference. How do you know what he knows well or not well, in comparison to other masters, since you yourself are a student?

[arhat]

Jordan...

Originally posted by jordanf
1 Year, 3 Years, 30 Years... I think skill, ability and responsibility etc are the more important issue(s) here, not the time spent.

Sifu (Sifu Hartwright) teaches us very competently. Sifu is passing on exactly what us students need to know, at every step of the way, with much care and attention. Sifu only teaches us what he already knows well and can demonstrate with ease - he does not need to “bs”…

I speak for myself of course, but I am sure Sifu’s other students would agree.

Regards,

Jordan.

I appreciate your sentiments and your loyalty to Dan. It must seem as though we are all coming down pretty hard on WKK and his students.

I just think you should know that that word Sifu carries certain connotations, especially in the world of martial arts, that frankly, are not really applicable to Dan. Or Anthony. Or Ronan. I'm sorry to tell it to you, I really am. If you were to meet other MA's, and they were to hear you call Dan "Sifu" they would rightfully assume certain things about him, which would be misplaced. When, and it would only be a matter of time, they found out the truth, this would reflect badly on you guys. Already you are getting a taste of this here. I'm sure Dan is a great aid for WKK and competent in teaching his material. A Teacher yes, and that is an honorable enough term. But Sifu- It's ballsy...it lacks class. It's hollow and misleading since it's used outside of WKK's circle. The fact of the matter is, Dan is not a master of Shaolin gong fu. It's similar to Steve DeMasco proclaiming himself "Shaolin Grandmaster." Such misplaced titles cheapen the arts. You mention three important concepts. Only time spent develops skill, ability, and responsibility to the level needed to use the title "Sifu" otherwise any old person could be one, and if you look around you I hope you might notice the problem here- that is what is destroying the Japanese styles here in the states, for example. Everyone's a blackbelt to the Nth degree and it renders that strip of stitched fabric all but meaningless, especially when you have these watered down black belts teaching, then their blackbelts split and go off to teach, and so on, when the first never deserved the title in the first place. It waters down the meaning when people who are not masters call themselves, or have others name them "Master." He's pretty lucky there are no dojo busters around. I've seen the sparring vid. "Sifu" Dan would get mopped up by other, real live Sifus. Using that word automatically places him at their level, a level at which he doesn't belong.

It is impossible, by definition of the concept, to achieve mastery in one year, no matter how great your skill. With great skill comes fantastic responsibilities which only the passage of time can hone into mastery.

Please think about it.